Opposable Thumbs - Beliefs, Identity, and Commenting on Commenting
Have something to say? ADD A NEW POST!
If you're new here, you may want to subscribe to the newsletter or RSS feed. Thanks for visiting!
This is posted very soon after a really good post from a “Guest Writer”about a very important topic - the level of transparency of our local government. So please read that post and share your perspective if you haven’t already.
This post was sparked by the recent project of implementing a basic comments ratings system. I am not the owner of this site (Joe) but my goal is to start a useful discussion for him to take under consideration as the site continues to evolve. I’ve decided that the actual post will be more about general reminders/suggestions for us as individuals to keep in mind (not pointing the finger at others).
In addition to the more obvious things like “Be courteous and respectful”, here are some reminders or suggestions that will make the comments more healthy for us as individuals and the community as a whole. I am preaching to myself here too for I have have been guilty as well.
- Avoid whining about other’s behavior as much as you can - this includes whining about other people whining!
- Avoid ad-hominem arguments (attacking the person rather than the idea).
- Grow a thicker skin.
Growing a thicker skin is tough and it’s something I struggle with when certain “buttons” are pushed as well. Here is something in particular I’ve found useful to keep in mind to help grow additional layers under the epidermis:
- While they certainly influence each other, you are more than your beliefs. When someone is challenging your belief and idea it is not the same as attacking you as a person. I am not talking about convictions that are closer to our identity like a belief or non-belief in God, love for your family, etc. I’ll Photoshop a rough and incomplete model of how I see some of the things related to this:
The above model is just that, a model of something to help visualize abstract concepts, not the “something” itself. I realize there are many other concepts touched on in the above diagram. When I opened up Photoshop I only intended to have two different items to show that they aren’t the same thing (identity and beliefs). I decided to just keep going with it in order to provide some context. For this thread I’m only trying to make the point that while our beliefs are a part of us, they are not synonymous with “us”. Keeping this in mind as often as possible will at least buy us much more time before someone else is able to make us feel bruised. Anything else about the rough model above can be brought up in another post (please feel free).
This brings us to some goals (as I see it) of beginning to implement a comment rating system:
- Encourage more people to be more sincere, civil, accountable for what they say, add value to the discussion, while (somehow) maintaining anonymity too.
- Reduce the need for direct intervention by Joe or an administrator in discussions. The more often someone has to intervene the more it will be interpreted as “taking sides”. This is a lose-lose last resort situation for the website which results in people leaving or being removed from the site and feelings that they aren’t being treated fairly.
- Provide simple aggregate data for readers that helps make their own judgment and eventually be able to see the most valuable first so they don’t have to dig through too much styrofoam.
It’s important to note that this will never be 100% successful. Any comment voting system will always result in a popularity contest to some degree. That is life offline and online. However, the more elegant the system is, the more we can discourage and minimize this kind of behavior.
Comments on the commenting on comments anyone?
There have been other posts on this general topic, but given the new “thumbs” system, it’s worth starting another thread. I’m more interested in people’s thoughts on the general subject than anything particular I’ve rambled on about.
As for the “thumbs” system currently in place, I’ll address that in the first comment space below:
1.
If you enjoyed this post, please consider to leave a comment or subscribe to the feed and get future articles delivered to your feed reader.
Comments
Vote:
5 
1 Avoid whining about other’s behavior as much as you can - this includes whining about other people whining!
Vote:
3 0 Didn’t Bluenote already touch on that Dish?
(not whining, just an observation)
Great post Bluernote!
Vote:
5 0 I am also hopeful that we can all grow thicker skins and be less sensitive to the comments which we perceive to be more harsh than we would like.
I’m on the fence about the thumbs, so far, but time will tell.
This was a great post, thanks for sharing your thoughts about how the thumbs should work.
Vote:
5 0 I should also say I enjoyed the humor in your title!
Vote:
2 1 This was written in the chatbox:
Guest_2549 : Hey Joe, Thumbs down on the thumbs, did you check out how city-data.com/fo rum/ does it? They did away with the negative, and the thumbs up adds to a users rep, and can be done anon. as a quickie or with comments visible to user, which can be start of rapport which segues into their dm system….i’m just sayin…
Vote:
4 0 Thanks Nemises.
2549, Thanks for that. Most of what you mentioned is standard among the more robust systems that this would be built up to. It hadn’t occurred to me to eliminate people’s option to vote negatively on something and only alow people to vote positively.
I suppose that would certainly solve the problem of a few people voting negative for the wrong reasons. It would come at a price though. This would eliminate some options for people to sort by rating. Also, when comments are only voted positive, in a sense it implies that anything not voted on belongs in the same group as the worst comments.
My first thought is that it trades one kind of weakness for another. That said, it might be the best way. Is anyone less likely to make a comment because they might get a negative vote?
Vote:
5 0 RE comment from BluerNote: Is anyone less likely to make a comment because they might get a negative vote?
I for one won’t let a negative comment/thumb disuade me from continuing to comment. You have to keep in mind that one or two people just don’t like you to begin with and no matter what you post, their going to give you a thumbs down for that reason alone. ie: the thumbs down I got for talking about how great our US team is doing in the Olympic games. (and a few others) Luckily, once you vote, you can’t vote again unless its say on a work pc or what have you. So if you end up with more thumbs up then down, it’s safe to say the thumbs down was just made out of spite.
