Will Concealed Weapons or Media Reform Make College Campuses Safer?

And another thing…
There’s absolutely no difference between the media reporting this story or a blog discussion. Somebody logs on and Googles college shooting or any number of key words, and your blog is going to come up right next to Fox’s story or Brian Adams with the nightly news. There’s the same story being told except one is coming from Tom Brokaw and the other from Mike or JoseCuervo!
Until we stop giving these punks a platform to “go out on”, these shootings will never stop!

you said

“I’m against concealed weapons on the campus. That isn’t the answer. It will only make the guns easier for these punks to get. What happens if someone snaps during class? Has an argument over a girlfriend or what have you? If we let students carry guns on campus it’s going to be the wild wild west all over again and thats not then environment I want my kids living in.
”

I would have to strongly disagree with that. First of all if someone wanted to kill someone over a Gf a restriction in concealed weapons will only give him the right to bare arms. I do not think a shooter gives a crap about school policy.

I think its a great idea to allow people with concealed weapons to pack guns in school. Someone with a concealed weapons permit already is packing a gun all over our city. Whats the difference if they are packing the gun on campus?

I also think students with guns is a good idea. Because a shooter will usualy strike so fast and kill so many people by the time the ungunned campus panzi force gets to the scene to investigate its already to late.

The police sure as hell arent going to get there to save anyone. By the time police are called and get there everyone is injured or dead.

I am a student at ISU and I would feel much safer knowing that several classmates could be packing a gun and shoot back if an attack happend. By the time a shooter shot a few students a person carrying a concealed weapon could neutralize the entire situation and save several other lives.(inluding idiots oppossed to weapons on campus)

I like the idea of concealed weapons in school beter than no guns allowed for the good people and the bad guys can break all the rules so easy and just kill us all any time they want, even at a slow pace if they desire.

I also understand there are some un educated folk out there that doesnt see the same connection I might with this whole thing and still think we should all stick to the same procedures. We need to wake up and smell the coffee the current procedures do not work. Do you think a shooter cares about some stupid sign that says no weapons allowed? Hell no they don’t. only his future victims follow all the rules and come to class unarmed waiting for a shooting to happen some day. Its not a question if a shooting will ever happen. The question is when will it happen and where will it happen?

My question is to ISU Staff: How can you protect my safety and my kids safety and student safety with an unarmed public safety force and no students packing a gun on campus?

Utah State currently allows students to pack guns on campus. I heard it has a perfect track record.

I think we live in violent times and we are making a big mistake by allowing anyone to tell us we can’t defend our own lives.

The funny part about this is all the people who get killed in these situations are usualy people against people having guns at all. People will have guns no matter what. I would really like to be at the same level as them if they attack and be able to respond in the same manner they do to prevent my own death.

CONCEALED GUNS ON CAMPUS !!!!!!! I SUPPORT THIS!!!

live free said:
The funny part about this is all the people who get killed in these situations are usualy people against people having guns at all.

Did you make that up? How do you know that? I disagreed with many of your arguments but that statement took the cake. Did someone interview the victims after they were killed to learn their position on gun rights?

I’ll tell you one thing you can believe. The more guns there are around, the better chance a bad person will get one.

Ha ha ha ha ha it looks like its going to pass in Idaho too. Take that conservatives here it is http://www3.state.id.us/oasis/S1381.html

yea its not Political science thats for sure. I get confused about politics. But one thing that doesnt confuse me is the fact students are sitting ducks when gun control laws prevent us from packing guns. Only the wierdo’s are packing guns. That really scares me. I just wish someone would listen to us students and not the outsiders who arent on campus. We want to use our concealed weapons permit to pack guns on campus. I would feel safer and I know several others would feel safer and also they would be safer.

I just wish someone on here would for once live outside the ignorance box and really consider the good views I have mentioned.

Blow by blow of why CR67 is wrong:

1. “Making guns easier to get by these punks” - The punk is the problem not the guns.

2. “If someone snaps during class” - The snapper is the problem not the guns.

3. “Wild Wild West environment” - The shooters that start the altercation in the Wild Wild West are the problem, not the guns.

4. “Stop sensationalizing these people” - The people are the problem not the sensationalizing.

5. “Metal detectors in classrooms” - The lack of detectors is not the problem. The shooters are the problem.

6. “Concealed weapons” - Concealed weapons won’t solve the problem. It’s a form of protection from the problem.

7. “Giving punks a platform” - The platform is not the problem. The punk is the problem.

Joe no one really has all the answers. But for now a bandaide would be nice. Just let the bill pass and let us protect our selves for now since the state and county and campus police can’t. I think the school goes to far regulating a concealed permit that is issued by the county. Yes I agree with joe the concealed weapons on campus would be a quick fix but wont fix the entire problem. The shooter will still die there will still be a loss of life envolved. It would be better if newer affordable technologies came out that had non leathal applications. A sound weapon would be nice or a gun with electrical charged ammuniton would be great. A stun bullet. But for now we do not have those options yet. I think we need to fight fire with fire.

If you wait for the government to protect you have a nice time waiting while some nut job shoots the place up. The government already issues concealed weapons licenses after background screening. That right should not cease at the college gate or classroom door.

Another poster also brought up how the Utah Legislature allowed concealed carry on campus for years—with no problems.

The Senate Bill would codify that local governments and universities could not prohibit carry on campus so long as a concealed weapon permit was in hand and they had reported their intent to the Admin to carry concealed.

We already know that statistics show a positive effect on crime reduction in states with right to carry laws vs. those that restrict handgun possession, i.e. Washington, D.C. is the murder capital of the US. Coincidentally, this is a big reason why some folks have now successfully challenged the handgun ban in DC at the DC Court of Appeals. It is now headed to the US Supreme Court.

Most of the crazed nuts that intend on shooting will not be detered by the threat that someone might be carrying. They simply won’t be thinking on that level. However, if students had the right and the opportunity to arm themselves without being in fear of getting expelled, perhaps they could put the shooter down before he killed numerous people. We will never know.

The bottom line here is that with background screening and record checks we hope to put weapons in the hands of trusted folks that care about their safety and those around them. It is not fail proof; however, we can’t put metal detectors and security guards at every entrance and exit. We also cannot predict when and where shooters will show up. For this reason, we need to allow people to defend themselves when and where they choose to. This is another area where the government should be encouraging people to take personal responsbility to protect themselves. The prime function of government is to protect it’s citizens from harm. When it cannot, it must get out of the way and allow it’s citizens to share the burden and the right to do what it cannot.

I just recalled a recent example of how private citizens arming themselves saved lives. Anyone recall how private citizens volunteering to conduct security at a Colorado Springs Church saved mass carnage by engaging a gunman as he entered the church tyring to kill people? The private citizen put the gunman down before he could kill numerous people. This is a great example of why people should be allowed to be armed and protect themselves.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting/

Here is another good story about Utah State University allowing concealed weapons on campus.
http://media.www.scccampusnews.com/media/storage/paper1165/news/2007/11/21/Opinion/Concealed.Weapons.On.Campus.Aid.In.SelfDefense-3112328.shtml

I think students need to file a tort claim against ISU for violating second ammendment rights. I am currently having a lawyer in the family draw up some papers. We are going to force them to allow concealed weapons on campus by filing and filing and filing until they break. Here is some more info on how successful it is to file against a college for this.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818306/posts

its like under $40.00 to file one. You do not need a lawyer. The court has no choice but to award damages in you favor.

Reader: I couldn’t have said it better myself!! I laugh everytime I read about livefree filing another “tort claim” on this site. What’s he got 4 or 5 filed now?
The fact that he lied about “having a lawyer in the family” fight to get this law enacted is quite amusing, especially since your already allowed to have a concealed weapon on campus with a CWP. Any lawyer would already know this.

