Civic Lecture: Islam, A View from the West
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Monday evening I attended a unique lecture at the Idaho Falls Civic Auditorium called Islam, a View from the West. It was given by Dr. Michael Zirinsky (a Boise State University history professor). As Idaho Falls councilwoman Ida Hardcastle did at the lecture beginning, I also want to thank the event sponsors for helping make it happen. Thanks to the Idaho Humanities Council, the Post Register, the INL, and Idaho State University, and those are the ones listed on the program so if there are more please let us know in the comments. It is great they helped our community with enabling this lecture, and I hope they continue with more lectures because I think they are valuable. That this lecture was free to the public made it all the more inclusive.
Dr. Zirinsky put me off at first by saying he was “leery” of discussing this subject, which made me wonder why he was speaking about it? Dr. Zirinsky explained he was clearly a Western-oriented person who happened to attend school for awhile in Tehran and has studied Islam via Western academics. He made it clear that Islam is an extremely rich tapestry not easily defined by a few statements. Zirinsky seemed to want us to not merely take his words and descriptions as the final word on Islam, but that he was offering a sliver of a glimpse into a complicated world.
Dr. Zirinsky pointed out that Islam absorbed much of the advanced Greek, Roman, and Byzantium civilizations, and much of our advancements have come by way of the Muslim world. Most countries taken over by Islam were given two choices: convert to Islam or face the sword. Some of the more fiercely independent nations (such as those in north Africa) were given a third option: protection. These countries were allowed to worship how they wanted, and Muslim rulers would take over running the country (along the way reducing taxes). I think I wandered off Zirinsky’s thought trail about this time, it seemed he was saying this was done to avoid revolts and slowly convert the country to Islam over many centuries? Zirinsky pointed out that we view Islam being intolerant of other religions, however many Arab-Muslim countries tend to have sizable non-Islamic populations even after a thousand years of Muslim rule.
Dr. Zirinsky made a point that “haji” is a term of respect for someone who has traveled to Mecca. He found it disturbing that American military soldiers refer to all Muslim terrorist suspects as “Hajis”. This made me wonder how much this term mis-application by our soldiers hurts our relations with the middle eastern world?
Dr. Zirinsky also pointed out that “jihad” is a term meaning “struggle”, not “holy war” as some western media outlets have reported. Muslims have two main jihads, the greater and the lesser. The greater struggle is to take care of ourselves, our families, homes, neighborhoods, cities, and to take care of our bills. It is the struggle of taking care of your own footprint in the world. The lesser struggle is against other nations and religions, the struggle that leads to war. According to Zirinsky, the prophet Mohammad advocated resolving the greater struggles first before taking on the lesser struggles. I think most of us agree that we do not think the suicide bombers in Iraq have taken care of their greater struggles before engaging in the lesser.
Dr. Zirinsky pointed out that Muslims are developing into a more literate population in the past century, and individuals are interpreting the complex Koran themselves. They are ignoring the advice of their priests who have studied and followed Islam for centuries. Perhaps this is the reason Islam is suddenly experiencing extremist factions?
Zirinsky pointed out that Islam does allow up to four wives, but it is rarely practiced and most Muslim marriages are monogamous. The rule was devised to reign in powerful men, and has something to do with the impossible challenge of keeping four wives perfectly happy in balance. Zirinsky made a quote that elicited laughter: “never say you know someone until you have divided an estate with them.”
Dr. Zirinsky made an interesting point about Muslim diet, how they do not eat pig skin, and offer a prayer of thanks when they slaughter a lamb. The prayer is a promise that the animal is only killed for sustaining human life and will not be wasted. This made me think about western nations and how we waste food.
The biggest point to the evening in the minds of everyone was why are western nations having such difficulty getting along with Islamic nations? Dr. Zirinsky said that we identify each other historically as evil, that our many wars have bred more hostility, that Islam has a sense of superiority over Christianity, and that our western imperialism has generated fear among Muslims.