I’m not a big fan of the “thumbs”, but it certainly won’t stop me from posting my opinions as i always have.
Vote:
5 0 That certainly is an interesting graphic that you put together. I think you ought to copyright that concept and diagram before someone steals it. Oh and props on your photoshop skills. How do I give this a big thumbs up? Great, original thinking! That’s what this site needs more of.
Vote:
5 0 “This is not a vote whether you agree or disagree This is ONLY a vote for whether a comment adds value to the discussion or not.”
If you saw it as adding value to the discussion, isn’t your agreement or disagreement part of that decision? I don’t have to agree with the comment but I would still give it a thumbs up if it added value; likewise, if I agreed with it, same vote. If a comment does NOT add value, IMO, I would give it a thumbs down. If a comment contained information that I could not determine the value of, I would most likely not vote on it at all.
I don’t know if I like the rating system. If it stays, now you know how I would rate things. Or, I’ll just abstain from it altogether.
The main thing is, this is not my website, and if the owner wants to run it a certain way, and I want to play here, I’ll play here under his rules. I don’t think he is asking too much for us to follow the comment guidelines. Just as long as I get my weekly ration of dark chocolate, nobody gets hurt… 
Vote:
2 0 share the chocolate!
Vote:
2 0 I know that’s right! 
Vote:
4 0 Let’s see, the discussion is about comments and ratings, but comment #11 is about sharing chocolate, normally not considered “on-topic”, BUT, chocolate has flavor…flavor adds value….OK you get a thumbs up! LOL
Vote:
3 0 Thanks “Find Humor…” —this makes me think! I think we can make a distinction between “agreement” and adding “value” to the discussion. They can overlap of course but I don’t think a decision about value is dependent upon agreement or disagreement.
What caught my eye in particular was when you said “likewise, if I agree with it, same vote[thumbs up].”
Because we agree with something, doesn’t necessarily mean it adds value to the discussion. For instance, if the topic in the post is about the age-old ongoing controversial debate of “Asphalt vs. Blacktop”, and out of nowhere there is a comment that says:
“BluerNote has dreadful breath. Something must have crawled into his mouth and died while he was sleeping.”
You may completely agree with this comment after being victimized by my breath yourself earlier, but it doesn’t really add value to the topic since it’s off topic. Now if you agree with the comment and were entertained by it, it obviously adds value to your personal experience, but it’s tougher to argue that it adds value to the discussion rather than distracting from it.
In this case, I personally would just not vote since I don’t want to give a thumbs down to something that entertained me. But heck, if I thought the entertainment added value simply by interrupting a negative mood, then maybe it gets a thumbs up. The earth won’t split open.
Aside from that, the way you described that you will vote is identical with how I would vote on something. It seems to be in line with focusing primarily on value with agreement being secondary. If there is a difference, I’m just not noticing it at the moment, which is quite possible.
As for the “comment guidelines” they don’t exist yet. This is a discussion to help figure that out. I’ve posted my thoughts on it but I’m not at all married to that position.
Vote:
5 0 In effort to simplify:
We know immediately whether we find someone “pretty” or “handsome” without having to put any conscious thought into it.
Similarly, I think when anyone asks themselves “Did this add value to the discussion?” we will immediately know the answer (or at least ‘our’ answer). I’m thinking we should go with that automatic answer that comes to us. Whether someone actually votes on that immediate answer before consciously thinking about other things (e.g. good comment, but I don’t like him), is another story.
Reminds me of that book “Blink” by Malcolm Gladwell
Vote:
7 0 BluerNote, I should have clarified that if I agreed with a comment, it must also have added value to get the thumb up.
Normally, I disregard who the commenter is because many times the comment itself is left anonymously, or the same person comments under different names. This does not change my response.
When I first started responding to pre-rating posts, I followed existing comment guidelines more strictly, so normally I would have ignored off-topic comments completely. Eventually I developed more of a website personality and tend to joke around a little more, (blame those other people!, lol) but I still try to adhere as closely as possible to existing guidelines.
With the addition of a rating system, and using your halitosis example: If the off-topic comment stands alone, it does not matter to me if it is entertaining or whether I agree or not; if it is off-topic or violates the existing comment guidelines, I would consider it thumb down, unless it was a comment that had content wherein I could not determine the value, in which case I would not rate it.
If the off-topic comment were contained within a response that I considered an otherwise valuable contribution, I might respond with my own comment, and so note that in my response.
I hope this was a better explanation of my thinking.
Vote:
4 3 You guys are getting way to philosophical for me & my feeble mind. If I like the post I’ll give it a thumbs up. If I don’t, I won’t bother doing anything. If its something I completely disagree with and feel strongly about, I’ll give the thumbs down.
Vote:
7 0 CR67, If your mind is feeble we’re all in trouble then. Actually we’re talking about the same thing you just said - just in more detail.
Your comment made me curious to ask a couple questions to everyone - kind of a poll. Unfortunately the current poll format doesn’t accommodate these two questions very well. I’ll either ask in a new post (more likely) or find a more robust poll function for the site.
Vote:
4 4
Vote:
11 1 Hi, Bluernote…
What I see here is a lot of folks who are new to internet discussion.
