Should Authorities be Separating Mothers from their Children in the San Angelo Polygamist Community?

This whole situation is a two edged sword. By taking the children away from their mothers, what is going to happen to them? The foster system leaves a lot to be desired. Are the kids going to fall through the cracks and become unloved? unwanted? forgotten? abused? The camp they are talking about sending the boys to — what is this? I’ve heard too much about what happens to boys in places like this. But we are talking about 400+ kids here. There aren’t enough foster parents now. My experience and knowledge of group homes is not positive either.

Yet on the other hand, the kids shouldn’t stay where they are (or were). Peggy is right.

But bottom line is that the kids need to come first, and I don’t know what the solution is. I just hope they aren’t going into a worse situation than what they are being “saved” from.

We raised these issues on another site: let’s remember, that when a “hotline” call comes in, alleging abuse or neglect, the state child welfare agency, by law, HAS to investigate; to find at least several underage pregnant girls created a situation which, until everything is sorted out, has to be decided “in the best interest of the child”. That is the standard when the state responds to abuse/neglect calls. Remember that initially, this was not a criminal investigation but rather a “child protective services” (whatever they call it in Texas) agency responding, as they are obligated to do, to a hotline call reporting abuse/neglect.

As far as the ongoing criminal investigation, the evidence of underage pregnant girls at least creates “probable cause” that statutory (at a mimimum) rape has taken place.

I would like to clarify one thing first, since the IdahoFallz.Com has been sold. This is a topic here because………….? I thought the original policy topics were to be locally related. Has there been a change in policy? Could be that the rules I learned are so “old” I need an update.

I know we have polls about national issues, such as Hillary vs. Obama. It just seemed to me that almost every story had a local connection, which may be making national headlines previously.

While I sadly agree with Admin that religion can’t result in a constructive discussion here, I do agree religion can’t be the basis of a discussion.

I agree with Babs, the law is the law. Furthermore, to not take action, those at CPS and elsewhere can subject to legal action themselves. Not sure exactly what that is in TX. Other states can remove licenses, incarcerate etc. So before we assume we know everything of how CPS in TX works, maybe TX law or a guest opinion from someone familiar with CPS in TX (as a professional, not a recipient) is upheld.

I agree with some of Mike’s points directly and don’t with others. Mike, I’m not try to pick on you. Please don’t take my comments personally. I’ve just worked with the FLDS population and see some things differently. As is the beauty of IFz.Com, we are allowed to express different views. However, the same is not tolerated in the FLDS compounds.

Mike’s point #2:
“Some of the women were complicit [sic] with the male perpetrators allowing the abuse to happen and go unreported. For that, they should be punished; however, taking their children away as a result is absurd and counterproductive. Convict them of failing to report abuse, put them on supervision with conditions that would protect the children. Send the direct perpetrators to prison.”

“SOME of the women were complicit [sic] with the male perpetrators allowing the abuse to happen and go unreported.” Mike, probably next to Babs and me, you know almost every woman knows something inappropriate is happening in their home. Where I don’t agree with your statement is, “taking their children away as a result is absurd and counterproductive.”

In a non-polygamist home, would children be removed or not, given the allegation of sexual abuse of minors? Where do children learn what is right in society, if not at home? Do children with no outside contact learn polygamy is a crime and not illegal in the U.S.? Furthermore, it gives me the “hebbie jebbies” (however it is spelled) to have seen the interviews in homes with Warren Jeffs picture openly displayed in almost every room in the FLDS homes camera crews were allowed to film.

How is removing the children counterproductive? It’s difficult and very painful, emotionally. However, to leave them in this environment, appears to me, to only reinforce this lifestyle as “normal.” When you write, “Convict them (the mothers) of failing to report abuse, put them on supervision with conditions that would protect the children,” how would CPS or any other TX authority know a parent is being passive about abuse occurring, if someone doesn’t report the abuse? Do we know enough TX law to know what happens to the passive parent? Some may, but I certainly don’t.