During the question and answer session, someone asked about things they had found while studying the Koran on their own. Dr. Zirinsky reminded us of Islam’s complexity, and said many Americans are digging through the Koran to find “evidence” that proves Islam is fundamentally evil. He said these efforts are usually correct in their citations, but usually incorrect in context of meaning.
Ida Hardcastle was standing on stage during the Q&A session, which I thought was distracting until it became clear why she was needed. She clearly communicated to us who the last questioner would be, a young man who made a very articulate question. As Zirinsky began his answer, an old kook with Internet printouts in hand jumped to the microphone and said, “My question is similar to his so hopefully you can answer both of ours at the same time…” and went off for several minutes about the evils of Islam that he had been reading (probably online). The old kook even said at one point, “…I also understand a U.S. Congressman refused to …” something to do with his oath of office, and someone in the audience yelled “That’s not true!” The old kook quickly admitted he was wrong about that point, which kind of deflated his entire rant. Ida Hardcastle finally cut the kook off by saying, “Sir, can we let him answer?” The audience applauded, and I was thankful that Ida had stayed up on stage.
The lecture was interesting to me because we do not usually get these kinds of discussions in our community. I think that last questioner confirmed that we still have a ways to go in our understanding of the Muslim world. Given Islam’s huge worldwide footprint, our conflicts with Muslim nations, and that Muslims live in our area, I think we should try to engage and learn about Islam more.
They said a few times during the lecture that they wanted to start a discussion about Islam, however the only mechanism they offered was to email the Idaho Humanities Council. Hence, this article is dedicated to that discussion, and hopefully will prove fruitful to our understanding.
What do you think?
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Comments
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0 I agree with IdahoNative. We all need to accept that people and other cultures are different and let them live their lives the way they want to. (if this would happen, it’d be a much more peaceful world!) However, OUR country needs to stop pushing our democracy and our values on other cultures and just live and let live. With THAT being said, many of these extreme Muslims believe that their religion is the only one that should be followed and insist that the world follow it, otherwise we’re all evil. However, the same can be said with the Mormons, the Catholics and the Jews. (just to name a few) Each of these religions also believe that THEIRS is the only way to the so called “Kingdom of Heaven” and everyone else is doomed to eternal hell.
The thing is, (at least in this day and age) is that no other religion, other than the Muslim extremists, are the ones waging war on Western civilazation because we believe differently than they do.
I think Joe opened up a can of worms on this one, being that he doesn’t like religious discussions on this site. However, I think it’s impossible NOT to discuss religion on this particular post.
Perhaps you’re bending your own rules on this one in the hopes of a civilized and healthy debate? Hopefully this is the case, as i see a great potenial with the discussion of this topic.
I would have liked to see this debate, thanks for sharing the highlights with us Joe.
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0 0 Sorry, I meant to write “I would have liked to see this lecture” at the end there. Joe, could you fix that last sentence for me?
(still getting used to not having the ability to go back and edit our posts)
Thanks!
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0 0 I thought…we weren’t supposed to talk about…religion.
How long before this topic gets shut down?
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0 0 All it will take is for someone to mention the overwhelming similarities between the Islam prophet Muhammad to LDS prophet Joseph Smith, their visions, the great apostasy, etc…and all heck will break loose.
Oops.
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0 0 It’s not going to get shut down because the site owner is the one who originally posted it.
But with needless comments that have nothing to do with the actual topic, (like Neverminds) then it could and probably will happen.
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0 0 “We all need to accept that people and other cultures are different and let them live their lives the way they want to. (if this would happen, it’d be a much more peaceful world!) However, OUR country needs to stop pushing our democracy and our values on other cultures and just live and let live.”
The above statement is exactly the problem in the country right now. Many Americans and Europeans are not fully appreciating the dangers of MAINSTREAM Islam. Yes,I said mainstream. Mainstream Islam condones honor killings of women that are raped through no fault of their own. Saudi TV had a guy on the air telling men how to beat their wives into submission just last week. Many women aren’t allowed to vote or participate in government.