When I first began making comments on the net, back in ‘97, there were many people who thought that the practices of face to face discussion applied. I saw many posts that ended with ‘enough said’ in hopes of having the last word, and many that tried to establish some rule or other as to how a discussion should be conducted. Stuff like “That’s not the way things are done around here.”, posted from a personal view only.
The veil of anonymity on the net allows everyone to present themselves how they like. A meek person in life can be a real bully on the net, or try to, a weak person can be 6′6″, tough as barbed wire and eats crushed glass for breakfast. But more often, folks are the same as they are in real life.
In a face to face discussion, the force of a person’s personality, their physical presence, the way they speak, and who they are with all play big parts. Deep disagreements can persist for years, long after the dispute itself is long forgotten.
Not so on the internet. The net is always a passing parade on websites like this; participants come and go. Regular posters fade away and are constantly being replaced by newcomers to the site.
The skills needed to put a person’s point across on the net are much different. We all rely on our writing abilites here much more than our speech. Here, we are all one color, have one accent, and are members of a much bigger community than just Idaho Falls. We are all what we write. We can be ourselves, a better version of ourselves, or a worse.
We will never really know what someone we write to (and about) looks like, what their lives are like, what their passions are, and a lot of their humanity unless they choose to share their personals with us.
That’s the other side of the net. While each of us is anonymous to varying degrees, the fact is there are very real physical people who are on the other end. This is combined with a real peculiarity that’s not often considered- nothing on the internet ever really goes away.
A few things I have learned:
- Bullies always fail. They get piled on until they give up and go away.
- Name calling always heats up and results in more name calling. Eventually, everything just winds down with a general feeling of sourness after name calling starts.
- Things that are posted on the net sometimes have physical consequences, some good, some bad.
- Everyone will take some statement or other very personally, sooner or later. An insult once spoken, flies off forever as soon as it’s said, but the printed word continues to cut. Like a bad tooth, the pain of the cut keeps being revisited by the one wounded.
- Using swear words cause the loss of respect for the one who uses them.
- Respect is always paid back in kind. Disputes end well when those involved agree to disagree and leave it at that.
- There is never a winner or loser in a disagreement.
- Expect challenges to almost everything serious you write. No one is ever immediately converted to an opposing thought. Continuous opposition never has results unless it’s done with careful thought and respect for the other side.
- If you hang out long enough, expect to change your opinions.
- And, as W.C. Fields once observed, never try to wise a chump. More politely, never try to teach a pig how to whistle… it just wears you out and frustrates the pig. Stay away from the fights that aren’t yours.
Vote:
8 2 Terrific comments Boomer. And good to remember. A couple I don’t understand, though.
- Things that are posted on the net sometimes have physical consequences, some good, some bad.
This sounds scary. Not sure what you mean here.
- There is never a winner or loser in a disagreement.
My observation is that in a disagreement often folks feel as though they’ve “won” while others feel they’ve “lost”.
Your perspective?
Vote:
5 4 Anonymity on the internet is a tad overrated IMO.
Vote:
7 1 HI, Calling All Hypocrits…
regarding your post #21… okay- you asked. Sorry if this is long!
The physical consequences I mentioned:
Like I said, there are real people writing all this stuff.
Good things can develop in surprising ways from internet activity; back in 2001, as a result of participating in a newsgroup disscussion forum, I was the leader of a small group of folks who produced a 2 CD recording that featured like-minded musicians from all over the world. 58 songs done by over 36 musicians were recorded and sent in to one person in multiple formats- digital, cassette tapes, etc. The music then went to a CD recording company who put them on CDs as a complete package, and were then sold to the folks who pre-ordered them.
The recordings were sold out, and were sent out all over the world. Thosands of dollars were paid, received, sent to the right places, and the goods were delivered. And none of us, hundreds of participants, never met each other face to face. It was all based on trust, goodwill, honesty, and common purpose. I’m still amazed we did it!
Then there is the bad side…
The Columbine Massacre was also net driven. The kids who shot up the school let their intentions be known on the net long before they went to the school.
More recently, 14 girls used the net to plan a beating of another girl, with the sole intention of recording the beating and putting it up on the net.
Bad stuff happens on the net from bad thoughts and reasons. Good stuff comes in exactly the same ways.
As to no one ever winning or losing an arguement:
The internet is a place where written words rule. Arguements on the net are settled by the forces of reason, logic, and the ability to write them concisely. The ability to read carefully is as important as the ability to write.
Ignoring the consequences of the power of the net is what determines a real winner or loser. The win comes from net-wide consensus, which doesn’t happen very often.
I used George Allen as an example in another topic- he’s the guy who coined the Macaca term while running for a Virginia Senate seat. His offhand insult to a single individual ended up pissing off several million net users, and put an end to his political ambitions forever within a month. His supporters thought he was stupid, and his detractors thought he was racist… a lose-lose position for him.
The power of huge consensus, and the speed it is reached, is the greatest power of the net, and the greatest change in history in the way people communicate. Until the net, the powerful have always had ways to control communication, but that’s gone forever now. ‘Nuff said doesn’t work anymore.
Pundits of all stripes are quickly losing their power to influence others on radio and tv, because those media are a one way street. The more pundits try to control the situation, the worse it becomes for them, because the net is beyond any real control.
