While not directly connected with the Idaho Falls area, I did feel this story would give charge to a very interesting debate amongst the local readers and contributors. Regardless of your politics or moral compass, this should not happen here in the United States, nor any country for that matter.
A recent UK article tells of an 18-year-old Florida womans, Sycloria Williams, 2006 visit to an abortion clinic, located just outside of Miami, in order to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.
Now, two and a half years later, the young woman is suing the Florida clinic for “botching” her abortion by allowing her child to be born alive, and then placing the baby into a plastic bag and throwing the newborn out with the trash.
Allegedly, the doctor (Dr Renelique) did not arrive in time and Ms. Williams went into premature labor, delivering a live baby girl. Then, one of the clinic’s (un-licensed) owners cut the infant’s umbilical cord, placed the newborn into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
Police, one week later, recovered the decomposing remains of the infant child, found in a cardboard box, only after receiving anonymous tips. An autopsy revealed air in the baby girl’s lungs – proving that she was born alive and breathing.
Now, our President and Congressional leaders want to re-implement the funding of overseas entities that assist in family planning – aka abortions. I guess we’ll never learn.
(I encourage you to read the background and story concerning this post – notes and links provided below. Note that the youngest premature baby to ever survive, Amillia Taylor, was born at just 21 weeks and six days.)
Background and story: According to state records, Dr Renelique received his medical training at the State University of Haiti. In 1991, he completed a four-year residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Interfaith Medical Center in New York.
New York records show that Dr Renelique has made at least five medical malpractice payments in the past decade, the circumstances of which were not detailed in the filings.
According to Williams’ attorney, Ms. Williams struggled with the decision to have an abortion, Pennekamp said. Williams concluded she did not have the resources or maturity to raise a child, he said, and went to the Miramar Women’s Center on July 17, 2006.
Sonograms indicated she was 23 weeks pregnant, according to the Department of Health. She met Dr Renelique at a second clinic two days later. Dr Renelique gave Ms Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix, and prescribed three other medications, according to the administrative complaint filed by the Health Department.
She was told to go to yet another clinic, A Gyn Diagnostic Center in Hialeah, where the procedure would be performed the next day, on July 20, 2006. Ms Williams arrived in the morning and was given more medication.
The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon, she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Dr Renelique. Two hours later, he still had not shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.
‘She came face to face with a human being,’ Pennekamp said. ‘And that changed everything.’
The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can.
Ms Williams’ lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Ms Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby’s umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Ms Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.
At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived.
An autopsy determined Williams’ baby — she named her Shanice — had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity.
The Department of Health believes Dr Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Ms Williams was there, among other missteps.
The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Dr Renelique’s license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records.
Should prosecutors file murder charges, they would have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport.
The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said.
‘Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual,’ Mr Batey said. ‘And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case.’
(Source: UK’s Daily Mail, Foreign Service)
Related links:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/02/06/renelinque.pdf
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/florida.abortion/index.html
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{ 63 comments… read them below or add one }
Pathetic that you had to take your partisan shot at Obama in this considering this happened in 2006, nearly three years before Obama took office.
I can pretty much guarantee you that nearly all pro choice people are just as appalled as pro life over what happened.
Although the glaringly illegal and inhumane actions occurred approximately two and a half years ago, laws regarding abortions and their safety have not changed since then. Still, our President has expanded the scope of where abortions can be performed BEFORE assuring their legality and safety.
Pro-Choice – The choice to either keep your dick in your pants or the pole out of your hole. Abstinence, simple as that. Abortion as a method of birth control is absurd.
Rape victims, health issues…that’s a different discussion and not what I’m focusing on with the above.
Women will seek & obtain abortions in this country, whether or not they are legal.
So my question is to the folks who want to overturn Roe V. Wade & allow states to criminalize all abortions – what do you think the appropriate punishment should be for the women who continue to seek abortions?
What happened here is a crime & a terrible tragedy. All states have limits on when during the pregnancy an abortion can be performed. I happen to support a woman’s right to choose, based on those limits. How about reducing abortions by providing better birth control options & education; do you folks who oppose choice at least support that idea?
And one final question for Joe P – why should a woman overseas not have the same options as women in this country? Why the double standard?
ooh_child – Read my post above. Abstain if you don’t want children…they are a natural side-effect of sex, in case you hadn’t heard.
