I need to be candid…
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Forgive me if this isn’t the right place to post these sentiments. I’m sure this issue has been discussed here before, so this may be an act of futile redundancy. But, here goes…
I enjoy a good political discussion as well as anyone. Two (or more) sides, both with valid arguments, well-debated, makes my brain do new things, and I think that’s important. I think all of us here like it, or we wouldn’t visit the site. We welcome and celebrate opposing viewpoints, passionate dialogue, and healthy debate.
But, and here’s wh
ere the candid part comes in, I’ve been disappointed at times to come in, and see new comments on different posts only to find that the new comments have absolutely nothing to do with the original post. Instead they are personal pot shots, flame wars, BOP comments, one-upsmanship, etc. Occasionally I’ll wade through the irrelevant insults to try and find some nugget of intellect, but it gets tiresome.
So I have an idea, because there are some that like being involved in the drama of this insult jousting. Why don’t we have simply one post for the drama-addicts. It would be there you could discuss all you want how much you hate Bush, or how evil the liberals are, etc.
This very post may ironically draw such insults, but I think the quality and productivity of the debate will improve dramatically if we could keep the arguments more germane, and less directed at shunning and insulting previous commenters, separating in our minds the validity of the arguments made and those making them…
I’ll climb down from my soapbox now…
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Comments
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3 
1 I’m with you. I’d love to dig in and let everybody in the comment section know what I think…but I hold myself back quite a bit because it all just gets thrown aside to talk about x characteristic of my post in the end.
Welcome to the interwebs.
Classic pic, utter truth in a crude, uncaring package. If asked on the street, I might phrase it differently due to how readily available the picture would be…but this will serve its purpose.
Speaking of on the street/in person discussions…I’d be glad to get everybody in the area together and have a good old time. I like getting in other people’s heads, finding out what makes them tick…and that just doesn’t work online.
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2 6 And of course the pic didn’t show up on the post…it was there in the preview!
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/amature/special_olympics.jpg
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2 1 Ok, Marcus, I feel horribly guilty laughing at that picture… but I couldn’t help it.
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3 3 I love watching these folks argue for arguements sake. Every one of them feel like they need to get in the last word no matter what. Its like watching preschools kick sand in each others faces during recess. Hopefully this post will help them to open their eyes, flush out the sand and get back to having civil discussion. Good post Open Mind.
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5 3 OMG that picture is TOO funny!! (& oh so true)
Thankx Marcus…lol
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3 2 Its an evolutionary thing blogwise. Sometimes the moderator has to come in to enforce the rules. But it’ll come around with a little kicking and screaming. Once people realize they’ll get as good as they give, it’ll change.
Having said that, the picture is completely inappropriate and very hurtful to the disabled and their families. Click my name for a letter to the editor on why you should be ashamed for posting it.
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2 5 I’m not ashamed, and have no reason to be. Obviously the kid is having a great time doing what kids do, regardless of his mental/physical ability.
The caption (as I stated before) is crude, but accurate. It’s not poking fun at the disabled, it’s pointing out the obvious deficit of civil minded individuals taking part in heated arguments over the internet. We’re all allowed our opinions, and the above is mine.
Not another word on this subject will come from me, I’ll be having too much fun sucking whipped cream out of the can.
Get ready for the storm! Hopefully we won’t have one ;).
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4 5 OMG!!! How did I know somebody was going to complain about that picture!! I guess it was only a matter of time. Geeezzzz!
Thanks for the laugh Marcus and stick to your guns on this issue. I’m so tired of the political correct bs in this day and age.
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2 5 Lighten up syphilis. It was meant as a joke and Marcus even put a disclaimer before posting it. The hyper-sensitivity of some people really blows my mind!
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4 5 Hypersensitivity, my ass. If you think it’s a funny picture, you’re a sick human being. And if you think people calling you a sick human being are being ‘hypersensitive,’ then you are a sick, conservative human being.
Try sharing that photo and it’s caption with that boy’s mother, and then tell me again how it doesn’t make fun of disabled people. Those of you who defend the posting of that picture wouldn’t have the guts to do that. Cowards.
Sysyphus is right, and you all should be ashamed.
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4 0 This thread will desintigrate in 3. . .2. . .1
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3 5 Good point, Bloop, but a little too late. The thread disintegrated a half dozen comments above, when a group of people decided to make fun of a disabled kid, and then were defensive about it when they got called out.