That’s why China and other tightly controlled societies are so afraid of the net.
Vote:
5 4 great post, Boomer. . . .very thought-provoking. . .
Vote:
6 3 Hey Boomer,
Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective. And you do it very well, I might add!.
What a great story about you and the other musicians who pulled a successful project together and never met face to face. It’s a terrific illustration of what can happen when folks have a desire for and committment to cooperation.
At the risk of disclosing my age, I’ll share a bit about myself. Back in 1994 my husband and I decided to adopt. I joined an Internet discussion group for the adoption triad (adult adoptees, birth parents & adoptive parents). From those amazing people I learned a lot, and from them I got some of the best advice ever: to contact everyone who knew and loved us and make them aware that we wanted to adopt.
So we did.
And as a result, we were able to connect with our oldest son’s birth mom (who remains in his life and is one of my dearest friends — though she was a stranger when we first met!).
Cheers to all!
Vote:
0 5 ha ha ha here we go, back to jr. high. . . my post number 24 got a thumbs down. . .
can whomever did it please have the courage to post why, exactly, my statement “great post Boomer” received a thumbs down?
Vote:
0 4 ….or why CR67’s post about how great the Olympics were also got a few thumbs down?
is anyone willing to explain how these posts “added no value” or “subtracted value” from the discussion??
anyone?
Vote:
6 0 Easterner, I have no idea why your comment #24 got a thumbs down, I gave it a thumbs up!
The truth is, people aren’t voting based upon what we say, instead, they’re voting based upon whether they like us or not, based upon our previous interactions with them and others on this site.
Comment #25 (which I also gave a thumbs up to) got 3 thumbs down. Yet it was a very cheerful comment with no hint of sarcasm, didn’t call out anyone at all, and was a very pleasant and pertinent story to share. But because of who she is, and her interactions with others who didn’t appreciate being called out on other posts, she got those thumbs down.
In that regard, you are not alone, others are experiencing the same pattern of voting.
So we will probably have to learn to live with this version of a popularity contest on this site, because it’s clear that folks are going to vote in that manner.
I’m planning to respond to the 4 questions post, more of my thoughts on this subject.
Vote:
6 0 Boomer, that was a great post. Thanks!! In reading post #20, I couldn’t help but think that no matter what your actions are, whether on the net or in person, there is always someone they are going to effect. That effect will always be a positive thing or a negative thing. I think, all in all, it caused me to look at the way I present ideas, stick up for my beliefs, communicate in general, and I am going to be more sensitive to the people that I am around, whether that is on line or in person. I hope that people will feel better after I have left than feel worse.
I like a good debate as much as anybody, but there is an appropriate, dignified way in handling yourself in a debate. I believe that although individuals may disagree, both are human and need to be treated with the respect that they deserve. Who knows, if you keep your ears and mind open in a good debate you might learn something.
Thanks again for the post.
Vote:
7 0 I’m not sure how this is any different from life offline. The more often we participate in personal attacks, the higher the chance that it will affect us in another unrelated context. This doesn’t mean it’s always a bad thing to attack someone personally, but it does mean that more we do so when there are better options that achieve the same result, the more we risk negative consequences. It’s simple ancient logic that says the more enemies we make, the more likely we’ll get burned. Some people make enemies out of bravery and standing up for what is right and fighting. Others make enemies for much less noble reasons.
The more people vote “thumbs down” based on not liking a person, the more they will be bothered when they receive it themselves. If you truly believe in what you’re saying, why would negative votes bother you?
My only proof of this iis how much it’s bothered me to be stung the way I stung others in the past.
I’m far from an angel in life and I certainly don’t behave perfectly here either. However, I have yet to vote on anything other than the message (not the messenger) and I think that’s one reason why it doesn’t bother me at all when I get thumbs down.
Vote:
5 3 Until I read post #26 I’d never paid any attention to thumbs up or down because, frankly, I have no need for a popularity contest to determine my right to state my opinions and/or exist (you’re so right, Nemesis - post #28!).
Seems to me the respect and appreciation that matters the most is my own. If I’m seeking approval or appreciation from people on IFT, how sad is that? Then I’ll say and do things I think someone else wants to hear (or stuff I think they’ll like), and there goes my own personal integrity.
No thanks.
Vote:
6 1 good point calling….
If we are out to constantly improve ourselves I think we do have to pay attention to results and feedback as well.
There is an idea I really like that most people go through their entire lives without even considering such a thing:
“The meaning of your communication is equal to the response that you get.” This means that the true meaning of what you say is better measured by how someone responds to you rather than just your intention. That is TRULY taking personal responsibility. This is easily proved by how different gestures and voice tones are interpreted differently throughout the world.
Of course there are people who don’t want to listen no matter what because we don’t have rapport with them - that is not in dispute. I do know that it’s a useful thing to consider more often than we do (including me). If you introduce this concept to people in person, you will often see fuses blowing in their brain while they consider it.
The default human behavior is to say “they misunderstood me” rather than considering the notion that they could stand to improve the flexibility in their communication. Successful sales people (even ones with integrity!) obviously know this since if they are not flexible in how they get their point across, they don’t pay bills.