CR67- yes, his rambling tirades are getting old. Reminds me of college days in the bars with my friends, when a table of guys got drunk and boasted and rambled on about nothing in particular, thinking they had solved all the worlds problems. (Ok, girls did it too but not as bad.)

Here’s what I found out before “live free” jumps on again and threatens a tort claim against all of us:

I called ISU and spoke with a public safety dispatcher. I asked about the news story and she said it was wrong, students cannot carry guns on campus at any time even with a CWP. I asked her about what the news reported, she said they were wrong.
I called Channel 8 to clarify they ran the story and the guy in the newsroom agreed that’s what they ran, that if you check in your gun with Public Safety and had a CWP, you CAN carry. He said they talked to the head of (or one of) Public Safety and that’s what he said. He was going to check further since I was told differently 2 minutes earlier.

Here is their policy, click on “Policies” - Weapons Storage Policy on the left column.
http://www.isu.edu/departments/pubsafe/

It does say you will not be permitted to carry “without permission of the director of public safety”. So does that mean you can if you have permission and a CWP? This is what channel 8 said. There are exceptions to the rule as you all can read, including storage of guns in vehicles allowed.

Either way, I would check into this more closely before hiring a lawyer and quoting a bunch of sites. But, if it’s less than $40 and so easy to do yourself, why don’t you? Like Idaho Native, with the way you freaked out at a daycare and rant and rave here, you carrying a gun on campus or anywhere really concerns me. You might want to get a grip on the anger issue first and your “everyone is evil and against me and my children” mentality. A gun won’t solve those problems for you.

Either way, I am glad I can lawfully carry a gun and I do. What scares me is mentally ill people who lie on an application, and other unstable people without criminal histories, like the recent college shooter. They’ll get one anyway, and so will anyone who wants a gun bad enough. My husband and I believe in being prepared for ANYTHING.

Hey, Livefree! Stop stealing my thunder.

I called public safety 2 mins ago ang confirmed that. NO WEAPONS ARE ALLOWED ON CAMPUS PERIOD!!!!!! they just told me that on the phone. if you do not believe me call the ISU help desk and have them transfer you to public safety 282-2700 The only way to carry a gun is you have to get permition from the school and they will not give permition period. So you have to sue them for violating your constitutional rights and hit them in the wallet several times until they give in. The more people that file against them the easier it will be.

Well this should be interesting if Local News 8 runs a correction to their previous report.

yeah, that’ll happen!

One of the other issues discussed after every shooting is our country’s (and our state’s) lack of mental health counseling. We make fun of mental health issues, we stigmatize mental health, people lose promotions and jobs if they seek counseling, etc.

An increased mental health climate would seem to attack the root cause of these shootings. And that involves spending more money on subjective things like counseling, and our society being more understanding of folks who need counseling. But that involves hard work and lots of money. We like easy answers like “arm everyone to the teeth for a shootout”.

I have won 3 of them in the past all for harassment and wrong doing of local police. But that has been over the last three years or so and giving you this information will give you my real name so some of you mentaly ill people might try to attack me and really open a can of worms. I do have a concealed weapons permit and would really like to avoid anyone trying to cause me harm forcing my hand. You are getting out of topic here lets focus on concealed weapons in schools. I have never been in jail but I have heard of a law that still stands in Idaho. I havent confirmed it I would love to see someone check into it. It suposedly says when you are released from jail they are supposed to give you a rifle and a horse. I think you can file a tort claim for that and win the amount or value of a good rifle and horse. The state most of the time doesnt fight claims they just pay it to avoid any media attention. they just settle it. Now back to the gun issue.

There is only one point here I am going to make then I am dropping out of this topic.

No one can protect students from being victims from rape, murder, or harm. I think since no one else can protect us students its time to let the students protect them selves. Period.

Very good thought, Joe! We still haven’t figured out as a society that where health is concerned (mental and physical), an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. But how can we all afford to go to the mental health counselor as often as we go to the barber shop? Do psychiatrists have “nurses” that can do the majority of screening and basic counseling? I think free mental checkups would solve a lot of our relationship problems, as well!

good point Mike. I like what the ISU fire arms site has to say about being able to pack a gun on campus. here it is ” No student shall be permitted to carry firearms or other weapons, concealed or not concealed, with or without a concealed weapon permit, while upon properties owned or controlled by the university without permission from the Director of Public Safety”

permission from the Director of Public Safety

permission from the Director of Public Safety

I am going to try this next

I will keep everyone posted if I get the permition or not. It doesnt hurt to try. The dean of students already says no lets see whats public safety says.

I did not once claim it was correct I only said someone commented on that saying it was. I also said someone should check into it and see if its true or not. Read my entire post before commenting please. I would also like to point out that being a problem on here is some people do not read the entire thread and like to make ignorant comments. Read what I said first please. Thank you. I was expecting people to hate me because I do love my freedom to make my own choices. And people will always want to control others choices. I am glad that we live in a democracy and we have choices.

You are right, the second amendment does not discriminate or delineate, but the original purpose was to protect individuals against their government. Protecting individuals against each other is the job of the states. Neither the constitution nor most states ban “kill them before they kill you,” but moral teachings across the world tell us never to kill anyone. Isn’t it time that we as a society embrace this basic moral teaching?

I have no problem with keeping a gun in the home or using one hunting, but I will never use one to kill another for the sole selfish purpose of saving my humble life.

Ok the constitution does say guns are to defend us from our government. but our government is our other people. They are people too. We the people. So technicaly we are the government and defending ourselves against each other is the same.

If anyone hasn’t seen “don’t tase me, bro” make sure you look it up on YouTube pronto!

The law always gets changed or stretched to meet what ever someone wants it to mean lol. It has been that way for hundreds of years.

I was only talking about the snooty remarks people have said to attack me. I wasnt trying to be childish just giving them a dose of thier actions lol

I only get time during classes or at night but today we are out of school I am done at work and I had the day off to relax. So I had time to chat today a bit more than usual.

Channel 8 had a story on their website about University of Idaho President White saying he was glad a Senate Committee pulled a bill that would have allowed the State Board of Education to limit handguns on campus. Does anyone know if the Senate Bill is dead or just being revised?

well I got a response it wasnt exatly No! it was ” I need a detailed justification for why you need a concealed weapon on
campus. We would then need to meet to discuss your request.
“

thanks Joe for the support. I did already mention those reasons. I also carry expensive equipment around worth thousands and also large sums of cash for my other job. So there are more than 1 reason there are actualy 5 or more personal reasons but I am sure there could be 20 more reasons to.

and its funny that once again you didn’t remember what I said . I also said it was for my job didnt I? I do not own the stuff but I am responsible for it. And the cash it isnt mine its my jobs. I fill ATM’s part time. You are really an annoying instagator. You should really learn some strageties on remembering what you read or stop skimming thru and actualy read comments.

Fill ATM’s part time?? ROFL! That’s a good one.
And btw…you’re in college, you really should learn how to spell by now.
The fact is, when somebody brags as much as you do, usually most of what they say is all BS. But hey, whatever works for ya!

I seriously hope ISU denies concealed weapons rights to anyone that isn’t professionally trained. I don’t doubt you’re good with your weapon, but it’s situational training that counts in such scenarios. Also, my opinion is that Guest_007 does not look like a ranting lunatic.

So, if we use 007’s logic we should not let people drive after taking a short driver’s exam and test–it lasts less than a few hours. People are constantly going out and killing other people by not adhering to traffic safety laws. Many people die from speeding, failing to yield, driving drunk, or from lack of appropriate maintenance on their cars-i.e., headlamps, brake fluid, brake lights, etc….. There we have it….take away driving privileges! That will surely solve the problem….we suspend people’s licenses all the time….doesn’t stop them from driving.

It is interesting that many people want to take away gun owners rights to carry for personal protection because of some imaginary college boundary. Yet, we can carry in grocery stores, malls, movie theaters, restaurants. What is so special and sacred about a college campus? It’s not like going into to a courthouse or airport where security is expected and restrictions are legitimate.