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2 4 What’s funny is, Idahogie doesn’t bother to reply to the post itself that Open Mind left (as WE ALL know it pertains to him as much as anybody here), yet he’d rather whine about a picture like it’s hurt him so deeply. GMAFB!! I’m sure you missed the whole point the caption was trying to tell you as well. Figures.
I agree with Guest House…..you guys ARE hyper-sensitive.
btw….good comment Artiste’, glad to see you back.
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4 4 GofaG is right. Did you even read the original post Idahogie?? I honestly don’t think so. You’d rather whine and complain about something else, just so you can “keep the argument going”. You really are a piece of work.
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4 3 *Flame Fest On*
The only pieces of work are the ones who are yukking it up over the picture. I’ll admit that I myself chuckled slightly but I’m ashamed that I did and I realize that the picture is very wrong and very inappropriate. Sometimes those things do end up being funny kind of the way people laugh at people getting hurt. But the difference to me between those who are decent and those who are pieces of work are the ones who can recognize their own failings in this regard.
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2 2 How did we get back on the conservative/liberal track?
Conservatives make fun of disabled kids and approve of it and Liberals defend disabled kids that are being made fun of, thus deeming anybody that is even somewhat seen as making fun of disabled kids a Conservative? Is that your definition of a Conservatism? Last I checked, Liberals and Conservatives alike were able to make fun of almost anything without that something defining their political or societal ideals.
Are we talking politics, or are we talking values? Just need to clarify that before I can go into this any further.
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4 5 I’m being chastized by people who like to make fun of disabled kids. That’s something new, I guess.
Do you people hang nooses from your cubicle walls (with a happy face drawn inside, just so everyone knows it’s a “joke”)? Would you call people who pointed out the inhumanity of that “joke” hypersensitive?
Explain the difference between a noose and that photo.
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2 3 You asked for it, I’ll give it to you. Un-sensitive, crude as hell, I apologize in advance.
You have to screw up to get the noose.
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2 5 yup…sure enuf. Idahogie bi-passed the whole point of the article and went straight into arguing his next case again! You really do enjoy arguing for arguments sake dont you hoag? So yes in deed, I second that comment: “a piece of work for sure”. (not that theres anything wrong with that, dont get me wrong)
I am in no way attempting to upset, put down or otherwise hurt another posters feelings. Wouldn’t want them to go home crying tonight!
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4 5 Well put, Anonymous.
And Marcus - I brought up the liberal/conservative issue again, for very good reason. You will notice that it is the conservatives who are defending the picture and telling everyone else to “lighten up.” The reason they do that is that they want to maintain the right to put down people of lower order than themselves. They want to be able to make fun of certain classes of human beings: gays, transgendered, undocumented workers, disabled people, etc. That’s what conservatism promotes: the maintenance of class differences. They want the existing class structures maintained (e.g., no marriage for gays, tax cuts for the wealthy, walls on the border). That is almost the definition of conservatism.
The photo mocked a class of people. The conservatives here think they should be able to do that, merely because they’ve always been able to do it without the embarassment of being pointed out. They get annoyed when people point it out. You’ll notice that Sisyphus was very polite in how he pointed it out. Then the whining and complaining started. That’s what I was reacting to more than the photo itself. That “let me continue to mock disabled kids - shame on you for pointing it out” attitude. They start blaming the people they offended.
That’s some personal responsibility right there.
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3 4 I find it an honor that you people are annoyed with me. The fact that the complaints are coming from those who mock disabled kids, I’m rather proud, in fact.
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4 0 I definitely want to continue this discussion. You have some good points, and (in my opinion) some bad. I have to head home, do the family schtuff and I’ll be back on to see how this has evolved a bit later this evening.
I think the main problem here is that open mindedness is thrown on the window, altogether and make debate next to impossible. I think that was Open Mind’s point anyway. I’m definitely open, and want to see some serious input that isn’t downright insulting to the other group.
I just found you guys, don’t want it all to fall apart because of a couple of words that don’t entirely adequately describe us.
Speak with you this evening.