Say what you (not YOU you, the editorial you) believe and believe what you say…but also pay attention to results. Personally, I’m all for an airline pilot feeling very strongly that he knows how to fly to New Zealand, but if I’m on that plane, I want them paying attention to the results they’re getting (gauges etc.). Since a flight with a clear goal is off course 90% of the time and constantly correcting, this is probably a good thing.
Vote:
5 0 Calling all hypocrites, you are so right. There are many who do give up their personal integrity because they don’t want to offend others or because their opinions may not be popular. I’m not one to care if my opinion is popular or not. If it’s what I think and believe to be true, then I’ll voice it. I try to be polite but that doesn’t always happen especially if I think someone is just provoking a fight.
The thumbs up, thumbs down, seems to have provoked some unhappiness. Honestly, I see no reason for the thumbs. If people agree or disagree, they usually say so. If they are neutral, they usually don’t comment.
Some may be offended at the thumbs down votes because they fear they may not be so popular afterall. Maybe they’re right. But there really is nothing wrong with that as long as you are true to yourself.
One problem that at least a couple of us have seen here is that the general attitude seems to be that if you’re not for us, you’re against us. Either friend or foe, with no grey area.
Hmmm….maybe we just need a grey thumb in there somewhere?
Vote:
6 0 I agree hmm04 ….the other extreme is true too though. There are many people who give up their personal integrity to win an argument (which is arguably more common).
Is there one among us who has never been guilty of either one at some time in our lives? If so, you must be very young.
Vote:
5 0 That can be true too BluerNote. I’m not sure which is more common. I tend to try to rethink my position if I believe they have made a good point, but not all do that. The other thing people need to consider is their mood when approached. If we’re in a sour mood (or dislike the person) to begin with, a disagreeable person can sour us all the more making our reactions/responses, more abrupt then they need to be.
Vote:
4 0 All good comments! How interesting those thumbs turned out to be.
Vote:
2 2 I agree, but I still think that the whole point of the “thumbs up, thumbs down”, to use your words, Bluenote, was to denote whether or not the comment in question “added value” to a discussion.
Do I take the “thumbs down ratings” to heart? No, of course not. You misunderstand my concern: if the whole rationale for the “thumbs” rating system, according to you, Bluernote or Bluenote, is to determine and vote on whether or not a comment adds value, then can someone who is ascribing to that system explain why the most innocent of comments got “thumbs down” ? In other words, would the person who gave the thumbs down to CR67’s positive Olympics comment, or to any of the positive comments, explain for all how they “detracted from” the Olympics or any other conversation?
If that person cannot do that, I think it is indicative of the worthlessness of the “thumbs system”.
You did ask for input, Bluenote; that is mine. I don’t see your stated objective for the rating system (determining whether “value is added” to a discussion or not) being met. As such, I feel it just adds another layer of dissension to an already pretty tense site. IMHO
Vote:
4 0 Thanks for your comments easterner (really). As I write this, I don’t know specifically which comment of yours you are referring to. So if it’s a comment that you know for sure added at least some value to the conversation (more than it took away), and you know most people would agree with you, did you receive more up votes than down votes?
Vote:
2 2 my post #24, in which I wrote “Great post, Boomer; very thought-provoking” got two thumbs down; the more egregious example was CR67 on the Olympics post, in which CR67 stated how much they were enjoying the Olympics, and immediately got a thumbs down. Just examples, imo, of the flaw in the system. Again, where there is so very much dissension here aleady, I am just not clear on the motive for adding more. I thought, at first, it might be a good system; these examples (there are more) establish, for me, that all that happens is that people see a particular name and have a knee-jerk “I’ll show HIM/HER!” moment and give a thumbs-down. How is that helpful to anyone?
Thank you for allowing this (hopefully constructive) criticism. . .
Vote:
4 0 By the way, I’ve mentioned a few times that my mind was still open about this which is why I was interested in having the discussion.
I now believe that a simple up/down voting system is not sufficient for a vote on “adding value to the conversation.”
Comments in this thread have convinced me that it’s better to ask simply for people to vote on the comment and not the person. With that simple rule, it will be obvious 99% of the time when there are negative votes on the person rather than the comment. Not everyone will listen of course (and if everyone does, something is bizarre. It does cause more people to think about what they are REALLY voting on though and as a result, a few more people will make an effort to focus on the comment.
I did just check the comment you are referring to. At the time I write this, it has 3 positive votes and 2 negatives. That means you have a majority positive votes.
I think you will acknowledge though that this particular comment was not exactly the best comment you ever made. It was a nice compliment and therefore more neutral (as far as what people vote on). This causes most people to not vote at all on it (I’m a member of that group) because I don’t want to waste time voting on every single comment. So naturally, the few people who are just out to vote negative on you are going to get closer to your few positive votes.
If you look at other comments you made, you’ll notice that in general (there will always be exceptions), the better your comment, the more positive votes you got. That dwarfs those consistent negative votes.
Since the negatives are so consistent, it really makes them meaningless anyway. If I remember correctly, strange measurements like that which don’t seem to have a reasonable explanation are called “outliers” and are rightfully ignored.