It also shows ageism on the part of many people. Just because chances are there are more young people on college campus’ doesn’t mean that they are not just as able as a middle aged person to safely operate and utilize a firearm. However, there are also many non-traditional (older students) returning to campus’ as well. I know many young people that can shoot a gun better than older people. Next thing you know, there will be people advocating for age restrictions. If you are under 21, no guns for you. If you are a senior citizen over 65, no guns for you either….you are probably too old and senile to shoot straight! The arguments become ridiculous and infringe on the rights of people to protect themselves. We cannot make public policy based on age considerations with persons that are legally issued concealed weapons licenses. We should not be making public policy based on location issues either, with the exceptions of areas that require security, i.e. airports, courthouses, etc. Yet, that is what is happening….and people are still getting killed. Obviously, these public policies are not working. The status quo will not do. Public policy needs to be shaped on a belief that people can and will defend themselves better–and quicker–than police departments can or will be able to do based on time and distance factors. It is high time that politicians and educators recognized this fact. They should get out of the way and stop trying to take away personal freedoms to protect ourselves from those that obviously could care less about our rights to life, well being, and safety. These politicians and college presidents will not take care of our families when we are killed or injured. That, my friends, is up to us and us alone.

Maybe allowing concealed weapons on college campuses will help in more areas than just campus safety. Kids today are so coddled and pampered, they have no idea of the dangers that young people in other parts of the world experience every day. First-time American travelers walking through foreign airports are often surprised to see soldiers walking around with machine guns.

Maybe if we allow guns on campus, thereby entrusting young people with a great deal more responsibility, maybe our young people will mature into that responsibility? Maybe they will take it more seriously, taking it upon themselves to learn more about gun safety and taking some time at a firing range so they can be more accurate.

When we tell our citizens they cannot be trusted with this that and the other, they act like they cannot be trusted. I forget what the concept is called in education, where a teacher communicates their expectations of the students and so the students behave that way.

I also think that would be returning to the days of the wild wild west and we all know how well that worked. Frontier justice in a modern world is definately not the answer. With the alcohol abuse on most campuses, I surely don’t want to be around with a bunch of drunk 19 y/o’s showing off their weapons at a party. it’s just an accident waiting to happen. I don’t know how ISU is, but the Univ of Miami there were parties every night of the week, and there was always somebody getting into a fight. That’s all we need is to now arm our kids with weapons to protect themselves from “school shootings”, and they’d be using them in bar fights and over zealous/jealous boyfriend & girlfriend issues. I sure hope it doesn’t happen in MY lifetime!
If you want to arm somebody, I say arm the teachers or like 007 noted, add more school security. You pay out the nose for a college education anyways, what’s a few more thousand dollars? That’s certainly better than the alternative in my book.

excellent point BobbyD!

I don’t know about 007’s experience, but I know Florida requires a 6 hour course when applying for a CWP, but that was back in 1999. I believe it was moved up to 8 a few years ago. (I’d have to check on that) Same for Texas and New Jersey. Those are the only states I know about. Each are different in their requirements and when moving to a new state, you have to re-apply. You’re concealed weapons permit is valid in some states, but not all. Each state is different and it’s important to find out the requirements before driving over state lines with a firearm. From what reader notes, Idaho’s CWP is pretty lax. (that to me is scary!) Thanks for the info though….that’s interesting.

Well I am glad to see everyone is thinking this thru real good. I like Mikes Ideas he has good points so does Joe and everyone else has some good points.

Let me ask this question. What should be done to prevent a gunman from pulling out a gun in class and emptying his clips into the class room of people in only a matter of seconds with out warning?

Seriously No BS on this!

Common sense MOST college kids aren’t going to both to arm themselves with when they walk into the courthouse to their CWP and walk out 10 minutes later. Sure their are a lot of hunters in Idaho, and I’m sure a lot of people that know firearm safety, but I’m sure theres just as many that have no clue. And those are the ones that scare me.

Most people who want guns have been exposed to them most of thier life and already took hunters safety and had countless hours practice using a firearm. My dad always said if you get into a gun fight with a bunch of gang members and you practice all the time with your pistol. You have the odds in your favor. I think 5 punks VS 1 person who grew up around guns. All 5 punks would get dropped before they could hit that person. Firing a gun at a target isnt as easy as it looks and some guy off the street wouldnt stand a chance against a person who has practiced with thier gun alot. I have a Springfield XD40 and I know for a fact I can hit my target everytime and that gun will never misfire lock up or have problems it will fire as soon as I pull the trigger and it has excellent safety features. It is impossible for a small child to fire that gun. It has 1911 and Glok features on it like the grip safety and the trigger safety you have to grip and pull dead center on the trigger or it wont fire. That gun is the best gun a person could buy for around 319.00 at sportsmans warehouse. I recommend this gun to anyone interested in carrying a concealed weapon.

Here is an article talking about the law - let’s get Idaho submitting NICS records!!

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/LegalCenter/Story?id=4306362&page=1

Lotta misinformation going on here about CCW in Idaho. Read the Code here: http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=180330002.K

It takes a month or better to get a background check done. The sheriff (by law) has 90 days to approve or deny a CCW application.

A little common sense approach here would be wise, IMHO. First of all it is dead head wrong to think that eliminating guns will solve all our problems. There are millions of the things out there to begin with. The mantra of “If guns are outlawed only criminals will have guns” is absolutely true. It’s part of what makes ‘em criminals. On the other side of the coin, we can’t be arbitrarily allowing anybody who wants to carry a gun, do so. Accidents will happen because somebody doesn’t have their brain plugged in, is easily excitable and mistakes someone carrying a stick for a gun and plugs him. There is no screening process to filter those kinds of people out, and believe me when I’ve seen them out at the range doing their Rambo spray and pray, I think I’d feel safer if I was their target instead of being beside or behind them.

What should be done is that the college director of PS invite the would be applicant to take a course from a certified firearms instructor who would be able to objectively evaluate the applicant’s worthiness and train them how to properly handle a firearm and a crisis situation. A 4 to 6 week course that the applicant would have to pay for. If they pass, let ‘em carry.

I think its a good idea for the people who do not have gun exprience. I think some aditional questions on the concealed weapons application could decide who should take classes. Just like geting a drivers license and you take a driving test. It should be the same for concealed weapons premit applicants.

You know what, its your second amendment right to have guns and carry them. You start making it harder to have our freedoms then eventualy no one will have any. Maybe it just needs to start with the people who are gun owners that carry guns to take responsibility. I am not going to go into a federal or state government building and beg for my constitutional rights.

There is a problem with anything today. There will always be the few that cause problems. I say let society deal with those few and leave it the way it is.

No more guns in schools! Will just lead more people to guns. Go spend a month teaching in BFE Cambodia, where 8 year olds come to class on a daily basis. God I love that country!

Interesting article about Utah colleges, where the legislature okayed on campus concealed weapons and the colleges are fighting it in the courts.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html

One person’s comment: “”The only people that should carry guns are trained officials.”

What’s the diff betwen a trained official and a trained citizen? The real issue is what to do in the heat of the moment when a gunman opens fire. Where are the trained officials? Where are the trained citizens? Which are statistically more likely to be in shooting range of the gunman? Officials do not have the market on weapons training.

I don’t think the on campus guns will completely prevent these shootings. The article points out the Trolley square Square mall shooting where it took an off-duty officer to take the gunman down. However it is one piece of the larger solution.

If our legislature allows guns on campus, I think they need to also add funding for a shooting range on each Idaho campus. Require anyone who attends classes and holds a CWP to put in a practice session at the range once per month. This would send a great message of responsibility with the increased privileges.

The University of Idaho operates a working gun range in the basement of their Memorial Gym. I’ve used it. Do other Idaho campuses have a gun range? Shouldn’t they?

