Abortion in Idaho
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A question was posed in the chat box last night regarding Abortion and the person that made the comment suggested that this might make a good topic of discussion. So here goes….
What are your thoughts on abortion? Are you pro-choice or pro- life? I’ve always thought the choice should be left up to the woman. The question asked last night was, “should the woman be obligated to inform the man before opting to receive an abortion”? I personally thought it should go without saying if the couple is married. But what if the couple isn’t married and the woman doesn’t want the child? Should she be obligated to inform the man? Or is it her decision and her decision only if their not married?
When the question arose I got to thinking and I don’t recall ever seeing an abortion clinic in this town. Living in larger cities most of my life, they were quite common. One of the more common ones being “Planned Parenthood”. Planned Parenthood is a great clinic for young women and neither encourages or discourages them as to which path to take, but offers them the tools and information to make up their own mind. Often times you would see pro-lifers standing outside accosting women as they entered the clinic, usually chanting pro life blurbs and holding up their pro life signs.
I was also informed that we didn’t have any abortion clinics in Idaho Falls and that most women had to drive to Boise or Salt Lake City in order to receive this procedure. I thought that was very odd in this day and age, but then again, living in such a religious community I understood why.
After doing some research online, I found out that 93 percent of Idaho Counties have no abortion providers whatsoever. I also did a search and only found one abortion clinic (that was listed anyways) in Boise. As of 2005, there were only 7 abortion providers in Idaho. I couldn’t find anymore recent information than that. But there are laws in place in this state that say nurses, doctors or care-givers have the right to refuse this service based on their religious beliefs. Imagine that!!! What if a nurse or doctor refused you heart surgery based on their “religious beliefs”?? I was astounded to say the least!
The most recent abortion laws past in Idaho as of January 2008 are:
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The parent of a minor must consent before an abortion is provided
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A woman must receive state directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure is provided.
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Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
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And it’s only covered in private insurance in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
In the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision, the US Supreme Court ruled that a woman, in consultation with her physician, has a constitutionally protected right to choose abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. – that is, before viability. In 1992, the court upheld the basic right to abortion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, deciding that the husband does not have to be informed about an abortion. However, it also expanded the ability of the states to enact all but the most extreme restrictions on women’s access to abortion. The most common restrictions in effect are parental notification or consent requirements for minors, state-sponsored counseling and waiting periods, and limitations on public funding.
I was also informed that the reason most women go to SLC or Oregon State for their abortion, is because of restriction #2. Most counseling is so brutal and so demanding for the woman, they’d rather go out of state than sit through such a humiliating experience.
After doing all the research on this topic and putting 2 and 2 together, I’ve come to the conclusion as to why there are so many young women in this state with children. They either can’t afford to go out of state for an abortion, or the pro-life religious fanatics have talked them out of the procedure. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against somebody’s beliefs on this issue. You believe in what you believe and that’s your prerogative. But at the same time, I don’t think people should “push” their beliefs on others. A woman should be left alone to make up her own decision and I believe it’s up to the woman to decide what’s best for her. If she’s old enough to consent to sexual relations, than she’s old enough to decide what to do about a pregnancy.
Back to the issue of, should the man be informed if a woman wants to abort her pregnancy? In my opinion, I think if they are married, then yes a woman should talk to her husband about their options. But ultimately it should still be her decision. If their not married, than I think the woman is not obligated to inform the man. After all, the man should have been responsible enough to use protection in the first place.
So what are your thoughts on this issue? I hope to have a well balanced and civil discussion on the matter. Please remember that we all have our own views on this issue, so lets respect others views, even if they differ from our own.
Thanks
(the site I took much of my information from was: www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/sfaa_sources.html “State Facts About Abortion” Idaho)
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Comments
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0 Great topic CR67! Thanks for taking all the time to reasearch and post for us to discuss.
Abortion is understandibly a sensitive topic. The real debate I think is whether or not it is killing a human life or not. If it is killing a person, I think the ant-abortion side has some very good points - if it is not, then the pro-choice side has it right.
Just a thought (and I KNOW I’m going to get jumped all over for this one) I’ll bet if interviewed, we’d find those children are all very glad thier young mother didn’t have an abortion. (I know i’m glad my mother didn’t - I know others today probably wish she had)
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0 0 Excellant job CR67! You need to write more often!
I want to sit back and quietly observe for a bit, but one thing I do want to ask is; you state that the man should have been more responsible to protect himself if they are not married. Shouldn’t the woman have been as well?