Vote:
4 0 We’ve been focusing on the negative votes here, but remember that you have certainly received positive votes for the same reason you receive some of your negative votes. It works both ways - people will give you a thumbs up simply because they like you too. Some people will also vote you a positive if they think you’re being voted negatively for personal reasons. Therefore it is always offset and balanced out to some degree.
Vote:
2 0 How about if your “thumbs up” “thumbs down” follows you to all comments so you can get an overall picture at one time of how your comments are being received as a whole. Is a running tally even possible? (Think E-Bay). Just a suggestion.
Vote:
3 0 Hi BluerNote,
You mentioned that successful sales people are flexible in their communication or else they don’t pay the bills. Good point. I am (sort of) a successful sales person. So I really get that the quality of communication, ability to listen & hear clients, and respond appropriately is a big deal when you want to feed your family.
I do see a couple of things differently, however (or perhaps I’m just not clear about some of your points and we actually agree!). I have noticed that the most successful folks in my business are the ones who are also the best at “keeping it real”. In other words, I choose to not modify the essence of myself and/or my core values and beliefs to “get the sale” or get the clients’ approval and/or appreciation. Honesty and authenticity go a long way, but they don’t always make me the most popular. I do get good results most of the time, though. Do I always get positive feedback? Nope. And that’s A-OK by me. I don’t need it to feel proud of myself when I maintain my integrity.
On another note, you mentioned that we also give up personal integrity when we insist on winning an argument, and that perhaps that’s more prevalent (than giving up personal integrity because we don’t want to offend others or because our opinions may not be popular - thanks hmm!). I don’t disagree with the first part, but I need to give some thought to the second. My gut reaction is that it’s probably more common in our society for folks to avoid public confrontation, even at the cost of not standing up for their values.
I certainly welcome other points of view. This is a great discussion, everyone!
Vote:
2 2 Bluenote wrote:
“It works both ways - people will give you a thumbs up simply because they like you too”
Exactly my point, as that has no validity to the comment’s inherent “worth”, either, which is why I do think the thumbs are meaningless and should not exist on this site. But, again, this is simply my opinion.
Thanks for the articulate discussion.
Vote:
7 0 I understand, but remember since since we both agree that’s the case, the people who vote based on the person can cancel each other out. They are also the minority of people because most people will have no opinion on the person who made the comment unless the name itself is particularly offensive or very appealing to them. All other things being equal, more people will always focus more on the comment than the name because unless their one of the people all wrapped up in an online argument with the person, they’re more interested in the comment than a name. Therefore unless we believe that most people vote on whether they like names or not, they will vote on the comment. I will say that an exceptional name will probably help get a few extra votes - just like it does in off-line voting.
Therefore, since there will generally be more people who are voting based on the comment, the results of the vote will usually be in line with whether people liked the comment or not - as opposed to the person. In anything else like this, there is a margin of error. The margin of error is relatively high right now because not many people have voted yet. As the number of people who vote increase over time, the margin of error decreases proportionately along with it. That said, even with these few votes, I do notice that the comments where someone put the most thought into, tend to get the higher number of positive votes. That will only continue.
So over time, the number of people who vote will be less and less likely to have even talked with you at all. They will instead be voting on us based on our comment and some of them may even comment based on how we handled yourself in discussions elsewhere on the site in the past. That’s all fair game because it’s based on comments, not because of a direct positive or negative previous interaction with you. This is no different than offline where you build crediblity (and even a credit score) based on how things were handled in the past.
These current results are insignificant so far since even if they saved, the affect in any long term percentage is not even worth mentioning.
So over time it makes sense that some people will be commenting on us based on how we behave in a heated argument with others, rather than any heated moments they had with us directly.
Thanks to you too for the good discussion–interesting me thinks. =)
Vote:
8 6 [08/28/2008 ~11am. Removed for a second time due to multiple personal attacks on users. Ip address will be restricted until user commits to refrain from personal attacks or unless Mr. Eagle overrides position.]
Vote:
2 2 Well, back online to post for the first time in awhile and what a thread this is!
Rule #4 - what rule #4? Come on people.
Vote:
3 4 I forgot, as for the topic of this thread - opposable thumbs, etc etc. - I won’t vote ever for a thumbs up/thumbs down system. I want to hear your WORDS and your THOUGHTS, whether I agree or not. The voting system is too vague, some vote honestly and some knee-jerk vote according to their emotion and anger at the time, or like some say, popularity.
I don’t care if it stays, but I am choosing not to use it.
Finally, since I can tell from an earlier post this thread may be shut down too, some of you are getting so angry on here it’s going to ruin the site. Nothing is wrong with debate, but let’s do it like adults. If I was a potential new user, I’d log onto some of this stuff and exclaim “what the heck is wrong here?” and maybe not take the site as seriously. This site can be a great discussion site for local and national events, but some of you are going nuts about the littlest things.
Vote:
5 0 I often comment on a musical instrument forum that has a No Politics, No Religion rule. The site once had an area for those topics, but it proved to be just too divisive, and left all the members with bad feelings. The subjects still pop up from time to time, because new members often don’t look at the rules carefully.
This site means what it says… if a member consistantly breaks the forum rules, they’re locked out after a warning. Other rules are similar to here- No Personal Attacks, Profanity, Commercial Links (spamming), etc. Former members have been locked out for all of these.
