Obama’s appearance in Europe

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I’ve been curious about what you all think of Barack Obama’s appearance in Europe. I’m not particularly a fan of Obama, but I suppose there’s some sense of historic impact in his visit and his rhetoric.

While I find him to be an intriguing figure, a smooth, articulate, respectable person — I believe he’s somewhat of a lightweight. I’m not sure he’s had the governing experience to lead the free world. I also have some concerns about his somewhat apologetic remarks about America.

Ninety-five per cent of the time he carries himself impressively. The other five per cent embarassingly illustrates his inexperience.

Will this trip be spoken of in history books twenty years from now? I’d like your thoughts.

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Comments

It is extremely premature to say that, twenty years from now, anyone will remember what Barack Obama said today in Berlin, or, indeed, that anyone will remember that he spoke today in Berlin at all.

What counts – and what makes exceptional rhetoric last beyond the echoes it makes as it rebounds – is what happens because of or despite of the rhetoric offered. To put it another way, Abraham Lincoln (in his Gettysburg Address) said: “The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here; while it can never forget what they did here.” (Nicolay transcript) Lincoln’s statement is ironic in that his speech is one of the most memorable ever delivered in American politics. But it’s the context of the speech – dedication of a graveyard where were interred soldiers who fought in one of the bloodiest battles of the Civil War (not to forget the Civil War itself) is what makes the speech memorable.

To take another example:

“There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev — Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”

Had the Berlin Wall not fallen two years after Ronald Reagan gave this speech at Berlin’s Brandenburg Gate in 1987, Reagan’s speech would have been just another speech, a footnote in history, forgotten because it did not have context with the events surrounding it, despite its rhetorical ring.

To take another example:

“Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when this city will be joined as one and this country and this great Continent of Europe in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, the people of West Berlin can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines for almost two decades. All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words ‘Ich bin ein Berliner.’”

Kennedy’s Berlin speech is also a remarkable example of powerful rhetoric. But again, taken in context – delivered in a city, in a nation, only recently divided by a physical barrier and in a world that would see extraordinary tension rise becasue of these physical and political barriers – his speech is, and remains, meaningful.

Let us consider the context of Obama’s speech: The United States has increasingly alienated itself from Europe, indeed, some say, from much of the world. Obama’s rhetoric is full of hope, to use an overused word.

“People of the world, look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one. The fall of the Berlin Wall brought new hope. But that very closeness has given rise to new dangers, dangers that cannot be contained within the borders of a country or by the distance of an ocean. We cannot afford to be divided. No one nation, no matter how large or powerful, can defeat such challenges alone. None of us can deny these threats or escape responsibility in meeting them.”

But for this speech to be remembered twenty years from now, the context of world events will have to catch up with it.

Those keen on the beatification of Barack Obama will have to wait for history (and, indeed, the results of the November election) before they can chalk up his speech as one for the history books. His rhetoric and ideals are admirable; they hark back to the themes and memes of unity and freedom that Reagan, and John F. Kennedy before him, uttered at the Brandenburg Gate. But until events catch up with the rhetoric, Obama’s speech will remain historically unremarkable.


Obama is as qualified, experience wise, to be president as George W was when got elected. More so in fact since senators at least deal with foreign matters, especially in a time of war, from time to time whereas governors are all about the state. It was Dubya’s inexperience in foreign matters that led to the selection of the very experienced Cheney as his VP. Politics is always full of rampant hypocrisy and the inexperience bashing on Obama is just the latest example of it.


Nice comment, Bloop. I agree with you - this speech will not be remembered unless there are circumstances of historic precedence that occur in proximity.

But there are a couple of events on the horizon that might provide that context. First, the election of the first black as President of the US. Second, the election of a qualified person after Bush will be a factor. The president who fixes Bush’s disastrous mess will be seen through history’s viewpoint as much greater than he would have otherwise.

Neither of those will highlight this particular speech, however. It may be that the set of campaign speeches become historical in some way. Or that an “Ich bin ein berliner” statement is drawn from one of his other great speeches.


I was reading the main blog here, some of the comments, and other blogs in other places as well. Here’s my question: Why people in the United States think that its president will lead the free world? And what is your definition of free world? Because let’s face it, U.S. is not the best example of freedom nowadays. Even more, it became a threat for freedom and independence after the Irak invasion and with the current administration’s foreign (and internal) policy. Let’s face it, the United States of the early 21st century is not the United States of the end of the 20th century. There is no country that violates international law more than U.S. nowadays; starting with the non-proliferation treaty, the human rights issue and the interference in other countries affairs. I think whoever will be the next president of the U.S. will have to deal with all these issues and try to re-gain the trust of the other countries (and the trust of the people in general). Of course, there is no perfect place nor perfect foreign policies but for sure there is a better one than the implemented by the Bush administration.