One of my issues with it is that the woman (or man) doesn’t protect herself, it’s the man’s fault and he has no say in whether or not that baby lives or dies. Yet, she didn’t protect herself and now she has the right to have the abortion without his consent? If it’s her body this child is affecting, why didn’t she take care of it and prevent pregnancy to begin with?
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0 0 hmm has a good point there.
I looked up Planned Parenthood in Idaho
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/idaho/
and sure enough they have a clinic in Twin Falls but only offer abortions in Boise. They do have a link if you want to get involved with legislative efforts, etc., and have lots of other useful information.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/idaho/get-involved-idaho-5181.htm
That “GetActive” link has something for everyone, religious leaders for choice, republicans for choice, activities for middle and high school students, and a notification service for letter writing campaigns.
I wonder what the rate of std’s is in SE Idaho if so much less info on reproductive issues is available to the general public?
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0 0 Don’t forget as we debate this topic that condoms do break.
The Twin Falls PP does offer Emergency Contraception (EC) over-the-counter for anyone 18 years and older. Anyone under 18 years of age must see a Planned Parenthood clinician or have a prescription to obtain EC.
EC can prevent pregnancy when started within 120 hours after unprotected sex:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/emergency-contraception-morning-after-pill-4363.htm
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0 0 This is a great Planned Parenthood site for the middle school and high school set:
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0 0 re: hmmm’s comment #3, I probably should have pointed out that it’s just my opinion that the man should be “more responsible”. I was brought up, and I personally believe, that a man should be “a man” and by doing that, take it upon himself to use protection (via a condom) and not leave it up to the woman. (and I would also like to point out that I’m speaking in the sense of sexual relations outside of marriage, which of course is a whole other topic) Granted I do believe a woman should also “be responsible” in protecting herself from STD’s and unplanned pregnancy, but in my opinion, it’s a man’s responsibility to take the initiative and always use protection. Crystal pointed out that condoms break, and although it’s rare, it does happen. But you have to understand that birth control isn’t always 100% effective either. But if both parties use protection your odds are much better.
Like I mentioned in the original post, I’m really amazed at how many single young woman in this area have children. Granted, I’m in no way advocating abortion, even though I do think it’s a womans right to choose, but I have to wonder if the reason for this has to do with the fact that obtaining an abortion in this city/state is so difficult. I can’t help but think that’s a major factor for such large numbers of single mothers around here.
What do you think?
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0 0 Crystal, enough with the cut n paste please. Why don’t you offer us your actual opinion and views on this issue instead?
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0 0 My opinion is that public education is critical and have therefore provided information to that end. Why don’t you give us your opinion?
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0 0 Honestly, I think the large number of single women out there has to do with a lot of things;
1. anymore it seems both parents work whether or not they have to. Nobody is around to see what is going on with the kids these days. I can’t help but wonder if parents even know their kids anymore. It’s more about the extra car, the fancy boat, bigger home, etc. The kids take second fiddle and are often left to fend for themselves.
2. I think we live in an age where sex is the norm regardless of the fears of STD’s or pregnancy, it’s instant gratification and suffer the consequences later.
3. Sex education in the schools is practically non-existent and parent often “don’t feel comfortable” talking to their children. So they learn all about it from friends. Scary thought.
Children are for life. I think both parties need to take responsibility but when that “oops” happens, I also think that both should have a say. I don’t think either is less responsible than the other. And I think both need to take responsibility in raising that child should they choose to have it. If they don’t, that should also be the decision of both parties.
A lot of guys bail, still a lot of others genuinely want their child and I’m not convinced they should be denied that right.
Okay, so much for keeping my mouth shut 
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0 0 Sorry, single mothers not single women. 
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0 0 Well said hmmm…. and I completely agree.
crystal, please don’t start in this topic. feel free to carpetbomb any topic but this one. I’m hoping to have a great debate here. I understand what guest was asking…..instead of flooding the topic with links and so called “facts”, why not offer us your view on this issue instead of giving us a “googled answer”.
Thanks & I look forward to everyones response.
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0 0 It seems to me that my personal opinion isn’t relevant, and would surely be attacked just as not proferring an opinion is attacked. Damned if I do, damned if I don’t, so I guess I’ll just have to do what I want.