How many times do NON-FLDS women fail to report abuse for various reasons, including their fears? This is a closed compound in TX! Do you really think to Convicting them of failing to report abuse, put them on supervision with conditions that would protect the children? How do these women support their children?

If a FLDS mother follows the FLDS doctrine, how can a parent “protect” say a 14 year old girl if Warren Jeffs, considered the FLDS prophet states he has had a revilation that female child X -14 years old, is to marry an adult male Y (regardless of age - but often one of the older men whose current wives are no longer bearing children)? Will that mother protect her child going against the person she has chosen to be her religious leader, or get her child out of the compound so this marriage does not occur? How is that decision, “supervised,” by the state of TX workers directly responsible to protect children?

Moreover, how often will those found guilty of being complaciant be welcomed back or expelled from the FLDS compound? Furthermore, how do we know CPS workers will ever gain access to the compound again? It has been my experience in the past, that FLDS children who are being “followed,” by local law enforcement to protect them, are often moved to another state or even another country, such as Mexico, so no state laws can be enforced.

No offense intended, but have you worked directly with FLDS parents and children? I have. How are those “complacient mothers,” most of whom have rarely left their compound equiped to deal with either returning to the compound being supervised by a state agency? Or, in the case of at least 4 mothers who testified they would leave the compound to obtain their children back….why would they do that, instead of fighting to keep their kids in the compound? Do those mothers love their children or their religion more?

“3) Many members of the compound were of age when they engaged in sexual activities and had children.” Personally, I don’t know. However, do we know the age the women were forced to marry and to whom? Could some have had difficulting conceiving a child in earlier years?

“Why CPS is grouping these folks in with the others is a mystery to me. I noted a report on CNN last night that interviewed a couple that was 20 years old and has 3 children together. Now, the age of consent in Texas is 16.” My math says at full term, a baby being born every 9 months (with another immediately conceived afterwards - (which usually doesn’t happen the same week they give birth) that would mean this couple has been married 9 X 3 or 27 months.

Most likely, there is at least 12 months between children and sometimes more. Women cannot conceive every day of their menstrual cycle.

To clarify, 20-16 years old = 4 years or 48 months of marriage resulting in 3 children. Could this couple have their dates of possible conception for the female’s menstrual cycle perfectly timed? Maybe, I don’t know. Were the children shown in the interview, or their ages revealed so the audience could do the math? Do we know if there were any miscarriages in this couple? My math shows 48-27 to leave a difference of 21 months - not quite 2 years of marriage.

I know very few women who have been sexually active for 4 years, that are very sexually active ( except perhaps some who have sex 2-3 X/day) who have 3 kids in 4 years. But, those women weren’t sharing “their man,” or even remaining mongomous. Do we know if the father of this couple has other wives, even at a young age? If so, wouldn’t he be spending time with his other wife/wives to procreate as well?

Again, I’m just trying to do the math here. Say the wife who appeared on CNN is one of two wives, then her chances to conceive are decrased 50%. No offense meant to any males or females reading this, but do any of us have a record of sexual acitivity 100% every night we sleep with a partner? Or sometimes does the couple simply sleep?

The CNN example sounds like either extreme planning, plotting the days in her menstrual cycle when she could conceive, and making sure both partners were able to perform their sexual duties that day with 100% luck, or not all of the story is being told, from my knowledge of biology and reproduction.

I don’t know if the male Mike is referrencing above has another wife or not. I don’t know if that was made clear in the interview, since I didn’t see it. Even one additional wife is bigamy. Isn’t bigomy, let alone polygamy, illegal in every state? I do realize that would be the male, not the female in the relationship. Nonetheless, without knowing more, we don’t know how many “opportunities” this couple, in 48 months of marriage had to conceive children.

It is highly doubtful to me, the FLDS community would put a man with 3-4 (or more) wives on national tv. Perhaps this couple was hand picked? Again, I don’t know since I didn’t watch what CNN aired.