Through the times of the crusades and other wars fought in the name of Islam, people have been killed over not converting to Islam. The religious intolerance is plain for everyone to see. However, we get the Rosie Odonell types that proclaim radical Christianity is more of a threat today than radical Islam and people buy into that idea.
Americans, like many Eurpoeans, are failing to stand up for our Western values and beliefs. Somehow, it has gotten to the point that it is politically incorrect to challenge Islam for fear of being called a racist or imperalist. And so, we sit back silently to avoid confrontation on matters that need to be challenged.
I would ask my fellow Americans to look back at history and understand the dangers present then and now. Winston Churchill presented arguments against the spread of Islam because of it’s intolerance and practices as threats to Western Civilization and Government. Churchill saw it then and not much has changed since his observations in the early 20th century.
The question really comes down to what are we willing to do to preserve our way of life and our institutions? Will we sit back and allow Islam to go unchallenged so as to not “offend” anyone? Or will we take a stand based on principles that are the heart of our country and Western Civilization in general?
What would have happened if we had just let Nazi Germany live and let live? How about the Communists in Korea? Or perhaps more recently examples if we had just let the North Koreans live and let live? How about a more closer to home example–what if we had just let Richard Butler and the White Aryan Congress just live and let live? What would that say about us as Americans? We have gone on a very weak defense of our country, our values and ourselves as Americans. It is naive to suggest that a live and let live principle would be adhered to by Islamists.
We all need to appreciate the fact that Islamic factions from Saudi Arabian Wahabists to Iranian Shiites believe they are involved in a world wide struggle for power and control–a one world califate (government). Put in these terms, this is and will always be unacceptable to Americans. It is high time that we realize the dangers that Islam presents to the United States and the rest of the Western World.
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0 0 Egads ya’ll may be correct on that issue. When I wrote this, I left the religious-specific parts out that Zirinsky mentioned. Keep in mind that Zirinsky hardly mentioned any though, because he approached it from a historical and societal perspective.
I hope we can discuss this issue in terms of society and history, rather than religious differences. Can we agree there are differences between the religions that cause their own conflict, and leave it at that?
I like Mike’s comment and I wonder if this is an unbridgeable division between our cultures? We seem to get along well with the Hindu culture of India, so why not the Islamic cultures?
Is Islam really bent against the West, or is it amateur interpretations of the past few decades?
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0 0 Check out this link for some more reasons that Islamic Law allows for little room for self-expression and freedom that we all take for granted. This is a current story out of Iran right now.
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0 0 I think that we could have a very civilized discussion on this topic without name calling and finger pointing. The main theme here should be the differences in the Islamic culture and our Western culture from a historical and societal (is that a word?) view. Since Islamic religion is such a major factor in their culture, I think things will be brought out regarding their views. However, I see no reason why Western religions need to be brought into the discussion except in reference to a point. No specific religion needs to be mentioned. To even begin understanding the Islamic culture, I think we need to understand a little of their religion.
I am still hopeful (probably being very naive) that someday we can achieve peace and live in harmony. I don’t encroach on my next door neighbor’s view (which is at the extreme end of the pole from mine), and they don’t on mine. But guess what? We get along and are friends. Why can’t this be achieved world wide? I know I am naive and want to live in Utopia, but I can dream can’t I?
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0 0 As far as political differences in this country, Republicans and Democrats don’t go around killing each other if they disagree. We also don’t see it as acceptable that women, no matter if Dem or Rep, can get held back–beaten up–or worse for expressing their political points of view or asserting their right to be involved politically.
In the Islamic world, this type of behavior does occur. It is also occurring in Islamic sects in this country. We cannot and should not turn a blind eye to the reality that we are faced with.
These type of behaviors are not tolerated in our society across the political spectrum. Make no doubt about it, this is a power struggle. Islamic society is rooted in religious teachings and obligations presented as fatwas (or commandments). You can discuss their society from historical perspectives but religion will always be the driving force behind their society and structure. It would seem to me that an effective way of illustrating the differences in Western and Islamic culture is to highlight not only the societal boundaries and mores, but the religious teachings and commandments if you will.