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4 2 If you don’t get why “retard” is the new n-word then I can’t help you. Try reading the article again from someone who explains why it hurts. Your stance does clearly indicate that you have little association with the disabled. And that certainly would make you ignorant. I had hoped my home town had evolved a little. But that picture certainly can’t be defended by the victim’s cry of political correctness out of control. You bring shame to the state that is hosting the Special Olympics. With demeaning negative stereotyping like that, I don’t blame them if they never return. Can’t you see the value of people?
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6 3 “How did I know somebody was going to complain about that picture!! I “–that would be your conscience. Listen to it.
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5 3 “Lighten up syphilis.”–oh yeah, that’s elevating the conversation. Exhibit a to the post.
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4 2 I honestly don’t think the picture is appropriate on a public forum. This is one of those things that maybe you are going to text message someone who may find it funny but not post it where people who may have a mentally challenged family member they struggle with, is going to find it anything but offensive. Honestly, I don’t mine jokes about my ethnic background, religion , etc., I’m used to them. And some of them are so true, they’re funny. But if I had a mentally challenged child and saw that, I would probably be offended, just as a black person might be offended if you used the “N” word.
I also think that for those of you who love attacking Idahogie for some very good responses are attacking without merit. I agree with Open Mind, debate and discuss the issues and quit with the put downs because you don’t want to muster up enough thought to respond appropriately.
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3 5 Back on topic (which several people have accused me of missing, without basis):
I’ve been involved in most of the “altercations” lately. It appears to me from the comments that a few people are not used to being challenged. It appears that a certain group of people want to be able to continue making the same kinds of insulting and false statements they’ve always made. They are annoyed that I won’t be polite. Before me, I believe that Crystal was not allowing these commenters the freedom to make nonsensical or insulting statements without being called on it.
The times, they are a-changin’. Get used to it.
Boomer captured it perfectly here.
The topic of the photo is a perfect illustration. The commenter who posted it originally, Marcus, made a great comment - recognizing that others have a point and promising to devote some time to discussing it.
Others on this thread got indignant that anybody would be so “hypersensitive” that they would stand up for the dignity of disabled kids. Instead of reflecting on their own behavior, they get angry, and attack the people who pointed out their insensitivity to a particularly vulnerable and defenseless minority.
That group could learn a lesson from Marcus.
PS. Nobody has answered my questions (except for Marcus’s attempt, which I don’t quite understand):
1. Who has the courage to show the picture to the boy’s mother and explain how it isn’t insulting?
2. Would you hang a noose in your office, and take offense at anyone who pointed it out? If not, what’s the difference?
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2 2 I also think that comment #10 needs to be edited ms moderator.
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0 1 Whats wrong with number 10?
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1 4 Nevermind, I see it now. I don’t think misspelling somebodys name qualifies as “editing”. Posters misspell other posters name every day on this blog, some on purpose some not. If Ms Mod is going to edit this one, they’ll need to go through the whole site and edit them all, like Guest of a Guest’s acronym, which is much worse than #10 IMO.
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3 5 Guest House purposely(?) misstated Sisyphus’s name to something derogatory.
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3 6 Sorry A - posting as you posted. However, if you think calling someone “GofaG” is worse than calling them “syphilis,” then you must think that being gay is worse than having a severe disease. Is that so?
Plus, I think I may have been the first to shorten Guest of a Guest’s name. I didn’t notice anything about it when I did it - just saving time. Some commenters accused me of being purposely insulting. I quickly apologized, and said I wouldn’t do it again. I notice that Guest of a Guest’s defenders are using the acronym now.
We’ll see if Guest House has enough class to apologize for his ‘typo.’
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3 3 I hardly think that was unintentional.
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4 1 Open Mind, very good post. Thanks for trying. You should be officially labelled a “Mother Hen” now. 
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4 3 What’s funny is, at first glance when I first saw that name, I thought it said the same thing. So I can see how a mistake like that could have been made.
As for GofaG Idahogie, you can’t honestly tell us you didn’t think of it as derogatory when you posted it. At least that’s not how it came off to me as you were both in a heated argument (or debate if you will) at th time you posted it. And only after a bunch of people metioned it, ,,did you apologize. (it certainly wasn’t “quickly” as you’d have everyone believe) But I agree, lets just wait and see if Guest House acknowleges it as just a typo.
Geez, whatever happened to “free speech”?