People are going to sleep together, that’s just a fact of life. Abstinence is a ridiculous option in my opinion. And birth control is not always 100%, no matter what the method. My brother had a vasectomy a few years ago and went that route as opposed to using a condom the rest of his life. He had two children and didn’t want anymore. His wife wasn’t able to have children due to complications with her uterus. Imagine their surprise when she got pregnant! A double whammy and they beat just about the highest odds for not getting pregnant there are. So no matter how much planning you do to prevent a pregnancy, there’s always that chance and in my opinion, women should have the right to do what they want with their bodies. And as Oohchild mentioned, there are laws in place in each state that limit the time an abortion can be performed.
But telling people not to have sex….is like telling someone not to breathe, it ain’t happenin.
btw…..they kept the child. But I still think it’s the womans right to choose.
Not asking people not to bone, just not to be surprised at the result.
And the man doesn’t have the right to choose? What if he really wants to raise that child and she just wants to get rid of it because it’s bothersome to her schedule?
Marcus, are you avoiding my questions? Do you think abortion should be criminalized, except in the cases of rape or health? If you do, what should the penalty be to the women who seek an illegal abortion?
Do you support better birth control options & education in order to reduce unwanted pregnancies?
I took the “partisan shot” because it is a fact. It bothers me that Obama and the gang plan to spend more of our taxpayer money on abortions. It bothers me that he plans to spend more of our hard earned money and send it overseas.
Thumbs up Wendyjo!
I guess there’s no holding Marcus back – blunt, very blunt, but well said.
Ooh_child – No double standard here on my part. I do not support an abortion here in the US or abroad. Comepletely pro-life.
Is it really allowed on this discussion forum to just copy and paste articles written by others and not even cite the author. This article is about nine tenths opinion and the rest is just copy and pasted. Then at the bottom, it says for more info see these cnn sites. Sorry, but you copy and pasted the more info part, and its absurd that this is allowed by the moderators. On another note, most animals throughout the world will kill, abandon, or eat their offspring if they are facing harsh environmental conditions, food depravation, or other stresses such as captivity. Humans are just as adept at recognising stressful conditions and as a matter of instinct in some cases the mother will end her pregnancy.
The only thing different about humans is that they seem to end the offsprings life before its born, whereas animals wait till after its born. so yes we are different than animals, but we are still on a planet surrounded by other mamals and various forms of life that kill their offspring. If a father wants to take care of the child however (if mom knows who that is) he should be allowed to. Looking at the number of men who abandon, or dont pay child support though I doubt many would go for that.
CR67 – First, kudos to your brother and sister-in-law. I agree that teaching abstinence is very difficult these days. Nonetheless, it is an option that should still be taught. Something else that should be taught is RESPONSIBILITY. I know and realize that people are not going to stop messing around sexually; however, we must all take responsibility for our actions. Use birth control, use it correctly, and realize that nothing is guaranteed (except death and taxes – unless you’re an Obama appointee – sorry, couldn’t resist). Abortion is not an option for one’s lack of control, planning, or responsibility. Why should a life have to end because someone is not grown up enough to accept the consequences?
ooh_child – If abortions were illegal, I would propose prison for those doctors (and others) performing them, as well as the woman seeking them. Yes, I would support better birth control options and education programs.
I have to young men in my family right now who are going through horrible issues because they had babies with girls who are not only irresponsible, but law breakers and more.
Before someone jumps on it, I’ll say that both of these young men are aware of what got them here and neither of them are in any sort of denial as far as their responsibility. Both of these men are trying to get custody.
My point is that I think stories such as these could be beneficial in sex education. You can tell a teen over and over to abstain, scare them with pregnancy and STD’s and I suppose it will work to a point.
Tell teens about a lifetime (or at least 18 years) attached to a psycho that uses your kids as a wedge to force you to do their bidding. Tell teens about having to deal with this person garnishing your checks and tax returns for medical bills, the lawyer bills, the constant phone calls for one stupid thing or another. Tell them about how fun it is to try to start a new relationship with this person in your life.
And if you think you can just call child services and have the whole thing taken care of, think again.
I don’t know if that would scare people into using more birth control, but it may be worth a try.
Actually, you stated:
“So my question is to the folks who want to overturn Roe V. Wade & allow states to criminalize all abortions…”
So I disregarded.
Now that you’ve asked me a question, instead of asking people that believe what you thought I believed, I’ll be happy to answer.