But Idaho Falls Today is an entirely different place. This is a place where bigger ideas that just what brand of instrument we prefer gets discussed.
I love this town, and I love this state. I was born here, and I’m going to die here, in the arms of Old Mother Idaho. I’m proud that here, we say what we think, unafraid. I’m proud of our differences, because they makes us all the stronger.
In real life, I’m 6′4″, 220 pounds, and fully capable of defending myself physically. But I’d much rather use my mind than my muscles, because getting into a fight never produces a winner.
Bullies of whatever kind, especially in a disagreement about politics or faith, always lose because their minds fail them first. Sooner or later, there always comes along somone who can whip ‘em, mentally first and physically if need be.
I not hurt if someone disagrees with me, but I’ll respect anyone who can express their opinions and philosophy while respecting mine. I regularly get with a couple of very close friends who are on a completely opposite political spectrum from mine, but we always find some common ground we agree on because we respect each other in many other ways.
If you don’t respect those who have different opinions and thoughts, you probably don’t respect yourself, especially if you think you need to come to blows to get your points across.
Differences are the things that have kept this land we love together all these years, not agreements. There are always going to be 2 sides to every issue.
Many democracies all over the world, from far in the past to the present, have failed because the losers won’t put their passions to rest. We went through one civil war from this, but other countries have gone through many more civil wars, and the end result is always a dictatorship which kills it all on both sides.
Americans learned their hard lesson from only one civil war. We learned to be passionate about our beliefs when passion is needed, and to put our passions to rest when the issue is decided. If the decision proves to be wrong, then we become passionate again until we get it right.
Concensus on big things can be ruinous. It creates corruption, decay in our system, and is poisonous to our cherished right of free speech. This country was born from dissent, and it runs in our blood, hot and strong.
America is still the place in all the world where others want to come. They want freedom from fear, freedom to practice their religon, and freedom to become what they want to be. To gain these things often requires speaking up.
If we forget this, we are weaker for the forgetting.
As for me, I’ll argue with your guys if I disagree. But I’ll defend Old Mother Idaho to my last breath, and I’ll stick up for the United States of America always and will never back down to any foreigner’s thoughts of what is right and wrong with us- that’s a right I reserve as an American. I’ve been there, done that, all over the world.
I don’t need a lapel pin, a yellow ribbon on my truck, or any other symbol to prove my patriotism to myself. I have no need to display my patriotism to anyone else, because it’s in my heart, where it belongs.
If others feel the need for this stuff, that’s fine by me, too. That’s what we are all about.
Vote:
1 6 [Comment removed since it's only responding to the previous comment removed]
Vote:
4 0 [Comment removed - just continuing the argument from another thread that was closed for the purpose of stopping it. I'm going to be conservative about removing comments so I'll let Mr. Eagle decide on any others below. I'm requesting that everyone cease referencing this topic/argument. It has run its course several times over - stop bringing it up. It is making spam look like an award letter from the state lottery.]
Vote:
1 8 Whew,
And there I was thinking you were serious……give me a break. 007 and I joked about that awhile back. I also told Hoagie to meet me in Fred Meyer because I had some pictures I wanted him to see. Get a clue and lay off the kool aid.
Vote:
2 6 I, too was present, but not participating when the chatbox conversation described in #50 was taking place. I think certain posters WAY over-reacted to casual banter going on. I have gay friends and none of them would have taken offense at what was being said. It was if some posters were jumping in trying hard to pick a fight. Their comments were more out of line than the original light conversation others were trying to have.
Vote:
6 4 Thanks for explaining your side of the story Bundy and yes, we’ve have joked about that before. I think we can all agree that while we are all very passionate about our views on a number of issues, I honestly don’t believe ANY of us have EVER threatened the other, nor would we. While I don’t want to rehash and bring up an issue we’ve finally put to bed, I do think some baiting was going on and that was out of line. And I also think that because the “Mrs” was new and didn’t have the rapport we (the regulars) have with each other, that she read into certain comments things that just weren’t there. imo
I think we can all learn a valuable lesson from all of this and in the process turn it into a positive. While I don’t always agree with hoagies views and opinions I do enjoy his participation on this site. (even though he can go a little overboard at times imo) On the same token, I don’t always agree with Bundy’s views either, but I enjoy his participation as well. I believe all the different personalities is what makes this site great AND is what brings all of us back each and every day to debate, discuss and otherwise just “shoot the breeze”.
As long as we can remember that we’re all different and we’re not always going to see things the same, and not try to force feed each other our beliefs and opinions, we’ll do just fine.
So thanks Bundy for your POV because I know some of us were out of the loop that evening and coming in the next morning and seeing the CB wiped clean had a few of us wondering. (me at least)
Boomer, great comments on #49!! Thanks for those inspiring words!
Have a happy day everyone!
Vote:
4 0 Thanks for your kind comments, folks…
I just call it like I see it, but I try to think about what I’m trying to put across. What a country!
I like the loose reins here, and I have gotten a lot from a lot of the discussions. I’ve changed my mind, or tempered my opinions from reading some of them, too.
From my experience, once a thread has gotten about 100 responses, it’s pretty much run it’s course. Past that, stuff tends to either be ‘dittos’ from one side or the other, or things get snipy. For sure, there are many topics here that have lots of sides and viewpoints, so maybe that 100 rule of thumb doesn’t work here as well as other places. I’m glad the mods are using their authority, though… there often comes a place where moderators have to pull the plug or it just goes on and on. And on.