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1 4 I agree, he did try. And I wouldn’t say “mother hen”. Mother hen is when someone is constantly scolding or “correcting” other posters when he or she doesn’t agree with what they say or how they say it. Certain posters do that ALL the time like we’re in grade school or something.
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3 2 Pick a name Anoneemouse/Anonymous.
Well I know that Nem and I have made the same statements and been accused of “scolding” and called a mother hen for it, which neither of us minds incidentally. So take it as you will. I am not sure why it is difficult for some people to just have clean debates and discussions here, nor do I see why the constant belittling of posters is needed. So speaking of grade school, how about getting past the insults?
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4 1 So apparently you are a moderator or your double post wouldn’t have been deleted so fast. As a moderator, perhaps there is responsibility that goes with it.
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5 0 Regarding the picture, I worked with the disabled in group homes all through college and am fairly desensitized to such things. I wasn’t offended by the picture since I’ve seen much worse.
Though I’m not offended and did find it a little amusing, I personally think humor like that is cowardly since it’s at the expense of those who can’t defend themselves very well. In particular it’s the use of the picture that’s pretty low class.
Therefore, to compensate for the cowardly aspect of it, it should be extremely funny. I don’t think the humor value in this case quite met that standard. That of course is more subjective.
I think some people could stand to have a thicker skin about such things and on the other side, there is a clear element of cowardice in the use of that kind of humor.
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2 2 I have a name but thank you for your concern. (I haven’t used “Anonymous” and if you think I have, I urge you to check with Joe to see, if it concerns you that much)
I agree with your last statement. That was the point of this post. i just don’t understand why certain posters feel the need to constantly argue for arguments sake.
Perhaps you could help us out with that?
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3 2 Well said bluernote.
Anoneemouse, Sorry I was hoping you could. Unless someone was posting exactly your thoughts within 30 seconds and suddenly it’s gone, it was you. Nice try though. Now kindly pick better fights. That was hardly worth it.
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5 5 Yes, CR67 - I didn’t recognize any slight. I still don’t. But others did, so I apologized as soon as I saw their comments. But you can believe what you want.
Now here comes Anoneemouse complaining about the behavior of others, just because those other commenters are complaining. Funny.
Again, I have no problem with differences of opinion. There are some people around here who can’t recognize the difference between differing opinions and insulting, nasty behavior. Making fun of disabled kids is not acceptable in decent conversation. Misrepresenting what people say is also not acceptable. Calling people names is not acceptable. Refrain from doing those things, and I won’t complain.
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4 1 Talk about hijacking a discussion…
I’ll start by introducing myself a bit. I’m 22 years old, happily married, with two children that I married into and one that entered my life last October. I can most definitely be described as an average middle class male living the lower middle class lifestyle with my family. They’re my numero uno.
I believe in working for a living, keeping what I put my eight hours into and property ownership. I’m all about gun owner rights, though I don’t own a gun (yet). I believe that people deserve the chance to make up their own mind on being productive memberd of society if they are physically capable of doing so, and I believe in supporting those that are absolutely incapable. I believe in immigration, in keeping our country strong by intermingling different cultures, as long as they are on the same page as I am concerning working for a living and they take a legal route to enter and remain in the country. I like to think that I’m a pretty down to earth fellow.
Do I classify myself as a Conservative? No, though I do have strong conservative views and values. Would the average individual talking politics with me classify me as a Conservative? You bet your bottom dollar he would.
There’s a split right now running through the whole country. I’ve been hearing about it for years. CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Laura Ingraham…it’s all the same. One side fighting against the other. On a daily basis I take it all in, think about it, and let out a sigh of relief that I’m not stuck on either side of the divide. The citizens of this country, for the most part, are in my position…though most of them are a bit older than me. In a lot of ways, my generation really is an embarassment for me.
You have college kids around the country wasting their tuition fees on an education that I would have loved to have had a chance at. My cards weren’t set up that way, and I accept it. Then you watch the news and see the democratic frontrunner, this hip dude that has all of his ducks in a row and will be in the oval office come January for sure…and then you notice that all of the policies that he has made public are right in line with socialism, and he’s not that cool anymore, only most of these college kids don’t see a problem with it. Free health care, sign me up! I understand the need to be healthy, but at more of an expense than medical care currently is for care that isn’t up to par, I think I’ll continue to shell out $250/mo for it and hope that others pick up a policy.