I think that providing information to persons who may need it and who stumble across this discussion is much more useful than the discussion itself, and have the utmost confidence that if certain persons apply themselves they can stay on topic instead of diverting this debate towards critiques of users rather than ideas.
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0 0 I appreciate Crystal’s info. Who does it hurt? Is scrolling that difficult? Ctrl-end gets you to the bottom of the page in most browsers, where you can see the latest comments.
I guess I’d better venture an opinion here, or else people will complain. Abortion should be widely available. RU-486 should be widely available. The woman doesn’t have an obligation to tell the man. If married, you could probably construe something in your wedding vows to imply that the wife should tell the husband.
There.
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0 0 I think it’s important that any woman that wants this procedure done have it readily available in her community. Why should a woman have to drive 3-4 hours to Boise or SLC only to have to go through a counseling session while listening to somebody try to talk her out of it (because of THEIR religious beliefs) and then make her wait 24 hours?
I also have to agree with Mr Eagle: while I am thankful my Mom didn’t abort me, I still think a woman has the right to choose. (as our constitution has given her that right.) My Mother certainly could have very easily aborted me. My biological father was an alcoholic abusive bastard who came home drunk one night and raped my Mother. I was the product of that rape. Thankfully my Mother packed her bags that night, took my two older brothers and moved out of the state the next day, only to return to see him in divorce court. For the next 12 years she held 2 and sometimes 3 jobs to take care of us by herself without the help of food stamps or welfare of any kind, before marrying a wonderful man. So yes, I am eternally grateful my Mother chose life!
That still doesn’t negate the fact that women have a constitutional right to end a pregnancy. The fact that abortion clinics are few and far between in this state is plain wrong imho.
See how easy it was to offer a “view-point” Crystal?
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0 0 The first sentence in this topic is, “What are your thoughts on abortion?” This, to me, asks for an opinion, yet still allows a response to be supported by facts. The next question, “Are you pro-choice or pro-life?”, can be answered with a fact, and also allows supporting statements of opinion, if so desired.
After reading the article, it appears to me that it is mainly comprised of the author’s opinions and that the author has in no place stated that he is writing as an expert in this matter, and that his opinions have been formed from information gathered from outside resources as well as life experience, in such as manner as many other people have formed their own opinions. The author has provided documentation to the source of some his information and again politely reminded readers that the article is requesting their opinions.
Regarding comments posted subsequent to the article:
It is my OPINION that providing links to Planned Parenthood, though possibly well-intentioned, are inappropriate to the stated purpose of this discussion topic. It is my OPINION that the comment in the chatbox, “…he raised an alarming issue without offering readily available solutions for part of the issues he raises…” has no merit, as the author himself was not purporting to offer solutions. Again, the stated intent of the article was to solicit well-balanced and civil discussion with respect to others’ views.
It is also my POLITE OPINION that the chatbox comment, made by the same guest, “…opinions are for people who can’t find facts…” is quite possibly a violation of both Rule #4 and #5, of the Community Comment Guidelines. A following statement by the same guest, ‘I think some users just want to fight.” was very revealing.
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0 0 Comment #14: “probably construe something in your wedding vows to imply that the wife should tell the husband . . . .”
I would really like to see a sample of such proposed “vows”…”And, in the event wife seeks an abortion, she SHALL tell her husband” ?? “and on this happy occasion, let’s remember that if the wife gets unintentionally knocked up, she is required by God to tell her husband?”
I can’t quite wrap my mind around that.. .would this come before or after the admonition to “love, honor and OBEY”
Just my opinion.
CR67, I think this was a great article which invited healthy debate and started off as a wonderful harkening back to the “old days” on this site….and then….sigh. I hope you don’t really leave; so far, we have lost Mike, Ooh_child, JoseCuervo, Slim Pickens, OK4Now, Babs, Meso and now you, too?
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0 0 Welp, I sure am not pro-death. I guess I never understood the saying pro-life simply because it does tend to sound that if you aren’t pro-life you surely must be pro-death.
I guess I can’t help but wonder if some women find it all to easy to take abortion as an escape route. I recognize that many women have extenuating circumstances that make them feel as if there is no option. Still others I believe are merely careless and thoughtless and self-centered, not only with contraception but with the life of their unborn child. And I do believe it is a life, a very innocent life with no say on the issue, one who is totally at the mercy of the mother as the law is today.
I am almost relieved for the child that some of these women have chosen not to become mothers. By the same token, if the father is willing and able to care for this baby why shouldn’t he be allowed to? And that said, there are many families who cannot have children who would probably take the baby in a heartbeat.