In my opinion, the only acceptable time to abort a fetus is either
A.) If the mother is a rape victim (adoption is a better option) or
B.) If continuing the pregnancy is a health risk to the mother.
Also in my opinion, the state / federal government needs to get the hell out of our lives and let us live them according to our plan as long as we abide by and uphold The Constitution. So, do I believe that abortions should be criminalized? Not necessarily.
The Declaration of Independence:
“That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.”
The Declaration of Independence is not The Constitution, but it set the stage for The Constitution. Whether abortion is criminal or not under The Declaration of Independence / The Constitution depends on whether a fetus is considered a separate living organism inside the womb or not. There are some guidelines around when it is OK to abort your fetus and when it isn’t, and I’d have to say that I agree with them, based loosely around my personal definition of “life”.
I would have to say that no, abortion used as birth control should not be a criminal offense. If you are insensitive and selfish enough to end the great potential of a life before it is even allowed to start, criminal action won’t really benefit you.
On birth control, it’s up to pharmaceutical companies to come up with “better” birth control options and education. I don’t want any government resources dedicated to it, they’re already off-base enough without getting muddled up in this as well.
As for unwanted pregnancies, if you don’t have sex you don’t make babies. If it is so hard to abstain from sexual intercourse, go buy yourself some condoms, birth control pills, pull out, or spend 18+ years bettering the world by raising a child. A kid is not a curse, just a reality check. Take responsibility for your actions and raise your child instead of throwing him away, that’s what that I’m all about. I don’t give a damn about the laws around it.
I have three beautiful children, only one of which I took part in creating. I’m absolutely overjoyed that the first two were not denied their chance at life simply because their mother was struggling and single, and that I was allowed to step into their lives and assume the position of father.
My wife knew the consequences of her actions and took them, and she is one of the strongest women that I know because of it. She starved to feed those kids, her dead beat sister, and her sister’s child for three years before I stepped into the picture, and not once did she jump at food stamps or welfare to get by.
None of us are any better off than the junkie down the street that can’t come up with enough money to put a hot meal in his belly…we’re just not spending our money on junk. If you are struggling right now, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and revise the way that you are living. Spend more wisely, prioritize your purchases, and don’t take on unnecessary expenses (such as children, even if that means keeping your dick in your pants).
I’ve gone quite a bit off topic, and I apologize, hopefully it won’t continue to go astray.
Alice – Went through the visitation thing about a year ago, for an entire year…that was not a fun series of events, and custody would be even less so. I’m very happy that my wife never married him, made it MUCH easier (she hold sole custody by default).
Quite the opposite in these two individuals’ situations though I would imagine – Idaho is a mother state.
So Joe, you would put women in prison for seeking an abortion. How many prisons would you estimate would have to be built in order to house all those criminals? Would you also force the women to raise the children, once they were born, or would you force them to give them up for adoption? And how would the state pay for all the additional expense of housing these criminals, and providing foster care for the children, should you determine the children should be taken from these criminal women?
Thanks for the response, Marcus. I think you’re not particularly realistic, since unwanted pregnancies have been occuring for thousands of years. “Just say no” may be an option, and it may fit into your black & white thinking, but shades of grey are the reality of life.
BTW, I’ve had plenty of sex over the years, and not one unwanted pregnancy. I had a basic sex education covering the appropriate times of my life, and used that education to keep myself without unwanted or unintended children. Lots of people have. It’s not impossible to have plenty of sex & not get pregnant until one is ready to raise children.
Glad to hear that you can move your hips ooh_child, but it doesn’t really interest me. I’m glad that you kept the beams from crossing, whatever the case.
You people keep bringing up “black and white” when replying to me, and I just don’t get it. There was plenty of “grey” behind my text above.
“Unwanted Pregnancy” is a decently ugly word, but doesn’t quite cover the problem. “Unwanted Child” is more like it. If you don’t want to procreate, and you don’t want to take the chance on birth control failing, don’t have sex. By having sex, you enter into an agreement to raise a child should you create one.
You know, maybe you should try having a child. It might be good for you. Without having that experience under your belt, you really have no place in this debate.
I just re-read your post, and realized that you never expressly stated that you have not had children. If you have had children, how can you possibly be pro-abortion? You can’t claim pro-choice, because choice comes in before pregnancy.
I support a woman’s right to choose. So long as it doesn’t take away a child’s right to live.
if a child has a right to live, then why do so many die before they are born without abortion? what about a childs right to be wanted by their parents? Or their right to have healthcare? Isnt it funny that so many conservatives oppose childrens health care and oppose abortion too? these poor kids with poor parents that made mistakes have to live hard lives and more than likely become criminals with missing teeth and poor eyesight because they had a right to live.