Joe, thanks for bringing up the Trolley Square incident. If that off-duty officer had followed the mall policy that prohibits carrying a weapon on mall property, there would have been more people killed that day. Trolley Square didn’t allow weapons to be carried on it’s premises.

So, let’s see, the bad guy and the officer both didn’t adhere to the policies of the mall. What does this tell us…..it tells us that when you prohibit law abiding persons from carrying to protect themselves it can get more people killed. Anyone remember when the government went around collecting guns from the population of New Orleans? We know the results of Post-Katrina. New Orleans underwent an even larger crime wave than before. To all of those that willing gave up their firearms, they saw the results. They had no means to protect themselves. The government did a lousy job of protecting life and property. Murders skyrocketed and armed robberies and assaults increased. Why can’t people learn from these experiences as stop handing over their rights to the government? I won’t infringe on anyone’s rights to carry unless you are a mental nut job or a felon. Otherwise, if you obey the law, you can and should carry to protect yourself, your family, and your community.

It seems to me that conducting a training course for concealed weapons holders would be a great idea. They could demonstrate proficency to use a firearm safely and under stressful conditions, as well as being schooled in the law of when deadly force can be utilized. It would seem to me that every two or four years, a proficency exam could be held allowing for renewal of the license. This is a good common sense idea that most people could get behind and feel good about.

Well what was the reason the ISU public safety officer gave for denying your request? Or did he/she give any reason?

they denied it even with a good cause. My cause is the Campus can’t guarentee our safety. So I wanted to defend my self by packing a gun on campus. According to the policy its up to him. But he claims to apeal with the Dean of students. He made the comment that they have not issued permition during the 15 years he worked as the public safety Director. He doesnt think that Campus shootings and no security is a good enough reason. I think the campus has more power than the president of the united states. The campus can envoke any constitutional rights they want.

Get the President to deny the request in writing. Begin making a paper trail. This will be useful if you need to goto court. It will also force them to state the reasons for the denial. This will be a central issue that a judge will decide the case on later. Make sure you send your request for a written reply–send it by registered mail and keep the receipt. Same thing goes for the Dean. Once you have exhausted all administrative rememdies, the case is ripe for a lawsuit. You can contact the NRA to see if they have any lawyers in the area itching to take the case.

I think you should. But your request should be in writing, polite, brief and to the point. Send it registered/return receipt requested like Mike said. You have to keep a reliable paper trail on everything. I would keep opinion, rambling, threats, etc. out of any letter right now. Stick to the facts. Perhaps something like:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you Feb xx, 2008, about my request to carry a concealed weapon on campus. I am a current concealed weapon permit holder for the state of Idaho, permit #xxx. I would like to have a copy of your denial in writing. Please send it to:

your name, address, etc.

I am not sure if you need to remind him you hold a permit for the state of Idaho, but I would. What do others think?

So it was just a gun industry bill then. We didn’t get the important campus-related issue we wanted, but the gun industry got their deregulation. How again is that making us safer?

Which lobbyist wrote it for our legislature to rubberstamp it?

What a bunch of tools our lawmakers have become. They represent everyone with money except us taxpayers.

Well I have to perserve my right to goto school if I take this any further they are going to expel me so I am seriously throwing in the towel sorry guys.

Expell you? For what? Asking to have concealed carry? Tape record them telling you that and you will have a gold mine. I truly hope this is just a misunderstanding like, “If you are found to be carrying on campus, you can get expelled.” I can understand that statement, even if I don’t agree with it.

I find it difficult to believe that they would be successful in expelling you for petitioning them for your right to carry.

live free - stop on the dollar signs in your eyes and read Mike’s post again. I am pretty sure they are not dumb enough at ISU to say they will expel you for asking. Mentioning you could be expelled if you are found carrying makes much more sense. You haven’t been exactly clear on where this line of thought came from.

Your posts 100, 101 and 103 mention nothing about this comment, “threatening to expel you” seems to have come from left field. What are the facts here, not assumptions? What happened to requesting their initial decision in writing? You can still chose not to pursue if further if you wish, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

You cannot be expelled for making a request. If you turn into a huge nuisance, and break the law, and disrupt the education of others, that’s another thing. Best thing you can do is stay level-headed and stick to the facts here when telling us what happens so we can use our best judgement to give you advice when you ask. We need the whole story, not pieces. Good luck.

Well, if that’s true it sucks but I still think if you mind your p’s and q’s and stick to the facts of written communication and documenting everything, at least you have a pretty unbiased paper trail for later if needed. But, I understand your concerns about taking the risk.

Saw this today on Ian Fennel’s blog on the Idaho State Journal website. The rest of the article had to do with the mock mall shooting training Chubbuck police did last week to train mall employees and officers how to be safer and react with hopefully better results. Wonder if IF police have considered a similar thing for the GT mall. (though they’ve been a little busy of late!)

Anyway, the last few paragraphs caught my eye regarding college campuses:

“His department did just that when it trained last week for a mass shooting at Pine Ridge Mall. Law enforcement agencies everywhere have no choice but to follow suit. In fact, Idaho State University is planning to host a mock shooting on its campus so that authorities will know how to respond if a Virginia Tech-style rampage ever happens there. The world is a dangerous place and it seems all the good guys can do is make sure they’re prepared for a growing array of threats.”

I wonder when ISU will have the mock shooting training? Should be an interesting experience for those involved.

That IS funny. No guns on campus, but we will hold a gun show on campus?

Commerce is good.

Wow!!! I am so astonished by Bobs comment. Good job man. I think most people wish they had a gun when they find out they only have a few seconds to live because some maniac is going to kill them. I do not think ISU will allow a person to carry on campus till a V-Tech attack happens here and several people die. I think that sucks and really could be avoided by allowing students to carry. I noticed they let a law enforcment student pack a gun Saturday during the gun show at the theater entrance. I saw one guy get real mad when they told him to remove his concealed weapon and place a zip tie in it. He told them to kiss his *** and took all of his display guns and left lol. I was at the gun show most of the day. They had some serious fire power there.

I am torn on this issue. While I am a libertarian and want to have everyone armed to defend themselves against the hostile government, I would rather not have everyone armed out in public.

I know the arguments pro and against this. I see public shootings occurring, especially at colleges, where folks think they are safe. So I’d like to compromise, too, as CR67 mentioned…is it possible to have staff be armed?

Although my exhusband, who is a professor, would not carry a gun, so maybe that might not work so well. Yet metal detectors and searchpoints are not feasible.

I can’t make up my mind on this one. I voted ‘no’ on the poll but maybe I’d change my mind after some time and thought.

Excellent point, you’re right, Bob. If staff are armed, they’d be the first targets, then sitting ducks all in a row would be next.

Just as with armed undercover air marshalls, you’re not supposed to know who they are, so you’d have a hard time guessing who else in the classroom or hallway is armed.

I guess the only way to see if it works is to try it. I would think the NRA would be a primary proponent of this, and they pack a lot of power…so why don’t we have this in place?

I’m from rural KY…that statistic seems really low, unless it’s skewed because urban adults typically do not carry vs rural adults.

But, if they do go for it, I’d like to see it publicly advertised. That to me would also be a deterrent, that you might not want to plan something in a school where you’d be a target if you tried.

On the other hand, “shot down in a blaze of glory” might be what you’re hoping to get on your tombstone…

Bob….I couldn’t find any info regarding concealed weapon permits in the colleges in Utah, so would you mind forwarding us that information and/or link? I’m all for people carrying concealed weapons to protect themselves, but if you think nobody would get caught in the crossfire like others have noted, then you’re sorely mistaken. I guess nobody can really that reality until it actually happens. But it’s not like the gunman in these cases stand in one spot with all the students in front of him firing. They walk around the rooms firing at people BECAUSE the students don’t just sit there like “sitting ducks” as you put it. Their too busy running, crawling and trying to hide. So there is going to be a much greater chance of having at least a student or two behind the perp and a student or two in front of him all trying to put this punk down. And I can garuntee you somebody is going to get caught in the crossfire. Being in a real life situation with adrenaline pumping while you’re trying to aim at somebody trying to kill you, is much MUCH more difficult than standing (relaxed) at a gun range trying to hit a stationary target.
Many of us HAVE done the research so don’t tell us to “wake up”. Just because you’ve read some statistics, doesn’t make you an expert in the field.
I appreciate your point of view and your opinions, but don’t presume to think you have all the answers.