Again, I tend to think we live in a society where instant gratification is the key to life. But not enough want to take responsibility after that instant gratification has become an issue that they choose not to contend with.
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0 0 Tough subject. Good article, CR67.
I am pro choice. My beliefs are complicated, because although I do not believe that the fetus is a sentient human being in the first trimester, I’m not so sure when it actually “becomes” a human being…at birth? or somewhere in between? As I have no religious belief to guide me there, I’m kinda torn.
On this site you also know that I believe others have the right to their religious beliefs, as long as they don’t interfere with the civil liberties of others. In this situation, people truly believe that the fetus is a human being, and therefore abortion is murder, to them. I understand their horror at the thought. But I tend to get cynical when their beliefs are convenient, when they want to murder others in the name of capital punishment, because to me, murder is murder.
I think if we offered more contraceptive (and RU486) choices, the need for abortions would be very rare.
I think the married woman should be able to get an abortion without her husband’s consent. Poor marriage situation, but if it’s her body it’s her choice.
I think the father of the child deserves a say in the matter…but due to the fact that it’s not his body, he really can’t force her to carry a child she does not want, nor can he force her to abort or give up for adoption a child HE does not want. So it’s unfair to him, or unfair to her, but ultimately, where it’s her body, I would opt to be unfair to him.
It’s such a hotbutton issue, and our beliefs are all over the map. We’re good people, I think, and I’m glad to have the discussion.
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0 0 I think abortion is horrible, and wouldn’t occur in the best of all worlds.
We don’t live in that world.
In light of that, I think sex education should be mandated in middle and high school. I think AIDS education should also be available. I think condoms should be available. My own kids are not sexually active, but they have access to AIDS education, to the sites I linked to above, and to condoms. They have accompanied me doing volunteer work with a local AIDS project.
I think contraception, including the morning after pill, and abortion, should be available on demand, and state funded. I have done clinic defense to prevent Operation Rescue from interfering with access to clinics, and no, they don’t just picket, they physically interfere with access.
I don’t think any man should be able to prevent the woman’s access to abortion. I think any requirement to inform the man is dangerous, whether the parties are married or not, and risks causing harm to the parties.
I also know for a fact that condoms break, and it isn’t as rare as CR67 suggests. There was even one brand that Planned Parenthood sued due to the volume of breakage.
Do I believe in promiscuity? No. Do I think anyone aspires to an unwanted pregnancy? No. Do I love children? Yes.
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0 0 I have to comment here before I get back to work. I believe CR67 said he agreed with you crystal that condoms sometimes break, but it’s rare. Being a man that has used condoms all my life (well, for about 25 years) I have never had a condom break on me. Just like different size hands and buying gloves, there are dozens of different sizes, makes and types. And lets not forget the proper way of putting one on. If applied correctly, breakage is very rare. My wife and I still use condoms to prevent pregnancy as she’s unable to use “the pill” as a means of birth control.
I have heard of it happening, and I have a number of single friends that use them regularlly just as I do and never have a problem. But just like anything made in the world these days from cars to toys, there are break-downs in production and a bad batch may be produced. They certainly don’t break all the time as some may have you believe. My wife and I will continue to use them until we’re sure we don’t want anymore kids and then I’ll get a vasectomy or she’ll get her tubes tied. Even THEN, there is no gaurentee. I have a friend that got his wife pregnant and he had a vasectomy years prior. His wife was suppossedly unable to conceive as well, yet she got pregnant and they currently have a happy healthy 3 y/o because of it.
As for the abortion issue. I strongly believe that it’s the womans right and I think there would be alot less single mothers walking around Idaho Falls if there were a clinic available to them. I also agree more sex education should be mandatory for our middle school kids.
Thanks for a great post CR67! I look forward to seeing how others feel about this issue.
(I enjoyed your comments Crystal on #20. It was a refreshing change for your usual format) 
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0 0 It is my opinion that given the lack of services in IF it would be useful to those faced, for whatever reason, with an unwanted pregnancy, to know that they can use regular birth control pills in lieu of the morning after pill.
This can be effective when the first dose is taken within 120 hours after sex, and the second dose is taken 12 hours thereafter.
Rather than bore you with a list of those bc pills which can be used, or upset anyone with a cut and paste, I am providing the below link, which details which brands can be used, how to administer, and also provides medical info and precautions.