Hi, Easterner…
Thanks very much for your comment. I appreciated it all the more since we’ve disagreed a little in the past, and you sure gained my respect. I think we’re more in agreement ’bout more stuff than either of us suspect.
For the life of me, I don’t understand why it got a single thumbs-down… either someone is trolling to try to start a fight, or they’re just being a jerk for the hell of it. Once the new wears off, the thumbs thing will become a truer gauge of agreement, I’m sure.
Vote:
2 5 Once again, great post Boomer. You stated it all perfectly.
Vote:
2 4 Too bad they wiped my response off the board. That is really getting old around here. I say leave it up. This can allow alot of people to judge the credibility of posters around here.
Vote:
6 1 Bundy, I agree. I have asked the moderator to refrain from removing comments in the future and to err on the side of free speech.
Vote:
3 1 My opposable thumb works and I aims to keep it that away. Anyhow, my point being is that we need to soften the skin and be able to talk about anything and not get such a hard skin about it. I mean it is like “come on” and should talk freely about it and not have a worry that someone is going to be offended. As a friend of mine used to say “I have done nothing to offend.” Well I have not and so no one expressing their strong opinion has not. I beg of you please look closely at your thumbs and observe which they will be pointing.
Vote:
1 1 Please err on the side of free speech and reinstate IP to the CB. On the morning after the Obama speech, I posted a comment non offensively and by the guidelines. I noted, as several pundits did, that Mc Cain’s announcement that he had someone in mind for VP seemed to be a grasp at a bit of the spotlight. My comment didn’t post, and I’ve been blocked as a spammer. I don’t even have anything to spam about and I hate SPaM! So Bundy I feel for you. This site reflects the IF / American attitude in several forums. Free speech as long as you don’t say anything they don’t want you to.
Thanks for reviving an interesting discussion, Bob. Bluernote started an interesting thread, here.
Vote:
1 2 I kicked up quite a storm when I posted about the LOL and smileys.
The truth is- I did it on purpose. I wanted folks to think about what they write, and going out on a limb like I did got the job done.
Same goes with that description of the white vinyl belt on the polyester leisure suit and the disco boots. It was such an outrageous description that it got my point across stronger than a bucketful of smileys, LOL’s or WTF’s.
I wrote both of ‘em, then sat back for a while and watched what would happen. I saw lots of comments, and they came from lots of people thinking- it didn’t matter to me whether they approved or not.
I’ve done the same thing before. This device isn’t mine- I observed writers far better than me do similar things that worked even better.
I only wish I was a perfect writer, and I’m glad someone in the chat box thinks I am! Cool! Thanks!
Leave Your Comment
Our Community's Comment Guidelines:- Please stay polite and on topic.
- Your email will never be published.
- No profanity or euphemisms for profanity.
- No personal attacks, name-calls, put-downs, or baiting other guests, races, genders, or religions.
- Express opinions, facts, logic, and reasoning; just don’t argue for argument’s sake.
- No commercial links (unless absolutely relevant to the discussion) and no religious proselytizing.
- No religious discussions (for or against). Go to http://religion.idahofallstoday.com for religious discussions.
- Use the "I" word as much as possible to demonstrate responsibility.
- Limit yourself to using one name per thread to demonstrate responsibility.
- If you think a comment is inappropriate, ask Joe to review it.
Loading ...
Vote:
As it stands now, I see 2 main things people are probably voting on (when they do vote on comments):
a. Voting on whether they agree or disagree with an idea.
b. Voting on the person. Whether they “like” the person or not.
As I see it the only realistic goal of the current primitive system is to help expose and reduce (not eliminate) the occurrences of #2 and try to encourage #1 more. And when #2 does happen, it will usually be obvious in the context of the actual comment.
When making a comment of value, EXPECT you will receive some thumbs down votes by people who either disagree with your idea or disagree with your right to exist! If you can’t handle that then it’s questionable whether you know the price that must be paid for accountability. If you make a comment that gets an unusual number of thumbs down, that does not mean you are wrong or didn’t add value, but it is at least worth looking into how you could have expressed yourself more effectively.
So considering the limitations of the current up/down system, I propose that the vote be defined simply as: “Overall, did this comment add value to the discussion or not. (thumbs up or down).”
For more detailed explanation:
“ If your feelings are too mixed about it, simply don’t vote on the comment, but rather make a comment to share your own view. This is not a vote for or against the person making the comment. This is not a vote whether you agree or disagree This is ONLY a vote for whether a comment adds value to the discussion or not.”
Is everyone going to follow this? Of course not and I personally guarantee there will always be people who won’t; believing otherwise would be naive. There are people who will use it as a popularity contest no matter what. HOWEVER, when someone makes an extremely useful comment or an extremely unhelpful comment, it does show in the voting overwhelmingly.
The “data” collected in these comment votes will likely be reset at some point when something more robust has been implemented that makes the data more useful (sorting etc.). Also comments will of course eventually have to be threaded (when someone’s mainly replying to someone else’s comment and not the main post).
Again, these are just my thoughts for anyone to comment on - not the owner of the site.