Mike continues, “Overall, what this incident tells us is that there are still a large number of Americans that live by their own code–in this case, their “code” is harmful to children and even many women who don’t know any better due to a cycle of abuse.” AMEN to that statement!

“This incident also shows us yet another example of an uncaring government that lumps everyone into a single approach without true concern for the children and vulnerable adults they presume to protect. The cookie cutter, or one size fits all approach to public policy enforced by CPS should be a wake up call to every American that if it can happen to those people on the fringe in Texas, it can happen here as well and we should be very careful to analyze and critique what is going on in Texas.”

I agree with Mike’s statement in that I don’t believe all of us know all the details. However, I disagree with his, “In the end, the fact that we have to ask ourselves who is really abusing who down there demonstrates that the authorities have not handled this situation in the best way(s) possible. To correct the mess they have responded to and in part, created, they need to look at each case on it’s merits.”

Perhaps CPS in TX didn’t handle this situation correctly, I don’t know the law for CPS workers in TX. However, my understanding is they wanted to avoid another WACO. It appears to me, what was done with the FLDS children, was better than WACO.

“Courts in Bonneville County allow incest offenders back into the home all the time. They also allow children to return to abusive homes filled with mental and physical violence, not to mention drug dealing. I am not saying that this is right; however, it is interesting that CPS in Texas has finally zeroed in on this cult because of their religious beliefs. Courts make exceptions all the time….I certainly hope that the Texas Courts will do what is best in the interests of the kids and not political correctness.” So do I.

That being said, I’m not sure they haven’t already have done what is best for the children. When 20 girls under the age of 16-18 are pregnant, isn’t CPS in some cases protecting both the expectant mother and her unborn baby?

“They could start by reigning in CPS treatment of all the adults on the compound as molesters and begin to differentiate who the real threats are and treat them as such.”

Mike, how would CPS or other law enforcement agencies honestly do this? First, they have to be allowed on the property; will they be welcomed at all times? Secondly, you are assuming all adults who have lived at the compound would still be there by the time authorities could interview them.

Finally, do you honestly think brothers are going to tell CPS that they never committed statutory rape, or aren’t polygamists? Rather, it is their cousins or neighbors etc. are those who have committed these crimes. and name them by name so those males can be arrested? What happens if those arrested males name the original males interviewed? How does law enforcement know who is telling the truth?

I agree with Peggy’s comments.

007, you make valid points. However, when 20 girls are confirmed to be pregnant, which men at the FLDS compound will proudly proclaim that was their sperm contributing their DNA, to create a child with these girls? That is admitting to rape and a trial for such. If even one 14 year old was found pregnant, was a tip to law enforcement worth the risk? We know 20 are pregnant. What we don’t know is how many didn’t conceive, for various reasons.

Also, from what I’ve seen, my understanding is this tipster is very much alive and an acurate source, 007. Perhaps the name or age was changed to protect, of shall we say a younger sister being married to a 70 year old or something similar?

Given the dangers to the female tipster, I wouldn’t expect the “16 year old Jennifer,” to be the real caller. The punishment she would receive would be too severe. She would already be severly abused, kicked out of the compound or sent to one of the rehab camps far away. By giving slightly inaccurate details, the only safe way that female knew how to do it, did she protect innocent lives more than disrupt the lives of adults? Do you know what happens to females and males who disobey Warren or his proxy? What education and experience with the real world do they have to survive? That is why Tapestry, I believe it is called, and other agencies were formed.

Call me jaded, or experienced, having I’ve worked with FLDS families. I always laugh when the national news identies them as living in Hilldale, UT/ Colorado City, AZ, TX and one of the Dakotas as well as TX. Hello out there, is law enforcement simply looking the other way for the polygamists living in their states? Or can they not stand to deal with the reality of what exists?

Sorry this is so long - I apologize to all. While not a member of the FLDS church, I’ve seen and heard plenty to write my own book about the lifestyle. I’ve also participated as a team member providing pertinant information to have 2 non-FLDS parents sentenced to prison for child abuse.