As for condom breakage, once is all it takes. My point in that regard was that there is not always any issue of culpability to be argued, as you illustrate with the story of your friends, their vasectomy, and their lovely child.
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0 0 I think abortion should be the womans choice. I do not think the child fetus in question should have any rights in the matter. The mom has to carry it for 9 mo and also feed and clothe it for 18 years. Especialy in rape cases where a woman gets pregnant. Better access to birth control methods might be a good way to avoid it. Humans can’t fight the hormones in thier body and just stop having sex all together. I am strongly for women having choices when it comes to thier own bodies. I do not agree with welfare career oriented females being allowed abortions so they can just make more babies and abort them all thats wrong. I think they should be forced to get fixed if they can’t care for children and wont prevent it.
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0 0 I would love to see how the debate would go if we never knew who would get pregnant when you go to bed with someone. Imagine 2 people having sex, and it’s a complete random toss up who gets pregnant and carries the child for 9 months (18 years). I often wonder if Roe vs. Wade and everything since would have taken a different spin. Would men change their minds, especially those who are staunchly pro-life?
Also, just because there aren’t “clinics” per se in this area doesn’t mean abortions are not, or have not been performed legally in the past decade in SE Idaho by ob/gyn docs.
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0 0 Are these abortion services in Idaho Falls or SE Idaho underground? If not, can you possibly give us more information?
My understanding was that such services were not available, and I imagine without public funding it must be a costly procedure, especially for a young person.
Anyone can show up at a Planned Parenthood in California and get a free abortion if they cannot afford to pay.
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0 0 Good point Reader. I would however like to hear from somebody here locally that works in the medical field. Are abortions performed at OB/GYN facilities on a regular basis? From what laws I have read, they must still go through a counseling session where the counselers will try to discourage the woman and then make her return 24 hours later for the procedure. Can anyone tell us what the standard operating procedure is regarding abortions in Idaho Falls? Or are they only performed under situations of rape, incest or life endangerment?
(this is nice…..like back in the “good ole days” where hot debates where a common occurence)
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0 0 EIRMC doesn’t offer abortions, and their website omits abortion info under women’t health and in their pregnancy center.
I spoke to their House Supervisor just a minute ago, and he told me that there are no medical providers in Idaho Falls that do abortions. None.
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0 0 The abortion provider in Pocatello, a licensed, practicing gyn, retired a few years ago. I don’t know where IF/Rexburg area women go, for all I know they went to Pocatello. What about now? I can’t believe a city this size does not have someone providing this service. It was never on the hush, but it’s something I don’t think medical professionals in this area take out big yellow page ads for either.
Good article CR. I like it when someone writes opinions, and challenges us all to wonder, think, analyze, and discuss a topic together. We don’t have to come up solutions to save the world, but we can exchange info and ideas and learn from each other regardless.
What would happen if high schools here made available condoms and referrals for birth control options, after talking with a nurse or counselor? Without parent permission? I think the conservative nature of the area results in a big panic. Hey, teens are having sex regardless and the more we talk to them about risks and consequences, not to mention how to be smart about protection, will only help them IMO.
When my kids get to be teens, I hope our relationship will be open enough to discuss sex and birth control. If it isn’t, I’ll be glad a smart, even-headed school professional talks to them if they won’t come to me. Of course, school professionals need to keep it neutral and not bring religion into the sex/contraception talk, other than encouraging kids to explore their own personal values, whatever they are.
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0 0 Good point reader.
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0 0 Reader, I think having those available in schools seems to be looked on as encouraging sex, not preventing pregnancy and STDs. I don’t think it encourages sex but I think that’s the general opinion. It is interesting to note that most teens do however, know the risks but don’t adhere to them.
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0 0 OH but then the crazy “protect family values” people get control of the majority.
They need to worry about their own damn family. The same thing goes with homosexuals adopting.
I am pro-choice all the way. That doesn’t mean I think adoption isn’t bad either. Any woman can claim they were raped and get an abortion. Might as well just make it fully legal instead of just half assed.
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0 0 OH but then the crazy “protect family values” people get control of the majority.
They need to worry about their own damn family. The same thing goes with homosexuals adopting.
I am pro-choice all the way. That doesn’t mean I think adoption is bad either. Any woman can claim they were raped and get an abortion. Might as well just make it fully legal instead of just half assed.
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0 0 *That doesn’t mean I think adoption is a bad alternative.