Then you have the Republicans, hell of a split group here. None of them want Obama to get the job, and then a quarter of them realize what the other option is and either decide not to vote or shoot a vote to Obama. I am not a fan of McCain, think he’s marginally better suited for office than Obama, but overall it’s the same boat only instead of social programs galore and a way out of the war, it’s social programs galore and the possibility of being able to win the war (but that’s another debate in itself and can be taken several ways).
The reason I went into candidates was to highlight the social programs that are already running rampant and those that are yet to be announced, much the less voted on. We’re cruising right on past the state of acceptance of social programs and right on toward dependence of social programs. Welfare, health care, SSI/SSA (though this is very beneficial in some cases), government funded college grants…we’re zooming toward a kick in the ass. All of this money that benefits some of us comes from all of us, and as everyone is well aware, the good old U.S. of A. is not doing so hot financially right now. Raise taxes, lower taxes, balance the numbers…in the end it’s coming from our pockets. I would love to help those that need it, but a lot of these folks receiving benefits don’t/won’t put in the effort to deserve them. Some of them aren’t even legal citizens, and have never put in toward the programs. I definitely have a problem funding their existence when they won’t take it upon themselves to at least attempt to fund their own.
And from my view on candidates and one aspect of the current fight between the two “sides”, let’s go back to what exactly the words “Liberal” and “Conservative” mean. How do they line up with what you believe? How and why are they applied to you based on what you say or how you live your life? This is the main point, and I figured that knowing a few of my ideas would be helpful. Where would you place me on the Liberal/Conservative chart? I’d like to know, because I normally stick myself in the category of common sense.
Love you guys. Hope to spur some good, healthy discussion.
Marcus
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3 2 Now that’s a good post. I don’t agree with all of it, but it’s good nonetheless. Thanks Marcus and welcome to this (sometimes soap opera) forum!
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2 2 Incidentally and this isn’t the first time its happened, I need to mark my posts better. When I said I hardly think that was unintentional, I was referring to comment #10. Idahogies comment came as I was posting and yes, I do think Idahogies post was unintentional simply because while I don’t know him well, I know he isn’t going to knowingly call anyone a “fag”.
I had to explain to Nem just last week after doing pretty much the same thing, posting without making it clear which post I was referring to. Dang, guess I too, need to communicate better.
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2 3 Having reviewed the photo in question I have to say that yes someone who is uptight about the humanity of comedic pop art is being hypersensitive about the subject. The child in the photo is not even the butt of the joke. He certainly wasn’t singled out. It was just an available photo, I’m sure. The fun is distinctly being pointed not at real retards but at euphemistic “retards” who try to “win” pointless internet discussions by turning them into arguments. And anyway, whoever said jokes had to be tasteful? On the web it would be very easy to find much more offensive material, as well. Point your browser to what doesn’t offend and let the rest be.
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4 0 Open Mind, great post.
You make excellent points.
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4 3 Well said Wilson! Thank you! Although I’m sure you’ll get blasted for calling someone a retard instead of mentally challenged. The thing is, there’s no pleasing some people on this site. But they are the same people who I’m sure have never Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, Carlos Mencia or a hundred other hilarious comedians that tell tasteless jokes and don’t let political correctness run their lives.
As for #10, sorry about that. When I first saw it I couldn’t believe somebody would have a username like that! lol I misread it and I must have had it in my head as I was typing.
I think true freedom of speech is being lost little by little in this country and it’s a real shame.
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4 1 Guest House, thank you for the apology, that’s cool and I’m sure will be appreciated by others, mainly the person you were speaking of. And by the way, I love Carlos Mencia. As I stated earlier, I hear jokes all the time about my ethnic (no I’m not hispanic, re: Mencia) and religion. The point is, there’s a time and a place for all of that. Here is probably not appropriate. I think that’s all anyone was trying to say. I love comedy, I love a good joke, some jokes are better kept elsewhere.
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4 5 Thanks, Guest House.
However, I don’t agree with you about comedians. There is a way to be funny, even involving racial humor, without being mocking. There is self-referential humor that uses minority stereotypes without demeaning the minority. Sarah Silverman’s “chink” joke comes to mind.