Now THATs funny! You say, “There’s no country that violates international law more than the US”?? Are you kidding me?? How about North Korea? Darfur? Somalia? Afghanistan? Cuba? JUST to name a few.
Wake the %&*$ up! You’re in for a rude awakening if Obama gets into office. Don’t bash the US because our President has the cajones to stand up for what he believes in. He’s the ONLY one who had the nerve to put his neck on the line to fight terrorism. Tell me what other country would have done that?
None.


Carlos,

Thanks for the post. Are you a local?

You are right that we have lately become a greater threat to world peace and stability than average. But the fact is that since the late 19th century, America has thrown its weight around to get what we want. And we try to cloak it in terms of national security or foreign aid. Sometimes we’re not so bad. And sometimes we are even a very strong source for good in the world.

Even Bush isn’t 100% bad. The AIDS support to Africa(although that has recently faltered) and his moderate position on immigration issues were noteworthy, if ineffective.

I often wonder why people like Guest House don’t wake up and see something like what the rest of the world sees.


I DO see that our country has it’s problems. But I also don’t appreciate people bashing the US and the Bush administration. If you’re so unhappy with this country than leave. We’re still the greatest nation in the world even with all our problems. And even with our trillion dollar national debt, we still don’t have a problem sending aid to China and it’s earthquake victims, or the tsumani victims or the displaced people in a number or war torn countries. Instead people like you and carlos would rather focus on this countries faults. Well, I’m the glass is half full kind of person and you’re the glass is half empty. And guess what, there’s not a country or government in the world that is perfect.


“We’re still the greatest nation in the world even with all our problems” sounds like nationalism to me.

We are my FAVORITE country for sure, and I want us to be greater than we have been…so even though I think there are problems, I think they are fixable and I want to stay here in my homeland and help to fix them.

If I pretend my country has no faults (shed no light on them so they can’t be fixed) then I’m helping it decline. And I’m tired of it declining because of false pride, because of foolish nationalism. I want it to deal with its issues, shine its light and be a model the world can look up to.


Leave it to Nemesis to always put a label on somebody’s views. Typical response.


Yeah, Guest House - labeling people. Typical response.

You’re a riot.

Nemesis named the behavior you were displaying. Would you rather have a conversation without naming things? That would go great, I guess.

Well, I’m the glass is half full kind of person and you’re the glass is half empty.

But you don’t label people. No way. Never.


Talk about typical response…..yeah, America is a terrible country…in fact, we are to blame for 9/11. It was the evil policies of Bill Clinton and George Bush that caused the terror attack. If we were just nicer and stopped pushing our weight around then people would leave us alone. In fact, if we just sit down and negotiate with Iran, Al Qaeda, and others, they will come to see that we are just misunderstood people and won’t attack us.

All those jingoistic and nationalistic types like Guest House are the real evil doers out there. With a “global citizen” like Obama trotting around I am sure that it will be no time before he gets elected, throws out the Constitution and has us join the UN to save the planet from evil American imperialism. Wow, I feel much better knowing that we can correct all the evil that America has done and would do in the world. Whew! What a load off my mind. Thank goodness for Obama. I sure am glad that the Germans and French respect him so much!!! They have always been so successful and stood up for themselves. They are great examples to emulate……….what? The French rolled over and let themselves be conquered repeatedly? The Germans let the Nazi’s take over and kill Jews because they also didn’t stand up for themselves? Well, just ignore all that. The UN, with cooperation from Obama, will fix all the problems in American and elsewhere.


What is wrong with you guys??? Can’t you stop with all the bickering back and forth and just talk about the topic? This post and the comments you’ve made back and forth are exactly why I don’t discuss politics. Like someone posted before, it turns into one big “pissing match”. Some of you are so condesending and think you’re completely without fault, it’s no wonder so many posters have left this site. Get over yourselves and get back on track already! Cheese N Rice!!!


Guest House and Bingo Bob -

Do you two see how your posts look when compared the other commenters? Seriously, take a fresh look. Or better yet, do an experiment: have an unbiased, disinterested person read through all the comments and tell you which posts they think are thoughtful, intelligent, and connected to reality, and which ones are a bit unhinged. Which ones add substance to the discussion, and which ones are meant to shut down the discussion.