Okay, livefree, you just created another issue for me. I was almost ready to say it should be okay, because there wouldn’t be a gunfight/crossfire issue, when you raised the issue of how to know who the original bad guy is in the first place, if there are several shots fired and several folks have their guns drawn?

Not only for the police/SWAT, but how will anyone else with a gun know, in the general melee that will be occurring, who to shoot? Someone with their gun drawn? If many have their guns out, OUCH!

I just can’t see it, yet. So I guess you should wear your bullet proof vest to class. And probably to any other school that you go to (your kids) and your daycare and your courthouse because the list of public places where you’re not supposed to be packing is not limited to the college campus, is it?

Good point Nemisis….very well put.
It’s ashame that livefree is so “matter of fact” regarding this and every issue he speaks about. He’s what 20-21 and he’s got ALL the answers.
He “knows for a fact, that not allowing students to carry guns is a mistake”. WOW….bold statement. Espeically since before the Columbine incident, seems we all did just fine didn’t we?
Hmmmmm…..wonder why that is? Would you care to enlighten us with your infinite knowledge livefree??
Please?

Ok, we’ve certainly discussed the guns on campus issue a lot, and I think generally people recognize it could be somewhat of a solution, it could have some drawbacks, but mostly it is not going to be a cure-all for campus shootings.

What is a cure-all for campus shootings? What about media reform? What about glamorizing the shooters? How many interviews did we see of this latest guy’s girlfriend after that shooting, talking about his meds, etc.?

What about mental health issues in America? Nobody has approached that can of worms, and I think it’s because we know that is probably where the solution lies, and we also know that is going to be the hardest solution for us to do.

Here is some info. on Utah’s concealed carry law:

Taken from Breitbart.com:

As states and colleges across the country review their gun policies in light of the tragedy, many in Utah are proud to have the nation’s only state law that expressly allows the carrying of concealed weapons at public colleges.

“If government can’t protect you, you should have the right to protect yourself,” said Republican state Sen. Michael Waddoups.

Utah legislators and law enforcement authorities said they knew of no modern-day shootings at the university. But one lawmaker cited a shooting rampage in Mississippi in 1997 as an example of how allowing others on campus to arm themselves can improve safety: After a teenager shot two students to death at Pearl High School, an assistant principal chased the gunman down outside and held him at bay with a .45-caliber pistol he kept in his truck.

Nationwide, 38 states—including Virginia—ban weapons at schools. Of those, 16 explicitly prohibit weapons on college campuses, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. In other states, each school is allowed to formulate its own policy.

For decades, the University of Utah banned concealed weapons.

“Our view was that there was an increased risk of both accidental and intentional discharge of a firearm if more firearms are present,” said spokesman Fred Esplin. “It was a matter of safety.”

But in 2004 the Legislature passed a law expressly saying the university is covered by a state law that allows concealed weapons on state property. The university challenged the law, but the Utah Supreme Court upheld it last year.

Utah is easily one of the most conservative states, and the Legislature is dominated by Republicans, many of whom have a libertarian streak. Utah has no motorcycle helmet law, for example, and there is strong affection for the Second Amendment.

Lawmakers point to a recent shooting at a downtown shopping mall as evidence that concealed weapons prevent additional deaths.

Armed with a shotgun and a pistol, 18-year-old Sulejman Talovic randomly shot nine people at Trolley Square, killing five, on Feb. 12. He died in a shootout with police. An off-duty Ogden police officer carrying a concealed weapon—in violation of mall policy—pinned down Talovic with gunfire until other police arrived.

“Thankfully that officer disobeyed the rule of Trolley Square of having no guns,” GOP state Rep. Curt Oda said.

Oda said banning guns on campus might do more harm than good. He said people bent on violence might resort to other, perhaps bloodier methods, such as swords.

“A person that’s got skill with a sword in a very big crowd could put a lot more people down with a sword than a gun,” he said. “They’re silent. You’ll have people screaming, but nobody knows what’s going on.”

Some of those who work at the University of Utah said they feel more secure because concealed weapons are allowed.

“What happened at Virginia Tech might have been stopped,” said Christine Zabawa, a medical researcher at the university.

So, Utah has had the law since 2004. No problems so far. Hope this answers some questions.

Live Free….don’t get baited into describing your personal life to 007 or anyone else. That is a common debating tactic to take you off point about the issue and make you focus on YOU. No disrespect, but YOU are not the issue here. Don’t fall for it next time. Make your point on the issues and leave yourself out of it as best you can. It is tough sometimes, believe me, I know it–when the slams come in just give em back, only do it with facts. Putting your personal information on here only gives the other posters more about to use (pardon the pun)….and they will use it against YOU!

I am a student at isu and a ccw holder I carry just about everywhere I go but I am not aloud to carry at school the place I feel most venerable.
When concealed carry was first discussed in Florida just about all of the negative comments, I have read hear, were sad there, and non of them have proven true and now 39 states have concealed carry and they have been better of for it.
The right to defend one own life is as fundamental as life it’s self. I have the right to live and no one can tell me I do no have this right or the right to protect my self, whether I am in school or out. However I am a law abiding citizen and that is why I have a licenses to carry in the first place so I don’t carry at school, but that dos not make it right.
So I support the idea that students should be allowed to carry on campus.

Guest-007 , here’s your info on Utah. I hope the links work. It was easily found on Google.
I certainly don’t mean to sound disrespectfull. But statistics seem to be over looked about conceal carry. The stats are there for everyone to see and most antis choose to pic one or two instances out of millions of ccw carriers and run with it, just like the media does. The evidence supports WE ARE THE MOST LAW ABIDING CITIZENS IN THE COUNTRY. It’s a fact. The last thing I want to do is pull my gun. And if I do for no good reason, I go to jail and my permit is revoked. The “john Wayne wanna be” comments really get me. My whole family doesnt even know I carry. I don’t tell anyone. Its no ones business, so I dont get a “charge ” or attention out of carrying a gun. I can carry in Ky openly wihout a permit, but choose to conceal. I have a basic human right to self defense and NO ONE has the right to tell me I cant defend myself.
I never said there would be no risk involved in carrying a weapon. You notice I dont specify college campus because I see no difference carrying there or Walmart. There is always a danger of cross fire etc. Each situation is different. There are innocent people killed all the time by cops and swat in hostage situations. Its a hazardess position to be in. Cops hit their mark 30% of the time. I can do better than that. I’ve been through tactical training. Cops are required to qualify once a year. Most ccw carriers practice much more than cops.
You say you are for conceal carry to defend ourself, but if it’s on a college campus its more like ” sorry buddy you die”. I don’t get it.
In the last Illinois school shooting security ( if you wanna call it that) responded within 3 minutes. Thats fast. But 6 people still died and many injured. Until they put a cop in every room, there is no safety.
The reason I say WAKE UP , is because facts are facts. This isn’t just about opinions. I dont mean opinions aren’t invlovedthey certainly are. Most I hear from anti’s are unproven facts. My facts can be proven and if there is something out there you find to counteract them, let me hear it. Oh and for the record I’m over 50 yrs old, so I do have life experience.
You also made a comment about before Columbine we did fine. Maybe the media glamorizing it? It was a high school. Not of legal age to carry guns anyway. Something else people dont think about, you have to be 21 to carry. It would be a small population carrying on a college campus.
I was at Heath High School the morning of one of the first school shootings, so I know the horror.
To JO Vandel. I agree something needs to be done about the mentally ill getting guns legally. I dont think anyone would dispute that. But the fact is, they can get guns another way. Just like drugs are illegal.
To Nemesis. No there has been no shootings at these schools. No one can say its because of conceal carry. Many schools who do not allow ccw havent had shootings either. But we also dont know if it has prevented one either. No matter if it’s a school or where it is, if a shooter knows people are carrying guns , it’s the last thing he wants. These phychopaths want to be in control to the very end thats why they shoot themselves. The last thing they want is for someone else to shoot them. If we dont allow ccw on campus, the criminal has full control.
The links to Utah ccw on campus are below, Hope they work. Peace.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html