What it really comes down to is the misuse of the word right. Rights, even if the term is used correctly, are not gaurunteed anyway and throwing out bumpersticker phrases that seem clever only serves to incite bumpersticker phrases back. It is impossible to assess the value of a life, or life based on its potential. Only after someone has contributed to society can we say they have rights, all other is pure speculation. And we shouldnt be writing laws based on what if’s, potentials, or speculation. We all have potential but do we use it, would we if there were laws forcing us to, should we pass laws that protect potential?
Let’s say that 15 fetuses were set to be aborted today, but aren’t. These fetuses go on to be babies, toddlers, children, teens, etc. 25 years down the road, 12 of these almost aborted people are sitting on their asses, occassionally doing recreational drugs in their spare time, and working at fast food joints. The other 3 are fresh out of college, heading into skilled jobs, well on their way to a comfortable retirement already.
2 years later, 3 of the 12 quit the doping and turn their lives around. At this point they’re managers in fast food, and they make a move to retail / sales. Their life is looking up. The other 9 are still kind of fooling around, but more or less making it and enjoying themselves. 1 of the 3 college grads HATES the field that he got involved in, and decides that auto sales is the place to be, while the other two excel in their positions.
Flash forward 3 years, the whole group is now 30. Of the remaining 9 junk head fast food workers, 2 are still occassionally doing drugs and working fast food, 1 overdosed, and the other 6 have moved on to some sort of clerical / administrative work.
The college grad set on auto sales hit $75,000 last year, and can’t be happier…but loses his job because he failed a urinalysis. Seems that even success stories have their faults.
The other two college grads? Who knows, they’re doing what they need to do to get by. They probably have families at this point.
The probability of a child ending up being a screw-up criminal is no reason to condemn the life. If even 10% (and I’m positive the number is higher) of almost aborted fetuses end up being successful, it is worth keeping every single one.
Kids take their lumps, and they survive. Bad teeth, poor eyesight, shitty parents…doesn’t matter. They get by, they adapt, they grow, they thrive. Children are far more capable than you give them credit for.
Your attitude is sickening. When it comes to probability, always assume the positive. Don’t condemn a life that has yet to start over a probability. There are plenty of grown-ups that we can get rid of and very few people would care…don’t throw away the kids.
Marcus, lots of women have children & are pro-choice. It’s not a black & white issue.
Lots of women had abortions & went on to raise loved & planned for children. Many other women have children, then go on to have abortions, due to unseen circumstances.
And some women don’t have any kids but do have an opinion about abortion rights. Men don’t bear children, and yet they are entitled to their opinions about the subject, too.
You’re reaching, brother.
A move from fast food to “retail/sales” is “a life that’s looking up”. ROFL!! Now that’s good comedy there Marcus!
I think this is one of those topic where we’ll have to agree to disagree. Nobody is going to change anyone elses mind on this issue. I don’t think abortion should be used as “birth control”, but it’s certainly the womens right to give up said fetus if she so chooses. And Roe VS Wade has given us that right as citizens of this United States. And until you decide to get that law overturned, what’s the point in arguing about it? (which by the way will never happen in our lifetimes)
But good luck with that.
I’m arguing the principal, not the law.
Retail / sales is definitely better than fast food in my eyes. A rung is a rung, and in the end we still need retail / sales and fast food workers…work chain. Some people stay in it, and I’m glad that those people (for now) aren’t me.
My point was, they don’t all turn into criminals, and shouldn’t be placed in that category by default and marked as a loss before their worth is proven.
I don’t want it written into law, I want people to know and understand that this is the case. Let anybody that wants an abortion get one. I really don’t care what somebody else does with their body, it’s really none of my business…but I will speak my personal viewpoint on the issue.
Nothing I ever say has anything to do with enacting laws. In fact, most of it has to do with tearing limitation on the people down. Get rid of unnecessary government…let the people think for themselves.
Anyway, have a good evening folks.
Good points, but how can you say “let the people think for themselves”, but not to the point where they can choose whether or not to have an abortion?
I did say that, third paragraph.
My bad…..should have read it more thoroughly.