Idaho Native’s comment about how many people really know the bible is correct. Many people don’t know the Bible and many Americans have been afraid and/or discouraged from learning or discussing religious beliefs. As a result we have a power vacuum going on. Will we blindly accept Islamic practices that lead to subjugation of women and others that don’t agree with them, i.e. “Join Islam or die by the Sword”….or will be acknowledge and defend our Western values and concepts and not give in to those that would surely do us harm and end our way of life permanently?
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0 0 Idaho Native:
Take a look at a couple of these articles. This will give you some perspective about the rise of fundamentalism in the Iranian Shiite Government and why we need to be challenging these guys and not trying to live side by side them. Also, google the Hojjatieh society. This society is basically believing in creating chaos to hasten the return of the 12th Imam (prophet) to dominate a one-world Islamic califate (government).
Ahmenijhad is believed to be a member of the Hojjatieh Society. This group was so radical that Iranian Leader Khomeni banned them in 1980 because they wanted to go even farther than he was prepared to go in advancing the Iranian and Islamic revolution in the region.
These folks can’t be reasoned with and have their beliefs firmly rooted in spirtual and religious teachings. This is yet another wake up call to read and listen to what they are openly saying. They are intent on an Islamic califate creating chaos and using violence and terror to achieve their means because their religion teaches them this is acceptable practice.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3324216,00.html
http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/guest/05/vonheyking/twelfthimam.html
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0 0 So you’re saying you think Islam is fundamentally evil? The way they treat women is disturbing, but is that the widest practice or just the extremists we hear about?
Dr. Zirinsky made a point to the effect of considering Islamic extremist groups to represent all of the Islamic world is like considering Nazis to represent all of the western world.
Is this just apologizing for a fundamentally evil culture, or are we biased by the few negatives?
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0 0 I personally believe in neither christianity or Islam so I’ve got no bias for one or the other. So I’m not going to discuss which religion has the right belief system since I don’t believe in either.
But I can’t help but see that Islamic governments today are basically what christian governments were about 400 years ago and before. That is both are / were barbaric, cruel, repressive, discriminatory, and violent. For every act of barbarism Islam does today you can cite an equally attrocious thing done in the name of christianity back in the middle ages and before. Repression of women - check, discrimination against minorities - check, enslavement of certain people - check, wars fought in its name - check, civilizations overthrown - check. You name it, it was done in the name of christianity in the middle ages and before.
The only, and I say ONLY, reason christianity grew out of this is because people fled to the United States to escape christian oppression by the governments in Europe and the US was founded on freedom of religion and is very strict on keeping government out of it. This basically civilized christianity and other christian countries soon followed the US’s lead. Today’s christianity is nothing like that of 400 years and before. Islam could follow the same path if their governments become more democratic.
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0 0 Excellent post Guest! Thank you for your views! I had written a rebuttal to Mikes post 7, but somehow it got deleted and I just haven’t had the time to re-write it.
I have one question for Mike. Do you actually believe that our government is any better than a Hitler or Hussein? Do you actually believe that our goverment hasn’t killed it’s own people by the hundreds of thousands over the years? Let alone millions of foreigners in other countries. Our government is just as barbaric as any dictator out there. The ONLY difference is, it’s not one person pulling all the strings, but a group of people. Open your eyes to what has gone on and what is going on with our country. Our government is no better than the tyrants they’ve erraticated over the years.
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0 0 So, what you are saying is that America is on the same plane as Joesph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh and other repressive killers? While you may hate America and all it stands for I find your assertion that America is no better than Hitler or Hussein as emlematic of far left wing partisans that hate the United States.
Your posts are usually well received. However, this one is very different. This is a slap in the face to the “groups of people” that founded this country and have perpetuated this country for 200 plus years. I suspect you adhere to the belief that America caused 9/11.