http://akeyboardanda45.blogspot.com/2008/02/concealed-carry-and-college.html

Thanks to Mike & Bob for providing me the info regarding the cwp on the Utah college campuses.
I believe we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. There are valid points on both sides of the coin here and the “facts” can be prven either way, just as with many of the discussions on this site. We all have our own views and opinions on this topic and like the religious, global warming & other hot topics on this site, neither side is going to convince the other regarding their opinion.
I do believe Joe makes some valid points regarding the “glamorizing” of these lunatics after a shooting occurs. I believe it we don’t give them their 15 minutes of fame everytime something like this happens, these occurences would drop dramatically. More often than not, it’s the “suicidal loner” who can’t seem to make it in society so he figures he’ll go out with a bang (no pun intended) and get his 15 minutes of fame & get his spot in the history books. This needs to end first and foremost.

I totally agree with the media side of this, but we all know that’s not going to change. It’s big news and people want to be informed.
My main point here is I feel I’m not really stating “opinions” I’m stating statistical facts. When someone says ” We’ll have students pulling guns over a test score or a girlfriend or any other minor incident”, there is just no evidence to back that up. We have over 20 years of conceal weapons being issued and very little crime from it. We have a few years of college campus carry with no incidents.
Can someone with a ccw permit commit a crime? Sure, it happens, but they could get a gun anyway. A permit is not going to make a difference. Good people do go bad. But when you look at the stats, the use of guns for self defense verses crime is waaaay more.
If we give drivers license to 100 kids a small percentage is going to drink and drive or drive recklessly. Its a calculated risk we take in everything we do. By stats .02% of permit holders are convicted of a crime.
Anyone can get a gun if they want one. There is risk in anything we do. People need to get over this “cops are the only way to handle crime” thing. They arrive in time to take a report and clean up the mess. Some dont even keep their guns clean. It’s a reality people dont want to think about.
I encourage you to watch the video below. Have a good day.

therhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ&mode=related&search=e is

use the embed code found to the right of every player

I do believe it could be “less glamorized” in the media. But it will always be reported. You are right. If they withold the names and photos of the perps, it would be a good thing. I just don’t see them not atleast reporting the names.
I just dont see many stats on your side that prove me wrong. I agree to disagree.
Have a wonderfull day.

Check out this story about a local retailer selling a belt with a fake gun on it. One lady who was shopping was pretty ticked off about it. The manager said it was their right to sell it under freedom of expression. She is right…..but perhaps this is not the best item to be selling to young people. What do you think?

http://www.localnews8.com/global/story.asp?s=7989307

What about those ads that say yo-yo’s were originally invented as weapons? Maybe we could all start carrying those. But would we need a Concealed Yo-Yo Permit if we went on a campus?

Let’s not start with the videogame industry now! For years they have had a rating system with games and it’s clearly up to the parents to enforce this. I know Wal-Mart enforces it as I’ve seen it happen a number of times. I even saw a mother trying to purchase an “M” rated game for her 7-8 y/o, but they wouldn’t sell it to her because she didn’t have her ID with her. I thought that was great! It was rather funny too because the woman got really upset over it. I didn’t feel she was a very responsible mother to begin with buying her son such a violent game. The games these days are very realistic and that’s whats so fun about them. But parents need to step up and be responsible when it comes to keeping an eye on what kinds of games their children play and what kind of content they access online.

We can get rid of violent video games after you get rid of violent literature, television, and movies.

OMG??? this is starting to get nutty.

This is a test. I picked this topic at random. I’m just trying to see if it gets accepted or not. If you see it, ignore it.

The distiction is the human on human violence. There certainly are certain skill building that can be gained from video games. The military uses them to train soldiers. Airlines use them to train pilots. I’m not saying all video games are bad or lead to voilence, but it had been been proven that young people who submerge themselves in ultra violent games like “Grand theft auto” can become desensitized to human on human violence. The professional associations were like the “American Association of Psyciatry”. I did not write them down, but I’m sure with a little “googling” you can find the studies. Sorry, LE stands for law enforcement. Lt Col. David Grossman,(goole him too)also credited the increase in violence in TV and movies as contributing to the increase in violence in society.

I support concealed weapons on campuses, and I support parents moderating their kids in media consumption, but I think these issues are just low-hanging fruit. They are easy to fixate on as the source of these shootings, but they are not the true solution.

I think the true solution is much more difficult, and it lies in our mental health environment. The JoAnn Wood project is an example of a step in the right direction.

What else can we do to improve the mental health and mental treatment environment in America?

Read this story about the State of Michigan. Michigan enacted a shall carry concealed weapon law. Many chicken little doomsdayers said there would be blood in the streets as a result. They were wrong.

http://www.gunowners.org/op0235.htm

Look at the state of Florida. In 1987, they enacted a concealed weapon law. There were naysayers there too. Opponents said Florida would be turned from the Sunshine state to the Gunshine state. They were wrong. In fact, FBI statistics showed the murder rate reduced 39% over a 10 year period after the law was enacted.

A recent example in Texas also showed a legislator who opposed a home defense law with weapons as getting a little taste of what the law was meant to help. This legislator had his home invaded. He used a firearm to ward off his attackers…shooting one in the process. This Democratic lawmaker admitted he was wrong to vote against the bill. He is now a firm believer that guns can and do save lives unlike what gun control advocates would have you believe.

Just finished reading “We Need to Talk About Kevin” by Lionel Shriver. Very, very good book and raises a lot of questions about school shootings…..fiction, but unfortunately, could be fact.

They had a report on the news this evening talking about gun control. They were talking about Washington DC and the fact that handguns are banned in that town, (to legally own one at least) yet DC been ranked one of the highest in gun crime in the nation for many many years.
They also pointed out a Georgia town where they made it mandatory for all residents to own a firearm. Gun crimes (as well as crime in general) has dropped dramatically in this town.
A woman in DC is taking this issue to the Supreme Court to fight for her rights to carry a weapon. It’ll be interesting to see how her case turns out.

ISU/Alum #189, I think you are right on the money about the majority of the pro-weapons comments. The idea being proposed is that there should be no gun free areas because then, only the criminal will bring in the gun (as they don’t care about the law) and then said criminal will have their bloodbath as those who are obeying the law and not carrying a weapon won’t be able to defend themselves.

Whereas in an open and unrestricted environment, anyone might have a gun- so those who want to wreak havoc won’t necessarily be in control of the situation.

Apparently the appeal to plan a spectacular shooting isn’t so great, if you can’t be sure that you’re going to be the only one carrying a weapon. You may die an ignominious death instead of the blaze of glory you had envisioned, and be killed before you can fulfill your plans.

I am the Campus Leader for the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus of Idaho State University.
I just found this forum, though i was invited to it by one of the participants some time ago. i haven’t read every post, but many of them, and i just wanted to add my two bits.