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0 0 Am I still not awake or did I really miss something here?
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0 0 “Pro-Choice all the way” Why? How consistent is that view when you examine it.
We have laws to protect unborn children if they lose their lives through a crime committed upon their mothers before they are born. If they are not human, and not alive, then where is the reasoning behind the law?
We tell mothers not to smoke or drink or use drugs during the pregnancy because they might hurt their unborn CHILD.
Why bother if it’s not a child?
We have BABY showers for the BABY before they are born. But if you use prochoice reasoning then this should be a Potential Life Shower for a Potential Human Blob.
When a couple gets pregnant they have ultrasounds taken to see the BABY before she or he is born. What are the pictures being taken of if it’s not a BABY?
Due to abortion 13 million Black people are missing from our population. That 13 million less people has NOT reduced poverty or suffering for the millions of Black people in this country. Neither has abortion helped the economy of Europe which is now graying out.
It amazes me that we can celebrate a wanted birth as a blessed event with a BABY shower and protect a wanted birth with prenatal care and laws to punish those who commit crimes that kill an unborn CHILD but if you don’t want the kid then its a “mistake” a “blob” “a tragedy” or in the words of Obama “a punishment.”
To say this is hypocritical is being polite. My only solace is that our young people are refusing to buy into that questionable logic and that there is a God who will someday give this world a wake up call back to common sense. Maybe if we wake up one day and see the sky filled with the millions of chopped up babies that we returned to Him dripping blood and screaming “why?” then we will
get it. Until then, I feel sorry for these babies and their parents who often lay awake at night wondering what if.
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0 0 Trimelda,
I can see this is a very important issue to you; what happens on hot-button issues like this, IMO, is that you can’t have the opposing sides reach any middle ground, because anti-abortionists believe that life begins at conception; pro-choice people, for the most part, believe that life doesn’t begin until you have a viable fetus (and of course there is debate on that benchmark, but that is a different issue). As such, I don’t believe we can ever reach a middle ground with each other as the issue really is black and white depending on your personal belief issue.
It is like creationism vs. evolution: destined to be a lose-lose argument as each side has their own belief system, and you can’t really logically argue faith: it is what it is to those who do believe.
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0 0 Trimelda, you have your belief system (I understand you are a pastor now) and I respect that. I know you have done a lot of good as a community activist for people in the past, and I’m assuming you continue to do good as a minister to folks these days.
This is one of those areas, as Easterner pointed out, where we can state our beliefs but understand that others may not share our beliefs.
I am glad you chose to comment here.
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0 0 Nemesis,
What makes you think you know who Trimelda is? And why make a statement that he/she is a pastor without being certain who it is? Wouldn’t it be better to ask the question instead of making a statement? If the person wants to remain anonymous then even if you did know who it was, why would you reveal facts about them if they have chosen not to reveal them themselves? It seems either rude or gives the impression you might be trying to intimidate someone.
Please excuse me if I am wrong on this point. I just know I wouldn’t want to have personal information revealed about me by someone else on a discussion ggroup like this.
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0 0 Winds of the West #38…
Trimelda has a link to a website in her name above her comment. She is a well known community activist in this area.
I had heard she was a pastor, and the website is religious content.
Otherwise I would not say what I said.
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0 0 In fact I was wrong, apparently she is a Bishop in her church, per the website. So “pastor” rumor that I heard was only partially correct.
But I am still glad that she commented her, and hope to see more comments from her.
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0 0 “Winds”
I don’t think you have been around very long….Nemesis is unfailingly polite and respectful of others on this site…….
This whole site has been so nice and cordial the past few days; let’s all keep it that way, hey?
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0 0 Amen to that!
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0 0 I agree! We’ve all made it a point to “get back to basics” around here, and that starts by being civil to one another and by respecting our fellow posters comments, views & opinions. Even if they differ from our own. We welcome you as a newcomer and hope you enjoy the site as much as we do..
Happy debating!
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0 0 There is one thing I wish to add to the discussion that I have not seen addressed.
Abortion has always been around and it always will be. If it becomes illegal, it simply becomes either more expensive (but still available for those who have the financial resources), or more dangerous for those who don’t. You can’t legislate morality.
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0 0 WWFP #44, you are correct, our country does try to legislate morality. The problem is that our moral views tend to change from generation to generation, making many of our laws difficult or impossible to enforce…yet also difficult to do away with.