This thread is about how the US should view Islam and what we should do to challenge it’s anti-democratic and authoritarian methods of control and coercion. You can attack the US all you want but know this…if we fail to take appropriate action against Islamic terrorists and Islamic governments that support them our country (whether you like it or not) will fall under attack.
CR67, you would be in the same position as the rest of us: either convert or be killed. These monsters will not spare the far left…in fact, the far left would probably be the first to go. As you might note, Islamic societies have no tolerance for homosexuals, drug users, criminals, or other persons that exercise moral relativism.
As for the post in #14, I found alot of your comments to be on target. Early Christianity was brutal and the Bible (like the Quran now) was misinterpreted by supposed reformers that killed large numbers of people. This history is valuable to us from the perspective that people kill in the name of religion. America needs to know that this is has happened in the past and is on-going at the present. The same is true for Islam with an important caveat that political purposes are also being served by Bin Laden, Wahabists in Saudi Arabia, Shiite Militias and radical groups and Sunni/Bathists that are involved in various insurgencies. What they all seem to share is the use of terror to achieve political means and power cloaking their actions in the Quran. What is astounding is that mainstream Islam is not really attacking these factions and their silence says much to us about their agenda(s) as well that does not bode well for United States security.
I do have one problem with what you wrote, “Today’s christianity is nothing like that of 400 years and before. Islam could follow the same path if their governments become more democratic.” The first part of your statement appears to have basis in fact; however, the second sentence implies that democracy will subvert the current problems Islam exhibits to the security of the United States. I would argue that democracy will not fundamentally change Islamic institutions to such as degree as to change their move towards more tolerance and respect for minorities, women, and others different from them.
For instance, look at the democratically elected government of Hamas in Palestine….no big change there: they are still terrorists that have been elected by a people at war with Israel. Additionally, look at Pakistan. Not much good going on there either with martial law imposed. We even have Muslim Chechen rebels in Russia kidnapping 300 school children and killing over 200 of them–their main grievance is political vs. religious freedom. Saudi Arabia is a tyrannical police state that tries to keep us happy with oil while funding Wahabists and other nuts that flew planes into the World Trade Center. Their hold on power is also more political than religious. They try to have it both ways to keep power but it is not some puritanical belief in Islamic law….it is about power and wealth for the Kingdom. This is why they hate Iran so much….because the Shiite government is fundamentalist and hellbent on creating chaos that could lead to Armageddon.
So, ultimately, what I have heard so far is that America is as bad as the rest of them…..even if we conceded that, which I do not….this will not change what we need to do to protect this “awful” country of ours. We need to take the Islamic threat seriously or we will find ourselves dead and buried or forced to pray in a Mosque and living under ‘barbaric’ conditions that some people seem to think America created. It is easy to point fingers at our country…..why is it harder to point fingers in the direction of persons that have committed to kill us?
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0 0 Please don’t put words in my mouth. I certainly do not hate America, quite the opposite! I love America and what it stands for and I’m thankful that I was born and raised here. What I hate is our government and the way they manipulate the American people and the world. Sure, our government isn’t as brutal as other dictators in the ways they operate and control it’s people, but in much more subtle ways.
And at times I’m embarrassed to be an American when I see our President and our government and military officials constantly telling lies, misleading the public. It’s embarrassing to me when our President gets up to speak in front of the world and sounds like a complete fool in front of the rest of the world. Sure he’s just a puppet for our corrupt government, but it’s embarrassing and I for one and not ashamed to say it.
I’m sick and tired of our government thinking we have to solve the worlds problems, when we can’t even take care of our own people and our own countrys security!