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, http://www.concealedcampus.org, advocates the right of licensed individuals to carry concealed firearms on college campuses. we frequently are posed with many different arguments against concealed carry on campus, mostly based on emotion, not fact, but sometimes with reasonable fears involved. again, I’d like to give some input on the subject:

When it comes to the fear that those carrying legally on campus might just ’snap,’ well, look at the fact that contrary to popular myth, most psychiatric professionals agree that the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person simply ‘snapping’ and becoming violent is not supported by case evidence. A person’s downward spiral toward violence is usually accompanied by numerous warning signs.

i don’t want everyone on campus to be armed either, but, again according to statistics, only about 1 out of every 100 eligible people have a CWP, which means that only about 120 or so students, faculty and staff would be armed at any given time on the whole of ISU’s campus.

would allowing concealed carry prevent a campus shooting from happening? maybe, but not likely. while the SCCC doesn’t have an official position concerning the matter, i am personally in favor of putting other preventative measures in place. i am in favor of public safety and local police working together to make sure that response times to violent events are at a minimum, but at very best, it will take the police a matter of minutes to reach campus. the longest campus shooting was Virginia Tech, which lasted upward of ten minutes. most are much shorter than that, and are usually over by time the police arrive. in the case of Virginia Tech, Cho had the doors locked shut and the police stood outside the doors helplessly while they listened to the carnage inside the building.

Allowing concealed carry on campus does an important thing, it puts the defense of the people where it belongs: in the hands of the people. it is not the responsibility of the police to defend individuals, the supreme court has declared this on several occasion. police are reactive, in that they respond to crime, investigate it, and bring the perpetrators of said crime to justice.

I see two options: either ISU takes full responsibility of the protection of the students by closing campus completely to outsiders, having metal detectors and armed guards at every entrance, armed guards in every hallway and in every classroom, and by randomly and without warrant searching the person of students and faculty alike. or ISU takes places the responsibility of protection upon the students.

i am not suggesting that ISU does nothing to prevent crime on campus, but, according to ISU’s own training vidio, if a shooting were to happen on campus ISU is not prepared to stop it once it has begun. they have done, and continue to do great things to prevent a shooting, and things to do after a shooting, but they have no plan, aside from calling on the police, in case of a shooting.

is it possible that someone might get caught in the crossfire, sure. but, wouldn’t it be better if one or two were hurt (or, God forbid, killed) to prevent the systematic murder of mass numbers, like at Virginia Tech? i think the answer is clear. besides, what is worse than an execution style massacre?

To suggest that the increase of guns on campus would lead to an increase in violent crime is completely without foundation. Utah has been mentioned several times in this forum, and while they had never had a campus shooting prior to the passing of the law that requires that all Utah state funded schools allow concealed carry on campus, they have not had an INCREASE in violent crime on campus. sadly, Utah is the only state in the union (to my knowledge) that has made any such law, and is therefor the only state in the union that we can use as a case study for this particular topic.

i have frequently been told that guns on campus would distract from learning. concealed weapon. concealed is key. SCCC doesn’t have on official position on open carry, we only advocate for concealed carry: if it’s concealed, no one would know weather or not someone had a gun unless the fecal matter hit the rotating thermantidote, in which case, someone packing heat would be the last thing on someones mind.

A valid question is ‘how can the police tell the bad guys from the armed citizens?’ as i have previously mentioned, the shooting is usually well over before the police ever get there, but in the event that it’s not, police are well trained. they don’t just rampage in shooting anyone with a gun, they (quickly) assess the situation. if there are two individuals with a gun, and one is huddled with a bunch of innocents, the other shooting at the group, it’s easy to tell. if there are two people with a gun and one is shooting at the cops, the other is shooting at the would-be cop killer, it’s easy to tell. but, in the worst case scenario, and it is not easy to tell, the psychopathic shooter is the one who refuses to obey the officer’s demands to drop his/her weapon.

Now, stepping away from my position of Campus Leader for a moment; i agree that there are several other places to start: one may be making sure that the legally insane do not get their hands on weapons, but it is important to note that not all criminal shooters are mentally ill. all are sick, for sure, but some, if not most, are just evil. they aren’t severely depressed, or bi-polar, or schizophrenic, or otherwise mentally incapable of reasonable thought, they are evil, plain and simple. that is not to say that SOME criminals are not mentally ill and in need of treatment, but that most don’t fall into that category.

On a different note, it is offensive to me, because many of my loved ones fall into this category, that it might even be suggested that those with depression or another mental disorder don’t deserve the same rights as anyone else. it sickens me that they could be lowered to the menial placement of lesser-human because they have some disorder. most mentally ill people are no different than anyone else, excepting their disorder. i am not opposed to those who have been diagnosed as a danger to themselves and/or others from being barred the ownership of firearms, but to say that anyone who is on Prozac or Ritalin isn’t deserving of equal rights spits in the face of our great nation.

Just because he’s the leader of this “group”, doesn’t make him the authority on the issue. I have a number of friends that currently attend ISU and they’ve never heard of this group.
Even this gentleman notes that “allowing concealed weapons on campus would probably not prevent a shooting from occuring”. So why bother? Why not focus more on arming the faculty and/or hiring extra security to roam the halls.
He also believes that “having a concealed weapon on campus would not be a distraction towards students and their learning”. I beg to differ. In regards to carrying a concealed weapn…..with a woman, it could be kept in her purse. (ok….no distraction) With a guy where’s he going to put it so that’s it won’t be seen and therefor won’t be a “distraction”. Any holstered weapon is going to protrude through one’s clothing. (this isn’t the movies where the good guys stick their guns down the front of their pants, or even the back waistband and then pull their shirt over to conceal it) It’s going to be a distraction sticking out of somebody’s clothing. Another kid is going to see it and say “hey man, let me check out your gun”. It’s going to accidently discharge and then we’ve got a whole new problem.
Another odd comment that was made, was “making sure the legally insane do not get their hands on weapons”. Are you kidding me? For one, the “legally insane” more often than not, will not be attending your local college or university in the first place. You also note that most of these shooters aren’t severely depressed, bi-polar, schizophrenic, or whatnot. Do you have statistics to back this statement up? Because from what I’ve read from all these campus shootings over the years, are that these people WERE depressed or bi-polar. Most of them were loners that were “picked on” by other kids throughout the years. Most were “quiet kids that made good grades” and were otherwise “decent members of society”. Not “evil” as you put it. Sure they did an “evil thing”, but weren’t “evil people”.
It’s interesting that “many of your loved ones” (as you put it), fall into this category of being depressed, bi-polar or other mental disorder. It makes me wonder what kind of people you’re hanging out with.
Another issue I’m not in agreeance with is the statement you made about these people “snapping”. I would like to see your supposed “case studies” on this. You state that there are always “warning signs”. I have to disagree with you there. In the majority of these cases, there were NO warning signs. At least any “visible” warning signs. Hindsight is always 20/20.
I dont know….I have to say that the comments of poster JHarward sound an awful lot like Livefree’s. I’d like to know a little bit more about this “organization” of yours. How many “members” you have, how often do you meet, where and what time your meetings occur, etc etc. Like I noted earlier in the post, none of my friends that go to ISU have ever heard of this organization.
Please tell us a little more.

The “protective tool” ? That’s a good one questtoarm.
Keep up the good fight! LOL

Good to see you Howard. I agree there should be guns on college campuses. I also agree there needs to be some reponsibility of the schools administration to defend students and also defend thier constitutional rights. Some people state guns are way to dangerous to have on campuses and its a place for learning. The one thing they all have not learned yet is students are being killed by people not by guns. I do not think guns will be allowed on college campuses for defense until all students atleast 75% of the student body decide to stop attending until they allow students with concealed weapons to carry. ISU can not support operation cost with out the student. I personaly blame the students for allowing the campus to remove constitutional rights from students. Freedom is not free and freedom has its price when you stop fighting for her she stops working for you. I think the new case in Washington DC trying to determine if guns are a constitutional right or not will determin what the school can do to keep guns off campus. Students would be able to sue colleges around the country for violating thier rights. I see this being a big mess. What would this do to our colleges and how will this affect the future of education? Why do Campus administrators work so hard to keep the concealed weapons off campus?

Okay, like grandma sticking her nose in when the bickering gets too loud, I’ll ask, can we please not spend time attacking the person or their spelling, or their critical thinking skills, and instead discuss the issue of guns on campus?