The harder lesson to learn would be that we shouldn’t try to make legislation that attempts to control the morals of others, and instead, work in our communities to achieve the moral standards we would like to see.
Well! The Artiste, indeed! Nice to see you’ve settled on a name! 
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0 0 First of all, I appreciate your concern for my privacy. But lots of people know who and what I am. No problem there. Secondly, a bishop is just a pastor who does more work and wears funnier hats at liturgy. Call me bishop, cool. call me pastor, fine. Not that important.
I am not bothered by the fact of who I am and what I do. So don’t worry if other people know or find out. It’s okay.
As for the pro life thing, the reason I bring it up is because there are four scientific signs of life: aspiration, consumption of food, defecation and growth. Unborn babies do all four. So they are alive.
Are unborn babies human? Check their DNA. They are human.
So an unborn baby by definition is a living human being.
The argument centers around whether that matters. Slaves were human beings. Silly arguments aside, the slavers knew they were human beings. Didn’t matter. Jews in the concentration camps were human. Didn’t matter. Bottom line is that your humanity only matters if the majority agrees that it matters. If most of us say your humanity doesn’t matter then you can be killed or hurt to the point of sensibilities. In other words, most people feel that killing an unborn baby once they are old enough to survive is well, gross. So they winch at that. But if you terminate the products of conception before they can look like a kid, that’s not so bad.
Scientifically the unborn child is still living and DNA human. But as long as they don’t look human, it doesn’t matter.
That’s why I think this can only be settled by God touching our consciences. Common sense and science point to living human beings, just as it did for Jews and Slaves. Only the hard slap of right and wrong woke us up then and that’s the only thing that will wake us up now.
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0 0 Again, this is merely “your opinion” Trimelda. And just like the religion and global warming debate, each side can be legitemately discussed as their side being the right side. You have your opinion on the issue, which you feel very strongly about, and many of us have our opinion on the issue which we feel equally as stong about. That doesn’t make either one of us correct or more right than the other.
We do appreciate your comments though, but like religion and global warming, more often than not, you won’t sway others who believe just as strongly in regards to Pro Choice. but thanks for your participation.
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0 0 great response, artiste, and may I just add, Tirmelda, that you are categorizing all “unborn babies” together when basic biology will tell us that an 8 week embryo is far removed developmentally from a true “unborn baby” of 24 weeks’ gestation, for example.
I understand that, as I stated above, eveyone has their own beliefs about the big issue of when, exactly, life begins, and I certainly respect everyone’s right to these personal beliefs.
In my religion, bishops are very powerful heads of several churches, collectively called a diocese. Thanks for explaining that the term varies from church to church.
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0 0 Trimelda, I have always been on the fence regarding abortions, choosing to come down on the side of pro-choice because I could not decide how I felt about the “humanity” (as you describe it) of the fetus.
In comment #46 you have made some of the best pro-life arguments I have ever read. I find your reasoning to be very sound, and your examples are logical. I think your sentence “Bottom line is that your humanity only matters if the majority agrees that it matters” is the most astute of all, given the dominating morals history of mankind.
Thanks so much for your comments! I like reading about varying viewpoints, they help me to thoughtfully examine my own ideas.
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0 0 Trimelda, I believe Nemesis summed up my thoughts almost to a “T”. Thank you for your excellent post.
Once upon a time, I thought abortion was okay, and then I only thought it was okay when the mother showed total lack of regard for the baby. Anymore, while I understand so many women believe they have No Choice (not pro choice), I can accept it, or maybe I just accept where they are coming from? I know many women feel the need for counseling more after the abortion than before because it often traumatizes them to such a degree, especially if they believed there was no option for whatever reason. It can literally scar a woman for many, many years.
Perhaps this is why I ask the question, what about the father? So many men bail on the woman and then you see that man who would do anything at all if she would just have the baby and then he in turn, becomes the traumatized one. He’s totally helpless to do anything about it. It’s not his body, but it is his baby. And whether or not religion plays a role in his thinking, he wants to accept responsibility for his unborn child.
The older I get, the more opposed to abortion I become. Maybe we just develop a greater understanding of life and the innocence of a child. Because the bottom line is that the baby is the one who ultimately has no say in the matter.
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0 0 Trimelda, I too thank you for your very articulate and well thought out post on this subject. I just wrote a longer response and the server rejected me. I’ll try again later.
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Great job and an excellent topic. Thank you CR67!