The sick justifications that some of the “Pro-choice” people have made in this thread makes me want to vomit. I would probably remain silent were it not for personal experience. Three years ago my daughter figured she was old enough to “choose”. She chose sex and got pregnant and subsequently an abortion. I knew nothing about it. Then in a demonstration of her innate ability to choose, she got pregnant again. This time however we found out and were able to rescue the little person before his life was ended. He is incredible. I regret that I will never know his sibling whom I certain would have been just as outstanding. Shame on all the selfish, sex-crazed, toads that can’t see past their own petty gratification.
are you also referring to your daughter as one of “the selfish, sex-crazed, toads that can’t see past their own petty gratification.”
I’m pro choice, but what sickens me is all these slutty girls that parents raise today. Nowadays it appears to be acceptable for the 15 year old to keep her baby while the 31 year old grandma helps take care of it. Possibly in the future much more will be acceptable, we’ll have the 11 year old keeping her child and everyone throwing a baby shower for her. Teach your daughters some self respect, you dont have to have sex to be a big girl.
Not Crystal, I agree with you. Mark this date down!
I am pro-choice also. One question that I have always had about the pro-lifers, where are they after the baby is born? It seems to me that they are more interested in the baby before it is born than they are after. I have a family member who to date has adopted four babies. Adoption is not an easy process, nor is it cheap. A lot of people would not be able to afford it. Each adoption has cost them between $10-$20,000 for non-Caucasians. Caucasion babies are more expensive.
Marcus’s comment (#26) might have some merit to it, but there are too many cases where the baby/young child are raised in filth, neglect and abuse. If they are raised on welfare, chances are they will become welfare recipients also.
It may be horribly expensive to adopt, but it seems that more often than not there are shortages of available babies, not adoptive parents.
The red tape, I’m sure is necessary, but it is a horrible mess, probably moreso than the expense.
I’m not 100% against abortion, it has it’s place, but I would much rather see a baby born and adopted by a loving family that has lots to give than to be born into a horrible situation or aborted.
I wonder what the stats are. Is there a shortage of babies for loving adoptive families?
White, healthy infants? Probably, Alice. Children of all colors, ages, and with specific needs or handicaps? Absolutely not.
Our foster care system is bursting at the seams, and Joe Plumber wants to put an even greater burden on it, by placing women in prison if they seek an abortion. The logical extension of that kind of thinking would be to take the resulting children away from their criminal mothers and placing them in foster care. I’m still waiting to hear from Joe with his plans to pay for a system like that.
Yes there definitely is and “ideal” and there is a “cold hard reality”. I think that’s why these decisions are so difficult.
We want life to be all sunshine and lollipops, but it’s not, and there has to be hard choices made.
This would be why I’m not a politician ; )
I honestly believe that more babies and children would be adopted out of the foster care system if there were not so much red tape. It is insane to think how expensive and difficult it is to adopt a child here in the US, or most Western nations.
ooh_child - Thanks for your patience in my responding. As for prison… Have you ever heard of Sheriff Joe out of AZ (http://www.mcso.org/ )? If we could only get other prisons in the US to operate in a similar fashion, there would be a significant tax savings for the US people. Sheriff Joe is the guys who houses the inmates in tents w/o AC, and has reduced the cost to feed them down to 15 cents per meal per inmate. Oh yes, he only allows them to watch CSPAN, the Weather Channel, and some cartoon channel – since the federal gov’t requires that prisons carry cable for their inmates.
Think about it, the third largest portion of Idaho’s budget goes towards corrections. In fact, corrections rank between second and fourth in most states.
Implementing a program like Maricopa County would also deter people from breaking the law, including abortion if it were illegal.
Yes Joe, I’m familiar with what he’s doing in Arizona. You honestly believe that you can incarcerate pregnant women like that, in tents? What about pre-natal care? What about high-risk pregnancies? Do you really believe pregnant women can carry a pregnancy to term & deliver a healthy baby on a diet of bologna & cheese sandwiches?
You’re not being realistic about the foster care and adoption systems in this country, either. You’re talking about dumping a million+ babies per year into the system, if most women seeking an abortion are instead compelled to carry the pregnancy to term & then place the child for adoption. You really believe that by reducing “red tape” there would be enough families available to take on all those kids? Would you support gay & lesbian couples adopting some of these kids, or single parent adoption? My bet is, you wouldn’t.
Luckily, most people are more in tune with the realities surrounding this problem. I think you’re living in la-la land!
ooh_child: I thought we were talking about women who had already aborted their child and found guilty of the abortion. Yes, I would support those women being confined to prison, because in my eyes that is murder.