I saw George Carlin when he played here, and he didn’t cross the line into cruelty. If he did, I wouldn’t think he was funny. When Gallagher played the Colonial, he did cross that line. He had a volunteer kid up on stage. When he found out that the kid was LDS, he turned to the audience and said, “This is what happens when you marry an ugly Mormon woman!” He probably lost half the audience that night. He lost my wife and I, and we’re not even LDS. That moment is the only thing I remember clearly about his entire show. I remember he smashed some stuff, too.
And Wilson - I’ll believe your point as soon as the phrase “Wilson Masters” (or whatever your actual name is) becomes synonymous with “flaming pile of shit.” Then, when people say, “George Bush is the biggest wilson masters in history,” you’ll have some idea of how it makes that boy’s mother feel to see that picture.
Again, if you think you’d be comfortable explaining to the boy’s mother why the picture is funny, then I might go part of the way toward believing you. For some reason, nobody will answer that question.
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3 6 Hoagie,
Would you disagree with me if I told you that it was dark outside?
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2 6 lol Bundy!
Idahogie, I was just wondering how you thought that picture and it’s caption was “mocking”?
And is it necessary for you to swear? That is one of our rules in case you weren’t aware. It doesn’t offend me, but just wondering if you thought it was necessary for you to get vulgar with your reply to Wilson.
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5 5 Bundy - obviously it would depend upon what time of day you asked. Did you really need to ask that? Please read this post again. Take your time with it. Really digest it. Especially the third paragraph. If you need some help with it, just ask.
Do you just like pretending to be a dork?
Guest House - Do you see the sentence I just wrote? Do you think it’s insulting to Bundy? You should, because it is. And I only wrote it to illustrate this point: I could claim that, technically, I didn’t call him a dork, when I really did. Similarly, the photo caption doesn’t call the young athlete a ‘retard.’ But again, could you show that picture to the boy’s mother and explain to her why it’s not insulting to her son?
I’ve answered multiple questions on this thread, and I have yet to see a single person answer that question. What are you all afraid of?
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3 7 I don’t know her or her son and have no reason to believe that it is insulting to either one.
For one, parents will surprise you. Each one is different. That photo without the caption is likely one that she has seen before and has hanging on the wall. Include the caption, and you’ve got a mildly insulting piece directed at fools on the internet. I seriously doubt that she cares all that much that her child was portrayed the same way that a good deal of people think of the disabled anyway, and I’d discuss it with her in a heartbeat.
Hell, I’d talk to the kid even. At this point, he’s a grown man.
On a similar note, how’s this for retarded: http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa2/ixmio/3-29-08001.jpg
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4 5 Yeah, Marcus. And maybe she’s a sadistic mother who enjoys mocking her son. Or maybe she resents him for being born a retard, and maybe she’s the one who created the caption in the first place! She would have access to the photo, wouldn’t she! It all makes sense now!
And maybe you have an IQ that hovers in the mid-50s, and I should stop wondering why you don’t get it.
Or perhaps I should assume that you’re normal. And perhaps you should assume that she is, too. Her kid’s picture, with a caption saying “If you argue on the internet, you’re like a retard in the Special Olympics” … oh, and here’s a picture of a … what is he now? A fine young athlete? Or a retard in the Special Olympics?
Come on, Marcus! Are you really going to twist yourself in such a pretzel that you can’t see this? You seemed a lot smarter than that earlier.
Look at the picture again. It says “DON’T BE A RETARD LIKE THIS KID!” Was your mother that horrible that she wouldn’t be insulted? Why do you assume that his mother is?
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4 5 Sorry to be so harsh, Marcus. I do appreciate that you’re the first an only person to address my question. You get points for that, unlike the rest of the har-har-laugh-at-the-retard gang here.
But I hate to see everybody here rationalizing a plainly hateful sentiment. You can pretend that maybe there’s a circumstance und
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I concur! The flaming political pot-shots as well as the “one upmanship” has gotten completely out of hand and seems to have taken over every single post lately. I don’t know what it is with some of these folks that just have to get the last word in. This is why I refuse to talk about politics in a blog type setting.
Thanks for bringing this issue to light OpenMind. I’ve been hinting about this issue every couple of days but this beast has got a mind of it’s own and needs to be reined in. I’m hoping you pointing it out in a post will do just that.
We could all stand to relax just a little bit.