Or was that your intention?


You just have to get the last word in dont you Idahogie?
Unbelievable. (are you sure this isn’t Crystal?) :)
No….seriously?

I think we can all afford to read comment 12. This poster hit the nail on the head imo. Sorry to have offended anyone. This will be my last comment on this topic. I think I’m going to follow some of the other regulars here who steer clear of the top 3 topics that get people absolutely nowhere.
Have a great night!


I have to agree somewhat with “Open Mind,” regarding Obama’s trip. I may be a little more of a fan than you perhaps?
However, I absolutely agree when you said, “Ninety-five per cent of the time he carries himself impressively. The other five per cent embarassingly illustrates his inexperience”
In comparrison to our current Prez. G.W….. It’s completey the other way around.
Also, Good ol’ G.W. has made many Republicans take a better look at what the Democratic Party has to offer!
We (USA) are in bad shape in many areas and we need a leader who will bring about change. The problem is we can really never know until they are elected, exactly how great of an impact they will make.

On another note. Am I alone in thinking what a historical event it would be to have a Black President! Even better a Female Vice/ or even President?
There seems to still be a lot of racism throughout our country! I hate to say it but even our State, County and City.
I think it stems from a lack of diversity, in Idaho Falls particularly.
That’s just me though! 20 years ago I gew up in “The Melting Pot” of the Country! There were more races & religons than you could imagine! Maybe every single one! Ha!
Yet, even where I grew up there was racism amongst every race.

I don’t know it would definetly be monumental! Having a Black President would bring about some change for some people.
Either way it goes,I am excited to see what happens and have a positive attitude about the future of this countrys leadership!
Rev


Hey, Rev.

I agree with you about 95%. The 5% that I don’t agree with is the 5% you mentioned. I’d like to hear what embarrassing things he’s done. In my mind, we’re so used to a bumbling idiot in the Presidency, that we’re not used to somebody doing as well. We think, “He can’t be perfect, can he?”

But in fact, he really hasn’t made a single misstep on this trip. I understand that in his Berlin speech (which I admit I haven’t heard or read) he said something like “America hasn’t always lived up to her ideals…” That’s hardly “apologetic” as Open Mind phrased it above.

I don’t want to imply that Obama is perfect. He certainly screwed up big time when he reversed himself on FISA. I only hope he will work to fix that abomination when he gets into office. In fact, that will be a true test of character for him - will he act to limit the powers of his office? He should, if those powers are unconstitutional.

Guest House:

(if you’re still reading) you sure have some nerve. You come in here and drop two bombs as comments, full of capitals, exclamation points, confusion, and invective, and insulting Nemesis. Whe two people point it out, your response is to call me “Unbelievable.” I do appreciate your apology - but do you have to insult people in the process of apologizing?


The argument “if you don’t like this country, then leave” is, in my understanding of logic, counter to what this country is about. We (citizens) are members of a democratic republic, which is to say, if we don’t like it - it’s our job to try to change it. I suppose we could “leave” too, if it’s within our desire realm to do so, but the argument “if you don’t like this country’s stand on X or Y - then leave”, well, to me that sounds downright un-citizenlike.

I’m a proud citizen who doesn’t “like” everything our administration does, but instead of leaving, I do my best to gather like-minded others and work to change what we don’t like. Leaving doesn’t enter my mind much, nor do I see why it should. I’m an American citizen, it’s my job to behave like one. That means working toward strangthening the America I envision for myself and those who come after me.

As for Obama’s appearances - I’m really rather glad he is having success worldwide. McCain suggested that Obama had too little worldly experience, Obama is working to alter that, and he’s doing a downright diplomatic job of it so far. Good going Obama!


#17, loud-proud-hippie, your comment is very thoughtful and better explains what I was trying to say in #8.

Great job, you said it very well. Please continue to comment!


We need more comments like loud-proud-hippies. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say, but couldn’t figure our how to do it as well as you.


loud-proud-hippie; I appreciate your comments too.

Guest house, I’ll be honest with you, I always thought you had better manners than this. You have the ability to argue a fair debate (I know because I’ve seen it) but I’m not seeing it in your recent posts.


Others have said it but I should have said it, too. Bloop #1 had a fabulous comment, great analysis and very thoughtfully written.

Great job.


Wow, what a great blog…..group think is alive and well. Looks like Guest House and Myself have to apologize or be put down for our “diverse” opinions. I thought you liberals touted diversity as being important…..apparently only when it is liberal thought that is espoused.