As for the state of adoption here in the US, yes I do believe we would see more adoptions. My sister and her husband would love to adopt a child – gender, race, or handicap does not matter. The problem is the cost. They both have good jobs, unfortunately, to adopt they need to provide proof of a sizable savings, yet they would need to deplete that savings to afford the fees involved with the adoption. Quite ironic.
Joe, don’t be silly. If abortions were outlawed in this country, of course women who just seek that option would be jailed. There wouldn’t be any clinics advertising the procedure. Women would be set up in sting operations, with false doctors and legal representatives (with orders to prosecute) putting out info to lure these women in.
A million plus women have abortions in this country every year. If that option was taken away, they would seek this alternative secretly. Thus, jailing them before they achieve their goal would be the logical outcome.
I don’t think you’ve really thought this through. (Anybody else a fan of “Meet the Robinson’s”?)
Joe, I know of a couple here in Idaho Falls who adopted a baby and to finance it, they remortgaged their home. Yes, adoption is expensive. See my post #36.
A lot of you are probably too young to remember when it was illegal to get an abortion in the USA. Back alley botched abortions were being done, going across the border to Mexico, self abortions. I was very young before Roe v Wade, but I do remember hearing the adults talking about these “Abortions”. Many times the mothers would not make it through the abortion either. To make abortion illegal again would be to go back to those days. No thanks. Do you really want Big Brother telling you what you can and cannot do with your body?
I believe that abortions should be allowed with limitations. However, along with this we should supply more support to mothers who would rather give the babies up for adoption.
I have known girls that have literally been sent to the street by their parents when they discovered they were pregnant. I would hope that most girls would have more supportive family, but if they don’t, I hope there is somewhere that these girls can go.
The ones I knew simply disappeared, so I really don’t know what happened in the end. I hope they went to family out of the area.
As is the case with the thounds-year-old dilema raging on in the Middle East, there will NEVER be a right or wrong answer to the question of abortion, since it the answer on both sides is based on personal beliefs.
For the record, I am personally anti-abortion (I use that term because I refuse to be labeled along side the yahoos who call themselves pro-life, but who mostly favor the death penalty), but I also believe in a woman’s right to choose. Let us remember that GOD gave that right and who the heck are we as humans to remove it?
That said, I believe the only “solution” (for lack of a better term) here, as in the case between Israel and Palestine is…compromise.
How about this as a jumping off point?…A woman retains the right to choose to abort a pregnancy. However, in an effort to rightfully place her with responsibility for (the consequence of) her actions, terminating a pregnancy must occur within the first trimester. Certainly 90 days is more than enough time to make that decision. If not then yes, perhaps twins beds or a “toy” might be better suited to address your carnal needs. Women who are wishing to terminate a pregnancy after the first trimester can place their child up for adoption, with the adoptive families footing the bill for the remainder of the pregnancy (Lord knows there are more than enough qualified parents out there looking to adopt newborns).
Add to this: enhanced birth control/family planning options and access, “intelligent education” (and no, abstinence is NOT education. I agree with promoting it…IN THE HOMES WHERE FAR TOO LITTLE DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC EXISTS…but to consider it effective or education…well just look at the numbers during the “Shrub” presidency.
No, this isn’t a complete or final answer, but I believe a good starting point. Comments?
#42, (Jo) so here is my question, you said that for the women that have already had the abortion, you would “support those women being confined to prison”.
Why the women? What if the boyfriends gave the ok, but when it came to fessing up, the boyfriend said that he didn’t know about it. Should it only be the women’s fault?
I agree with comment #45, I know of many girls that the parent’s have thrown them out when they got pregnant. Or the parent’s sent them “away” or made them go to counseling.
As a matter a fact, I got pregnant when I was 18. My parents made me to to counseling thew an adoptions agency. I got to the point where I had 2 families I was going to pick, but backed out. IT WAS HARD!
But to tell you the truth, you cannot judge a person until you walk a mile in their shoe. If there is a punishment for the mother, then the father should be involved too.
Somehow people always want to blame someone else for the situation going badly. Not discussing wome’s rights and whether we agree or disagree, the 18 year old was old enough to make the choice to terminate the pregnancy. although late in pregnancy. If she would have chosen to do so earlier there would have been 100xs less of a chance that there would be anything to classify this as a “fetus” and would it have been tissue. This girl clearly did not care and did not want to consider if this ‘baby’ would have been a breathing human being but more of an inconvience and a mistake. What is with this two years later thing also? Sounds like someone has gotten poor legal advice. She needs to move on and quit persuing the quick buck.