It’s interesting that you brought up 9-11. I in no way believe it was America’s fault, but I DO believe it could have been prevented and that we were asleep at the wheel. Especially with all the intelligence that was available to us. I don’t consider 9-11 an attack on our soil per se’. We’ve never had a country attack our nation and we certainly should not be afraid of a country like Iraq or Iran attacking us. Although our government would have us believe differently. Sure, 0-11 was a cowardly terrorist attack brought about by a group of extremists. BUT, it could have been prevented if we would control our borders the way we’re supposed to. To this day there numerous easy access points into this country and what is our government doing about it? NOTHING! The problem is, our government never learns from it’s mistakes and that’s embarrassing to me as an American. We continue to loose our freedoms each and every day and people like you think that’s ok. When you and I both know that none of it is making us any more secure as a country than we were before 9-11. Instead, we wage war on an a whole country just so we can flex our military muscle to the world. Yet after all these years, we’ve made absolutely no progress over there, and no progress over here. We need to mind our own business and take care of our own country. Let the Iraqi people stand up for themselves and ban together to change their own country. Just as Hamas did. Many people consider them terrorists, but they were a group of individuals that got fed up with the way their government was run and the way other countries were telling them what to do, and they took charge. I’m in no way condoning terrorism, but they took matters into their own hands and made changes because they weren’t happy with the way their leadership was ruining their country. And in the end, this group was elected by the people. That’s gotta say something.
I certainly don’t condone the killing of innocent women and children like many of these dictators have done, but once again its not the Americas job to police the world. You think OUR government hasn’t killed innocent women and children? It’s been happening for years, right under your nose in broad daylight! In this invasion alone, our government has killed close to a million innocent civilians, women and children included. And you sir have the nerve to support this! NOT ME! There are a dozen other ways to go about keeping our country safe, and occupying another country and killing innocent civilians is not one of them!
Our government is in bed with so many of these terrorists groups and organizations it’s not even funny, yet they want the American public to believe that we’re fighting “a war on terror”. It’s BS and you know it. Or perhaps you choose not to accept it.
The only way “we the people” are ever going to feel safe again, is to start fixing the problems in our own backyard. Period.
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0 0 I think you make alot of good points in your response. I understand that you have a view that 9/11 could have been prevented. I agree with your assessment on that point. However, where does that leave us? We can agree all day long that 9/11 could have been prevented. What we are faced with now is a concern over more terror attacks.
I would differ with you on several points you made, “I don’t consider 9-11 an attack on our soil per se’. We’ve never had a country attack our nation and we certainly should not be afraid of a country like Iraq or Iran attacking us.” Over 3,000 Americans lost their lives on 9/11 in New York. That attack was on US soil and took down a center piece of American financial might. I also disagree with your assessment that we shouldn’t worry about countries like Iran. We do need to worry about what they are doing not only in the Middle East, but what they can bring to our shores in the form of sponsored terror attacks as well as their long range missles that just last month were announced as being in production.
While you may not think it is America’s job to “police the world” as you put it, the real issues are American interests overseas of keeping oil flowing and natural resources coming in. To ignore the reality of what is truly at stake is absolutely incorrect. You may care about morality of people getting killed but if our oil supply was cut off there would be a whole lot more people getting killed-including Americans here at home. Can you imagine the chaos this would create for the United States and the World economies? It is shuddering to comprehend such as state of affairs. So, yes, I do have the nerve to support American interventionism to protect our interests overseas. Until we become independent of middle east oil we are tied to the region like it or not.
You noted at the end of your article that there are a dozen other ways of keeping America safe. I would truly be interested in hearing how to do that…yes, I know toughening border security is the top one mentioned. But how do we, or should we, combat Islam in our midst? Do we just ignore it like we ignored Zacharias Moussaoui? Do we ignore it like we ignored Bin Laden’s fatwas that he intended to destory America and kill innocent women and children. My fear is that we do not have the appropriate level of fear of what these nuts plan to do to all of us. America bashing aside please, how would you handle the Islamic threat?
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0 0 You are exactly right….we (America) needs to become indenpendent of Middle East Oil!! If it were suddenly cut off tomorrow, America would survive. There are plenty of other countries, including our own, to feed our need for oil. The problem is, our government and big american oil/gas companies are greedy and want to get their hands on as much oil as they can while they can. If our Middle Eastern supply of oil was cut off tomorrow, it would force America to work towards alternative fuels. GM already had an electric car on the market back in the 80’s, but they squashed the whole program for no reason whatsoever, other than greed. There ARE alternatives to this oil addiction, and until we as Americans wake up and DEMAND this change to take place, instead of just talking about it, millions more innocent lives will be lost!