Guest House, don’t apologize for anything. Your comments were not rude….you stood up for the country without calling anyone names. There is absolutely nothing wrong. Don’t let this crowd make you believe different. Stick to your guns!


I just don’t understand why we need a “mother hen” on this site telling people whether or not their comments were “appropriate” or not. Seems like it happens on every post. The owner of this site is all for “free speech”. If a comment doesn’t appeal to you than dont bother to answer it. I just don’t feel that its up to certain people to criticize, critique or otherwise be condesending towards posters they don’t feel made a “proper comment”. Do you write or email Rush Limbaugh when he calls people “environmentalist wackos” or “tree huggers” or any number of things? I seriously doubt it. The point is, this site promotes free speech and if somebodys comment doesn’t appeal to you, it’s not your place to “scold” them. So enough with the “shame on you” comments from certain posters that feel like they need to be the “mother hen” of the site. I don’t post here to offend people, only to give my opinion and point of view just as everyone else does. If my opinion bothers certain people than dont bother to reply to my comment. It certainly won’t bother me one way or the other.
Good day!


So I guess good manners defer when warranted due to “freedom of speech”?
I wouldn’t listen to Rush although I know he loves messing with you guys then marching to the bank to cash in afterwards. The only thing I suggested was argue a fair debate without put downs. I had no idea it was asking so much! :|


So also sayeth the mother hen. Apparently unless I’m being argumentative and calling people names, my particular way of exercising free speech by stating my opinion that we are shredding the civility of reasonable discourse, is ANTI-free speech.

Enjoying a fight is what you watch pay-per-view boxing or WWF for, folks. I like this site for allowing commenters to express their individual opinions of topics posted…not a free-for-all UFC of clever or outrageous putdowns of others for having opposing opinions.

Maybe you think I’m off base? Do you think if attacks are allowed to be made, frequently, with gusto, or sneakily, with venom…that a great time will be had by all?

Where is the line? Is there any line at all? The rules say we have a line, but it’s not well defined, because we each perceive that line to be in a different place than the other commenters. Does that effectively nullify the rule?

I stated on the other thread that there is a place for passionate debate. Great emotions come into play with political positions, which are almost as personal as religious beliefs, so having very strong feelings about political things would be natural.

And just a note…I don’t have anything to do with those talk radio hosts because they have a job to do (and they’re doing it well). They have a job to rile up the populace with innuendos and half truths and outrageous swiftboat attacks…they aren’t interested in the truth even if they know it. It’s tabloid radio, and it’s not for those who want to participate in a free exchange of meaningful dialogue.

I’m just doing my best to try to steer the debate down a different path. I’m not sure what the owner has in mind, but I can’t imagine it was his intention to turn IdahoFallsToday into a tabloid website.


I agree, hmm #24. So also sayeth the mother hen. Apparently unless I’m being argumentative and calling people names, my particular way of exercising free speech by stating my opinion that we are shredding the civility of reasonable discourse, is ANTI-free speech.

Enjoying a fight is what you watch pay-per-view boxing or WWF for, folks. I like this site for allowing commenters to express their individual opinions of topics posted…not a free-for-all UFC of clever or outrageous putdowns of others for having opposing opinions.

Maybe you think I’m off base? Do you think if attacks are allowed to be made, frequently, with gusto, or sneakily, with venom…that a great time will be had by all?

Where is the line? Is there any line at all? The rules say we have a line, but it’s not well defined, because we each perceive that line to be in a different place than the other commenters. Does that effectively nullify the rule?

I stated on the other thread that there is a place for passionate debate. Great emotions come into play with political positions, which are almost as personal as religious beliefs, so having very strong feelings about political things would be natural.

And just a note…I don’t have anything to do with those talk radio hosts because they have a job to do (and they’re doing it well). They have a job to rile up the populace with innuendos and half truths and outrageous swiftboat attacks…they aren’t interested in the truth even if they know it. It’s tabloid radio, and it’s not for those who want to participate in a free exchange of meaningful dialogue.

I’m just doing my best to try to steer the debate down a different path. I’m not sure what the owner has in mind, but I can’t imagine it was his intention to turn IdahoFallsToday into a tabloid website.


But I also don’t appreciate people bashing the US and the Bush administration. If you’re so unhappy with this country than leave.

From Mr. Guest “Don’t complain about my comments - if you don’t like them, just ignore them, what happened to tolerance?” House in post #7.