Okay, I have a question. By practicing birth control, aren’t people essentially committing an abortion before instead of after?
Of course not. Birth control, via the birth control pill, the patch, the injection or the IUD, etc, prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, therefore becoming a fetus and eventually a newborn.
Even if a harsh way of preventing life, it is effective and much less deadly way of preventing life than by aborting a living embryo or fetus.
And an abortion performed within the prescribed timelines as laid out by law, by a profossional in a medical setting, is safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. More women die in childbirth than die from safe, legal abortions. Still want to pursue than line of thinking, Wendyjo?
This reminds me of a debate we had in college a hundred years ago (actually in the 60’s) about abortion. At the time, the general consensus was that birth control and abortion both had the same end result — prevention of life. Now, I’m wondering if “Wondering” and I went to college together.
I have two childrena nd love them dearly, I am also pregnant with a third and am very excited about its impending birth, but I am also “Pro-choice.” I don’t want any of you to get the wrong idea and think that I am all for abortion, because I am not, but I do believe that a woman or couple, has the right to choose.
I find that most views on this topic are black and white, but what about the grey. There are many reasons why a woman would consider abortion, but that woman is only viewed as “good” or “bad” depending on what choice shes made, regardless of the circumstances.
What I find even worse, is that society has chosen to judge these women and condemn them based on someones opinion.
Also, in previous posts, i have read that some people feel abortion is murder. So with that in mind, miscarriage could be considered involuntary manslaughter, right?
ooh_child: And an abortion performed within the prescribed timelines as laid out by law, by a profossional in a medical setting, is safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. More women die in childbirth than die from safe, legal abortions. Still want to pursue than line of thinking, Wendyjo?
Wrong, OC, in civilized countries, adult women giving birth of a planned pregnancy only occasionally experience complications and even those difficulties are usually expected.
In third worlds, where abortions aren’t offered, difficult births, spontaneous abortions, and even maternal deaths related to pregnancy and child birth are not uncommon; unfortunately.
Teenage pregnancies, of which the USA suffers a shameful rate, does afford more risk to it’s potential mother’s well being during pregnancy and delivery. Why? Because the mothers’ bodies aren’t usually mature enough to afford the extreme changes and abuse pregnancy and delivery requires of their bodies.
Does that make it more humane to allow them to abort a brand new human being? Perhaps. More humane is to teach our children to respect their bodies, to teach them to say “NO,” to let them know they can talk to their parents, that they will be assisted to use birth control if needed, and that abortion should NEVER be an option if it can be avoided.
There are too many answers available to take the last deadly stand.
You’re the one who’s misinformed, Wendyjo. Maternal mortality rates in this country during childbirth are higher than those due to abortion.
“In recent years, though, the U.S. maternal mortality rate has crept back up and is now 15.1 deaths per 100,000 births, according to 2005 death figures.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jul/27/childbirth-deaths-increase-in-us/
:The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.”
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
“Eighty-nine percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, 2004.” (from the above source)
As long as the abortion is performed early on, as is 89% of the cases in this country, maternal death is much lower than the rate of maternal death due to childbirth.
And as you point out, the rates are much higher in other parts of the world.
You know, back in about comment #35 or so “supposedly I’m crystal” responded to my comment regarding my experiences with my daughter and her abortion. The assumption on your part crystal, that she was perhaps a fifteen year old “slut” with no moral upbringing is incorrect. In fact the opposite is true. At the time she was twenty and married. For for all of the years she lived in our home, she was taught the virtues of life as best we could, but as “pro choice” would indicate, she chose for herself. Oh, by the way, I’m not her 31 year old mother but rather her fifty year old dad. Be careful with that word, assume.
Well i’m curious then……..Three years ago my daughter figured she was old enough to “choose”. She chose sex and got pregnant and subsequently an abortion. I knew nothing about it. Then in a demonstration of her innate ability to choose, she got pregnant again.
So you are talking about a married woman? I think if she is/was married, then obviously she was old enough to choose to have sex! You’re talking about her like she doesnt have the mental ability to decide to have sex or to have an abortion. I dont know what your family function is like………..but why did she get married is if she thought she was old enough to choose sex? You sound like she wasnt…my mind boggles
My whole point was that people, married or not are using abortion to have sex and then escape responsibilty and obligation. Unless you just don’t believe in a god at all; I don’t understand how anyone (including my daughter) can be so cavilier?