I completely dissagree with your next to last sentence. You state that “we do not have the appropriate level of fear of what these nuts plan to do to all of us.” You are wrong sir. This is the problem with America today. Our government with it’s fear mongers have been drilling into the American publics skulls for the past century to be afraid of EVERYTHING! There is TOO MUCH fear being spread right now. I mean c’mon, there are warning label on EVERYTHING. You can’t buy a cup of coffee these days without finding a “caution, contents are hot” label on it. Give me a break! I need the government to tell me my coffee is hot?? Give me a freaking break! We’re not idiots Mike, yet our government has made the American public so afraid to step outside their homes it’s not even funny! They’ve made us afraid of our own shadow! And they’ve drilled it into our heads for the past century that what’s best for Americans is to consume and consume and consume and stay locked up in our homes with deadbolts and security systems. No Mike, we as a country have gone overboard a long time ago with the level of fear that our government has instilled into us.
YOU yourself are supporting fear mongering by making the statement that our world would turn chaotic if our supply of oil from the Middle East was cut off. That’s simply not true. We’re alot stronger and alot more resiliant than that Mike. We’d get along just fine and we’d be forced to find alternative means. Personally I think that would be the best thing for the world if that were to happen. Who cares about Chevron’s record Billion dollar profits each year for the past 2 decades? Certainly not me! The problem is, it’s going to take a drastic change like losing our supply of oil, for a change to alternative means to actually take place. And I will welcome that day with open arms! The technology is already available, but because of the greed of big business, big oil and our government, we probably won’t see this change in our lifetime. Which is sad. Changes need to take place and they need to take place within OUR country, not others.
Who cares about Islam? I certainly don’t. Let them worship whatever and whoever they like, as long as their not bothering me. The only reason they ARE bothering us now, is because we won’t leave them alone. We want control of their oil and we want to push our ways of life onto them. This is all it boils down to. You’d be pretty pissed too if somebody came into your house or into your country and told you to live a certain way, all the while taking your livelyhood right out from underneath you! (ie:oil)
Like Joe stated earlier, the “threat” is about the extremists, and is not the norm. You claim the Koran instills bad teachings, well the same could be said about certain parts of the Bible or the Book of Mormon or any other religious teachings.
We’re condeming a whole society on the actions of a few extremists.
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0 0 While we agree on the need for energy independence I think it is important to note that it is not so much the “greedy American oil companies” wanting to get their hands on middle eastern oil….The American People are the ones making demands on that oil. I find it interesting (and sad) that you take efforts to slam America, slam big business, and slam people for wanting to protect themselves from terror attacks.
Your basic premise is that the American government is to blame for all this, “We’re not idiots Mike, yet our government has made the American public so afraid to step outside their homes it’s not even funny! They’ve made us afraid of our own shadow! And they’ve drilled it into our heads for the past century that what’s best for Americans is to consume and consume and consume and stay locked up in our homes with deadbolts and security systems. No Mike, we as a country have gone overboard a long time ago with the level of fear that our government has instilled into us.”
I find it amazing that you want to blame the American government for forcing Americans to consume. You also want to blame the government for creating fear of terror attacks. Excuse me but the American government did not create 9/11, nor did it take down the Twin Towers to create an atmosphere of fear.
I also found your willingness to have oil supplies cut off in the Gulf equally appalling, “We’d get along just fine and we’d be forced to find alternative means. Personally I think that would be the best thing for the world if that were to happen. Who cares about Chevron’s record Billion dollar profits each year for the past 2 decades? Certainly not me! The problem is, it’s going to take a drastic change like losing our supply of oil, for a change to alternative means to actually take place. And I will welcome that day with open arms! ”
1) This would not be the best thing for the world economy. Implementing available technologies would take time, money, and energy!! This is like cutting off the head to save the patient.