There are ways to make your point, and there are ways to make your point while insulting people. Finally there are ways to be completely hypocritical while making your point. You’ve done the latter two, and that’s what people complain about. You’ve now insulted Nemesis for ‘labeling,’ when that’s what you did in your first post on this thread. And you’ve complained about all the mother hens who object to your comments, when you did that in your second comment.

Just make your point. Like so:

“This is a great country. Sure we have some flaws, but we try to correct them as they happen. But Obama went way over the line when he said this…”

Not like this:

“You people don’t appreciate America - why don’t you leave? …”

See the difference? You too, Bingo Bob. Learn a lesson here.


So, how ’bout them Maple Leafs?


Hey, Bloop, them’s fightin’ words! . ;-)

Sports team fans are pretty loyal to their own team.

I prefer the Denver Broncos, myself. It’s time for them to shine (although, I’m thinking, the rest of the AFC West may have something to say about that, this year…) in the Super Bowl XLIII against the Vikings, 2009.

Oh, wait…you weren’t REALLY looking to talk sports, were you???

;-)


Wonder why Guest of a Guest’s comment was deleted. It wasn’t just edited, the whole thing was deleted like he was never here. I didnt see anything wrong with his comment. Merely stating his opinion like everyone else here does.
While I agree that the bickering has started to get out of hand again, I don’t feel it’s right from some posters to be allowed to keep their critical comments on the board, but others get theirs deleted. Joe Eagle has informed us that freedom of speech is alive and well on this site, but I’m not always seeing that. Sure some peoples feelings may get hurt, but that’s life. His comment wasn’t out to intentionally bait, put down or otherwise hurt anyones feelings. So why are some posters allowed to be critical of others, but some aren’t? And just for the record, I tend to side somewhat with comment 23. Why is it some people feel the need to critique and/or criticize everybody’s comments on every topic. If somebody’s view doesn’t appeal to you, why even bother responding.
We were doing so well there for awhile with our civil debates, hopefully things are starting to calm back down again. I just don’t agree with deleting peoples comments completely. If you’re going to edit them, edit them and tell the rest of us why they were edited but don’t completely delete them because you didn’t like what was said.
But hey…what do I know?
Have a great Sunday folks! :)


I think we were asking for what you stated Cr67, a civil debate. It was going really well for awhile. No need to have another boxing match.

Although, if you’re selling barbequed ribs, we may stick around for it. ;)


:)


I don’t know if I saw a different #23 than is here now (Guest House) so I’ll take your word for it, CR67.

Joe Eagle (or moderators, whoever you are)…PLEASE do not delete someone’s comment entirely! It’s really not free speech if your entire comment can go POOF! without everyone knowing what is going on.

I agree with CR67, please write something in to say you’re deleting it but LEAVE the placeholder.


Idahogie: “There are ways to make your point, and there are ways to make your point while insulting people” and insinuate that guesthouse has insulted others, which you deem inappropriate.

Yet you, Idahogie, on another site, had this to say:

Idahogie: “Agreed, Easterner. I’ll let the issue go. But the fact is, my last note to you (#95) was bait. I took your statement and blew it out of proportion with the intention of ridiculing you”.

so, you are here, providing unsolicited advice to two posters about remaining civil and phrasing disagreements appropriately, yet on another post, you freely admit to

1. baiting (a no-no here) and
2. deliberately ridiculing (also a no-no).

Interesting. Very interesting.


CR67 - could you give us the gist of what the deleted comment was discussing? I’d agree that it would be better to have a “post deleted by moderator” message put in place of any deleted comment. Better yet, the reason for the deletion. However, that’s an additional burden for Joe to take on. I can understand if he doesn’t have that kind of time.

And, it seems I have a troll following me around from another post.


how does pointing out your own words make me a troll, exactly?

or are you disputing your “civility” on another post?

isn’t that what you wrote?


Easterner, can we let it go?


hmmmm, I know you unfailingly support Idahogie on every post . . . . but that doesn’t mean anyone who questions what he writes needs to be scolded or reprimanded; please read his post #27 and you will see that he was the one raising the issue of the “proper” way to post on this site;

as such, I do think it is important to remind him that he has advocated “baiting” and “ridiculing” as methods of “discussion” and thus relevant to his own posting of advice on “how to” post civilly. calling me a “troll” underscores this point even more greatly.

have a great night, all!

:)


Easterner, I don’t recall “scolding and reprimanding” anyone. I asked for some civility. I think it may be time to lighten up. I don’t “unfailingly” support much of any view on this site and Idahogie is aware that I do disagree with him on certain issues. That doesn’t mean that I’m going to treat him as a lesser human being for his opinions. I also disagree with you on certain issues, but I have not treated you with any less respect then I have treated him.