As can be deduced, we get suspicious on this site when someone’s viewpoint (and sometimes the author, too) gets mercilessly beaten (in writing) and then someone else comes back on later with a similar agenda. Questions were raised, is this a different person, or is this a valid organization?

I’m not suspicious and could care less if this is live_free again, but I am interested in having answers to some of 007’s questions in #174. Please look beyond the snarkiness, he’s having to adjust to real life after having a dream vacation. I think that can make anyone a little cranky

Nah, none of us here would ever be snarky! We’re sweetness and light, the heighth of good manners. Mostly! ;-P

I have a coworker who went on a cruise, he was sorry to have to come home.

Are you glad to be back, really? I think it’s time for me to retire, because I’m looking forward to a permanent vacation.

sure blame me for everything. Take the easy way out.

Dude, get over yourself. Nobody is “attacking” you. All I said was JHarwards comments sounded an awful lot like yours. (which they do) There’s no “attack” going on there. So you two have the same views, big deal. Did that hurt your feelings?
It is funny how you haven’t been on for a month and now suddenly you appear today. Just kinda interesting that’s all.

All of your issue have been disputed, which I did already, so I won’t repeat myself. You have your opinion and I have mine so we’ll leave it at that.
Like I noted earlier, none of my friends that are ISU students have heard of your organization, so it obviously isn’t being discussed very openly on campus. May I ask what you plan to do once you have all 12 memebers signed up? What are your plans for this organization, other than the occasional protest?
Also, do you currently have any faculty currently behind you?
Thanks!

Howard some people on here just like to argue and do not care if your correct or not. They just like to argue and will use anything personal you post on here. I wouldnt give them any fuel just facts. I am in total agreement with you. I am also an ISU student and have no idea who 007’s freinds are but everyone on campus knows who sccc is. I support the group all the way. I also have a CWP and support carrying on campus.

I’ve also got about a half a dozen friends that currently attend ISU at both the IF & Poky campus’ and after speaking with most of them tonight, none of them were aware of this organization on ISU’s campus. So obvious not everybody knows about it. And what livefree is suggesting that since Harwards opinion differs from 007’s, that Harward is “correct” and 007 isn’t. That’s interesting. Seems to me they both have “their own opinions”, which just so happens to be different from the other ones. When in fact….nobody is “right or wrong” here.

I don’t see the failure of ISU to allow concealed weapons on campus as being a legal liability if a shooting does occur. There’s no proof (it’s only speculation) that allowing concealed weapons would deter someone from bringing a weapon and opening fire.

Even a person who normally carries a concealed weapon could be shot before they could get their weapon out and use it, and there’s no guarantee that if a shooting started up that there would be armed defenders anywhere near to help take the guy out.

So while I’m strongly leaning toward allowing concealed weapons on campus, I do not think that disallowing them gives ISU a legal problem in the event that a shooting occurs.

J Harward, I submit that even in the event that you are allowed to carry concealed weapons on campus, if a shooting occurs, the school will still be held liable.

I can’t imagine a defense statement being: “Your honor, we allow students to carry their own weapons on campus to defend themselves, and if they didn’t do a good job of it and got shot, well, they had their chance. It wasn’t our responsibility anymore.”

I just don’t see the carry/not carry policy as a change in liability for the school (although it might crop up if a legal carrier opens fire on other students).

Wow. CNN.com is running this story as a headline this morning…

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/14/campus.guns/index.html

I disagree with an armed guard in every classroom. That won’t stop the shooting, as was pointed out before when the suggestion was made to arm the teacher, a known carrier will be the first target.

Which is why they should allow concealed carry because you can’t ever be sure who’s packing…

Does ISU have a policy against mace? That would be ridiculous because I’m sure many young ladies carry a can of mace for protection.

Remote-controlled turrets in class? Yeeeah that would create a nice comfortable learning environment. It’s one thing to know some people may or may not be carrying concealed weapons, quite another to take notes with a turret pointed at your back.

Why not? I was only being creative lol. Atleast someone is thinking of a way to protect us from a shooter. They wont let us take responsibility for our own lives. What would you do? Lets hear some more creative ways to protect students that doesnt involve a gun. I wish I could pack my 45 Glok that would sure as heck stop a would be shooter from killing me but ISU will not allow that. ISU is all about money not about safety. They feel it is cheaper to ban guns and leave a possible easy shooting to happen then pay the extra $$$ for insurance for allowing guns on campus. (this is based on my own interpitation on the happenings at ISU and policies this is not and has not been said by any ISU official) this is only my opinion.

I think the real reason is they just do not give a darn. I think the state should force the school to pay for an armed security officer for every class room if they won’t allow students to pack. I am transfering to Utah state they allow CWP holders to pack. I would feel much safer there.

To quest to arm:

I will feel much safer here with you and your concealed gun in Utah too.

cool guy, are you threatening me? If you don’t like what I have to say just say so but don’t make veiled threats. In my opinion people with attitudes like yours are the ones who shouldn’t have guns.

Thanks Joe

Weird tidbit: this week, 10 years ago, I believe, Kip Kinkel took a gun to Thurston (Springfield, Oregon) High and shot and killed two students and wounded several others. He had already killed his parents at their home the night before.

Laurie Dann went on a rampage in a Winnetka, Illinois elementary school 20 years ago this week.

And Diane Downs, subject of the book/movie “Small Sacrifices”, shot her three children 25 years ago this week in Eugene, Oregon.

I bet there are more out there. Why this week? This time of year?

Would “concealed weapons” have helped anyone in these or any other situations where someone just randomly opens fire on a group of innocent people?

Ok cool guy, whatever. Let’s try to have some adult discussion here and not junior high trash talk, shall we?

Anyway, babs - to your question on times of year for explosive situations like shootings and suicides, I was told by a former psych. college professor a lot of people seem to think the dead of winter would be the top time of year for depressions and triggering events like this, but he said it is actually the change of seasons that seems to trigger a lot of people. Especially the winter moving into warmer spring/summer-like weather over time. I’ve always wondered if that’s why so many horrific events happen in the spring. I don’t have data to back it up, but its’ something that’s always stuck with me.

I missed whatever conflict happenned in the preceding posts, but re “123, I agree with you 100%; anyone misguided enough to think carrying a concealed weapon on campus is a good idea probably should not be in college at all; but I do feel safer knowing he is further away from me and mine ”

The people who don’t belong in college are the ones who would stifle debate on this issue in lieu of their idea of the “right” side. Ever looked at rates of rape on campuses? Ever been to a big college? The above comment was very offensive to me.

nice Bundy I totaly agree thanks for enlightening some of them.

I still don’t see how a concealed weapon on campus can in any way “deter” school shootings.

First, the people doing the shootings are not calmly planning such acts and thus prone to think, “Oh, wait a minute, someone in my designated classroom MAY be armed. . . I’d better scrap this plan!”

Second, most of the shootings which have occured in the last ten years or so involved a heavily armed individual or sometimes two, who entered a room and immediately began shooting.

To suggest that an armed student would have any effect on the outcome of such a scenario would presuppose that said student would happen to be in the room where the shooting occurs and that the armed student would have some prior knowledge or warning in order to remove their weapon and react.

I guess I just don’t see the efficacy. Perhaps metal detectors at every classroom to ensure that NO ONE is armed, would be a better plan than allowing everyone to bring a gun to school and hope they are in the right place at the right time to . . . ? kill or disable the shooter after he or she has only killed a few people???

Just IMHO.

Babs, if you look at studies of people who are doing the shootings, they do seem to plan calmly ahead.

They also don’t seem to be planning the preservation of their own lives, so that would seem a non-issue.

If I or any of my loved ones is ever in a school shooting (or any shooting, for that matter) I sure would rather that concealed weapon permit holders were present AND ARMED.

Killing or disabling the shooter after they have only killed a few people sounds like a great idea, I have to agree.