Additionally, I was so directly involved creating a safe situation for both the children and mother to tell the truth of what happened at home, with the father sexually abusing every child as well as his wife (and physically abusing her too), the father didn’t even want a trial as he knew he was headed to prison. Rather, this one non-FLDS father headed for prison, ended up taking his own life at a 7/11 on a Sunday morning. He shot himself in front of his children he had victimzed since birth. What a final statement to young children!

My colleagues were so concerned about how this perpetrator’s actions would effect me, given that I was still in training, that I was “debriefed,” given the option of crisis counseling, and a few other things offered when one of my superiors came to my home to tell me, prior to this suicide making the news.

Let’s just say it took me years to pick up a newspaper again to read and not find names I knew, from their less than law-abiding days. And people complain about the wind in Idaho….unbelievable compared to what some of us have seen elsewhere.

Everyone is entitlted to their own opinion. Perhaps some will agree that I know a little about the subject.

Ok4Now, but currently wanting to puke remembering some of what I’ve heard over the years.

I agree with Mike….the authorities should have taken the Fathers / males away from the compound instead of uprooting all these children. Like 007 noted….gestapo methods were used here and it’s a scary thing (if you really think about it), where our government can just come into so many homes and take these children away from their families without a shred of evidence to go on, other than an “unknown girls word”. The same results could have been obtained by allowing them to stay at home and visiting with these folks to get all the information they needed.
I think our government gets scared when they come across such a large community such as this one, living so differently than is what’s considered “normal” in our society. Regardless, that is what’s supposed to make our country so great. BEING ABLE to live the way you choose and NOT having to conform to the way society feels you should be living. Granted, I don’t understand how people can get swept up in cults like this, yet it continues to happen. But at the same time, I do think people should be left alone to live however they want to live, so long as they’re not breaking the law or causing anybody harm.
I think the authorities handled this all wrong. And when all is said and done, I see lawsuits a-plenty being filed for these peoples rights being violated.

It looks like there might now be an arrest related to a fake phone call that initiated the raid:

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=90138

Does anyone know if this is the same Rozita Swinton who is a Barack Obama delegate?

El Paso County Obama State Delegates
(pct #269)

This whole thing is a mess.

You make some very valid points O4N. But what’s more disturbing the post #10. This was what upsets me so much, is the fact that they removed all these children from a single tip that could very well prove to have been false to begin with. I’m not saying there weren’t crimes being committed, but I certainly think law enforcement acted too quickly and they certainly could have handled it better. I also think removing the children from the property has a much more damaging impact on them then leaving them there and removing the men involved. And ONLY the men they had solid evidence against. They still could have conducted their investigation and arrested and removed others as more information came from said investigation. I understand what you’re trying to say though, that in most cases the child is removed from the home. But then again….MOST cases don’t involve 416 children either.

So babs…it’s safe to say you’re “for” them taking 416 children out of their homes, even with the majority of them not having anything to do with molestations or abuse? I think they went a little overboard. It’s one thing to remove those kids their absolutely sure abuse has occurred. But don’t remove the other 400 kids just because some bad things MAY have happened to a few. It’s just not fair imo.

One can say that the matter is not criminal….that is fine and legally correct. However, to state that it is not punishment being inflicted having ones children taken away is a mere legalism placed on a very personal issue. If it were my kids being taken away, I would feel very punished by the state. Frankly, I would rather be in jail than have my kids taken away.

The State of Texas committed over reach in this case, all in the name of protecting children. Who could be against that, right? You don’t cut off the head to save the patient. The fact that these folks live different lives should not be an excuse to treat them all the same. It’s kind of like shoot first and ask questions later. That type of logic and use of governmental power is often not accepted in the United States. Strangely, it seems to be accepted here because these people are different from the “rest” of us and are a “crazy cult”. While both are true, it bears more scrutiny and concern as to the actions of the government.