Wow Terrismail….you sound severely uninformed. How many people do you personally know that have had an abortion? And how many of them USE abortion to have sex and then escape responsibility & obligation? I seriously doubt you know very many.
And what every seems to forget here is and thanks to Roe Vs Wade, abortion is legal in our country. Whether YOU like it or not. Whether YOU think it’s moral or immoral. Whether YOU think it’s killing a human life. The point is, it’s legal to get an abortion within a certain time frame and I’d much rather see that pregnancy ended than have another welfare mouth to support with my tax dollars. And until YOU sir and all the pro lifers out there decide to do something about changing the laws, don’t tell us pro choicers we’re being cavalier about it all. Thank you
wow anynonmouse… I guess I touched a nerve, but really, did you read my previous posts? I never questioned legality or stated my view of Roe v. Wade. Whether I know many people who have used abortion to avoid obligation is irrelevant to me because I know one. But you tell me; Excepting that abortions are performed for health concerns and in cases of rape/incest, what is the reason for so many if not to escape responsibilty and obligation for ones actions? One more question; Why do we have to assume that because a baby is born in a less than ideal situation, that it must automatically become a welfare child? Is it part of the same mentality that says ‘I’m not responsible for my own actions so let someone else take care of me and mine’ or is it simply a way to reconcile one’s own doubts and ease one’s conscience?
WOW is all I can say. I believe that as women we should have the right to say what happens to our bodies and this ridiculous notion that if we have sex that we better be ready for children oh my GOSH!!!! Teenagers and people that have experienced love know that when sex occurs the last thing on the mind is children. Right of Wrong BUT TRUE!!!!! Mistakes and accidents happen. The men are free to keep living lives as if nothing happened. The women depending on their circumstances have to change EVERYTHING. It is not just medical care but the women carry the burden mentally and physically. I have known several women who have had abortions and several women that have considered it then decided against it. Both scenarios were extremely hard to deal with for these women. Instead of judging and hating more people should understand where some of these women come from and the heartache they experience with the burden of the huge decision. One guy after this women told him that she was pregnant (she was engaged to him) literally disappeared and she WAS alone. She did have the child and to this day this child has never met his dad. Another friend who did have an abortion says it saved her life not having a child. The father ended up in prison for child molestation of his own daughter. Any way you look at a situation no one can judge because you do not know what people struggle with.
Whether or not if you and I agree or disagree with their decision to have an abortion doesn’t matter. You can protest outside an abortion clinic until your feet bleed…the fact is that if they want to have an abortion they will. At the end of the day you and I personally aren’t like going to take care of that child. There are too many children born into this world that are either abandoned or abuse. Who are we to make or force our beliefs on others? This is an issue that is gonna be talked about for years but nothing is going to change. If abortion becomes illegal women are going to find ways to do it. Then what?
We have an obligation to enact laws that protect those who cannot protect themselves. I believe it is wrong to kill a 1 day old baby. Society agrees, there are laws that say that it is murder. Then why is it OK to kill an unborn baby? Is it OK to kill a baby 1 day before birth? 2 days? The fact that the baby is inside the mom and not outside doesn’t make a difference.
Have you ever held a day old baby in your arms and thought I think it’s OK to sever this baby’s spinal cord and put a tube in it brain and suck it out. I’m the mother, without me this baby would never have been born so I can do with it what I will.
The argument that even if it is illegal women will still try to get an abortion, while that is true it’s a poor argument. It’s the same as saying “bad people will rob banks or rape women so let’s make it legal to rob banks and rape women”. If we make rape legal I bet the number of rapes would go through the roof.
If abortion is illegal and there are some consequences (prison time) there will be less abortions. You are right, having unwanted children that will be neglected and abused is a bad thing. So, how about making it easier to adopt a child. We tried to adopt a child after we found out that we could not have any more children. We had to go out of the country to Bolivia. We were put in contact with a doctor in Bolivia. Everything was good to go after a 2 year process. Then the Bolivia government was over thrown and we were out of luck.
There were a few good things about the Bolivia adoption process (before the government changed). It was only for unwed mothers. The mom would get funds for education or to start a business. The funds were not just handed over they were paid directly to the collage or for business needs.