So, hmmm…..just a nice question for you. Where do you and Mr. Sandwich disagree?


I can’t answer that Bundy, I have no idea who Mr. Sandwich is. Sorry!


Hmmm, I have to disagree with you. You do often “scold” posters regarding their comments. Your most recent “scolding” in the Vulgarity post. But it happens quite often when you think someone’s sarcasm or off beat comment doesn’t align with your way of thinking. I say lets relax on the scolding of fellow posters as we’re all adults here and freedom of speech is encouraged on this site. If a comment isn’t up to par with your standards, simply don’t respond. Pretty simple concept dontcha think? :)
Have a wonderful Friday!


Guest House, for someone who regularly opposes overly sensitive people, I have to say that I think referring to my post as a “scold” was being overly sensitive.


Guest House,

You still haven’t answered about your own hypocrisy. You scolded Nemesis for “labeling” after making the comment “I’m the glass is half full kind of person and you’re the glass is half empty.”

You’ve also been complaining about all the “mother hens” who are objecting to your comments, after saying “But I also don’t appreciate people bashing the US and the Bush administration. If you’re so unhappy with this country than leave.”

Don’t you see a difference between people suggesting that you be more civil in your comments, and you telling people to leave the country rather than make comments?


All I’m saying Guest House, is go back and look at your first two posts. They could have been made by O’Reilly or Hannity or Savage. I can imagine them being made by a certain notorious fan of those three blowhards.

This country is slowly waking up to how harmful that level of discourse is to the fabric of our society.

Go back and re-read your first couple of posts, and those of Bingo Bob, and tell us whether you think they belong in a civil conversation. If you think they are OK, then tell us why the very mild complaints about your language are so much worse than the bombs that you dropped.


The labeling issue I was talking to Nemesis about was her labeling peoples “VIEWS”, not labeling people themselves. (and I didn’t “scold” her, merely made a statement) But of course if you would have read it correctly yourself you would have seen that. So lets move on already.
This site promotes free speech and if that’s too much for you to handle than don’t reply to my comments. It’s as simple as that. But all the “mother hens” on this site with their scolding of fellow posters has gotten out of hand. If you don’t think my comments are “civil enough” for you, than move on and respond to somebody elses comments. You certainly won’t offend me.


I guess there is a difference depending on who makes the “statement” and who “scolds.” That’s actually quite hypocritical. But I agree, time to move on.


As for hmmms comment. Yes, I do oppose “overly sensitive” people. This country was founded on freedom of speech and until that right is taken away from me, I’m going to utilize it to the fullest extent. If my views, opinions and comments happen to offend someone along the way, oh well that’s life, get over it. You may not like my style of debate, but I don’t like the way you (& Idahogie) have to pick apart every person that makes a comment you don’t approve of. This is the real world, not some sugar coated dreamland you want it to be.
As always, just my opinion. Which you’re more than welcome to ignore. Have a wonderful day!
(and btw, can we get back on topic now?)


Not to jump in the middle of your conversation but Idahogie, do you think calling someone a “blowhard” is “civil conversation”? It doesn’t bother me, but I can understand how other posters can point out you saying one thing about their comments and than you turn around and do the exact same thing you’re complaining about.
I have agree with the “free speech” issue GH talks about. “Civil discussion” means different things to different people. What’s civil to one person may not be to another. I’m a big Rush Limbaugh fan, (I think GH is too. LOL) and I can tell by hmmm & Idahogies comments they’re not. Rush is pretty brash with his comments and point of view, but that’s the beauty of this country, he has that right. Just as GH has that right. And like Rush, you can choose to tune him out or listen to his point of view.
just throwing in my 3 cents. :)


Sorry but I’m lost. If Guest House says something derogatory it’s freedom of speech. If Idahogie or I say something it’s a scold, bash or other likewise comment. That’s the part I don’t get. It’s the part we both referred to. It’s the part that keeps meeting with disagreement. It’s hypocrisy at it’s finest. This is precisely the reason why my once more conservative stand is moving towards a more liberal stand.


Geez, let it go already!!!!


Ah, darn it, I wasn’t here to get into the middle of it all and make everyone mad at me instead of at each other!

Shucks. Now whatever will I do with my evening?

Time to write a new post! Yeah, that’s the ticket!

;-)


Nice to see Obama agree to the town hall meetings with McCain….

oh, wait, now he doesn’t. . .