Can you imagine if child welfare came into a hippie commune and took all the children out because a few of the hippies were dropping acid? The fact that the hippies look and act the same doesn’t mean they are all dropping acid and are a threat to kids. Remove the drug users and let the rest stay and live their lives with some on-going oversight. Alternatively, child protection can and should stay involved to some degree to make sure the children are safe and well cared for.

The same can be said of the Baptist and/or Pentecostal snake handler families and communities. Should CPS take away all the kids of these families because they have snakes in their homes and the children could get killed? How about Jehovah Witness’ that don’t accept blood transfusions as a religious belief. Should the State take away their children too? When does this stop? Seems to me it stops when the government is satisified that it has protected all the children from what some bureaucrat considers harmful parents. I already posted over a year ago a New Mexico State Child Welfare Agency that took a child away from his parents because he was obese and they let him eat Twinkies.

At this rate, the government will take all of our children away finding some reason or other to find us as unfit parents. If that’s not punishment, I don’t know what is. You don’t have to be a lawyer to appreciate the fact that what is going on here needs to be examined and questioned at each turn. Child Protection efforts are necessary and needed; however, acting under the guise of protecting kids doesn’t mean you get a free pass to do whatever it is strikes you at the moment. I could protect kids by locking them in a closet all day so they wouldn’t be exposed to worldly influences that might harm them. I can’t think of anyone that would agree with me on that one….but my use of the language that I was just doing it to protect them can also be used by other supposedly well meaning types to go overboard and edge down that slippery slope we all try and avoid.

I’ve read a few of Mike’s posts here and have to say that I agree with him completely. Which actually surprises me because usually I don’t. But in this case, he is showing compassion and understanding towards the children. They were victimized, and/or re-victimized by the state. That doesn’t help them. Post #5 was excellent. Good job Mike!

noteworthy, Mike, that you don’t address the fact that children were being sexually abused inside the “compound.”

Mike, I think you misunderstood me: I am in no way making this about you or me or anyone except those poor kids.

Here is what you wrote:

” If it were my kids being taken away, I would feel very punished by the state. Frankly, I would rather be in jail than have my kids taken away.”

That is a verbatime quote, to which my reply was that your kids wouldn’t be taken away, because you aren’t in a cult that rapes kids.

Babs, you might get farther with your arguments if you attack the issues instead of making inuendos about a person.

I must agree that it looks very much like you were attacking Mike as an individual instead of discussing the topic.

Saying “well, I hope, Mike, that you are not in a cult that rapes children.” sure looks like you are attacking the person - and really discredits you and all the comments you had made.

Someone could say just as easily, “Babs, I hope you are not a child molester who enjoys trading your recorded child pornography videos on the internet.”

If someone were to truly respond that way about you, I’d bet you’d go off the handle.

Lets keep the discussion about the people, please.

“Jules”

I don’t know you and you don’t know me; that is the blessing and the curse of the internet! So please don’t judge what I would or wouldn’t do…if you read Mike’s post and read what I wrote in context, you would understand it. No one said Mike was in a cult that rapes children.

It just feels wrong, to get them all out, it feels like it’s because “they’re different” rather than “the kids are in danger”.

But…if the belief system says all little girls get married off to old men to start bearing babies…then all those little girls are definitely in danger.

And if the belief system says that little boys will grow up to participate in this practice of marrying little girls to make babies, then those boys are definitely being groomed to be perpetrators and that in itself is abuse.

I just keep thinking the government went overboard out of a fear of someone different than the norm. However, I also can’t see any other way of protecting those girls and deprogramming those boys, if this practice is truly what was happening in that belief system.

I agree it’s a sad sad mess, no matter why it happened. I only hope the kids will eventually be okay, no matter how it is resolved.

Seven reasons to become one of a polygamist’s wives (may offend some people):

http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/22324/48532-seven-reasons-i-m-becoming-polygamist-s

truth or too harsh?

I’ve heard the term “Lost Boys” in relationship to polygamy - what does that mean, exactly?