2) Who cares about Chevron’s profits? Perhaps you should understand that the Stock Market would tank because of the ripple effect this would have on manufacturing sectors (which require oil), tourism (which requires oil for refinement of gas). The list goes on. Remember what America was like when the stock market crashed in the Great Depression? Jobs were lost, poverty increased, and it was a rough time for America. While you seem to hate big business for making a buck, this country needs to support business (big and small) that drives our economy and our way of life.
3) Maybe you live in a cave, but the rest of us don’t and require energy supplies to heat our homes, fuel our vehicles to get to work, shop, and play! It is naive to suggest that electric car technology can liberate us tommorrow from oil.
Thank you for answering the question about Islam….it is very obvious with your answer, “Who cares about Islam? I certainly don’t. Let them worship whatever and whoever they like, as long as their not bothering me. The only reason they ARE bothering us now, is because we won’t leave them alone. We want control of their oil and we want to push our ways of life onto them. This is all it boils down to.” Your solution seems to be like an ostrich and bury our head in the sand.
However,Islamic factions are bothering us. They are bothering the Europeans. They are threatening to annihilate Western civilzation. Their worldview started long before oil was extracted from the Middle East.
It is about power and control on both sides. I know you are shamed by America trying to instill values in other cultures but seriously look at the repression they practice towards minorities, gays, women, etc.. they are stoning people for dressing different, they commit honor killings of their own family members. I think most Americans find these practices abhorent. America did not stand by and let Hitler kill Jews and subjugate Europe….we instilled our world view on Europe and Germany. What a terrible decision that was. If I view your mindset correctly, we should have just let them be unless the Germans came across the Atlantic to invade us. Can you imagine what effects that would have had?
If we boil down your response it is simply:
1) American government is to blame for Islamic fanatics trying to kill us.
2) American corporations are also to blame for Islamic fanatics trying to kill us.
3) New technologies will save us from certain peril and help us avoid the need for oil.
4) American government is simply fear mongering all of us to give up our rights to fight Islam.
5) We should not worry about Islam because once we leave the middle east they won’t try to attack us.
I keep coming back to this point: Why is it so easy for CR67 to blame America first and not the real villans in this whole scenario? Why? Because it is easier to attack your own country rather than understand the complexities at work here and the fact that Islamic fanatics intend to kill us. It is easier to blame George Bush than look at your own patterns of consumption that lead us to have to defend shoddy regimes that give us oil. It is easier to slam Chevron than look at our own patterns of investment in the stock market. It is plain hypocrisy. We want a nice standard of living. We also want to promote freedom at home and no where else. We can’t have it both ways. It would seem that a small fringe want to lambaste America and her corporations when in fact the vast majority of Americans want our interests protected from harm. I make no bones about it: I am a supporter of the American way of life. If you don’t like how we are operating then you had better get rid of your computer (it uses energy which takes oil) and go live in the cave wearing fig leaves or something. I find it reprehensible that you decry the American way of life that is provided by our government and businesses—yet, you are all too willing to participate in it’s riches and benefit from it. This slam America first mentality is absolutely what we do not need right now. We need to implement strategies to slam the terrorists and protect our country and our children from harm.
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0 0 I’m going to take a break here and let someone else give their views on this topic, since you can’t stop putting words into my mouth. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
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0 0 Whaddya do? Some people just have the answer to everything.
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0 0 Ahh 007, I am glad to see that you are back in the business. I was hoping you would join the discussion. Is that the best you’ve got?
BTW—I liked your post in the chat box this afternoon in relation to the Islam article Joe wrote:
“amazing isn’t it? but then again thats why we’re the laughing stock of the world. it’s well known that Americans can’t think for themselves. We’re known for “getting by” with the least amount of work and effort possible. not all of us of course, but the “majority”.”
So, what do you think 007…are Americans jsut plain dumb about Islam….plain scared….or plain paralyzed to do anything. What’s your take?
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0 0 I don’t pretend to be an expert on Islam/Muslim countries. I do believe the view we get of these topics from our national media is skewed towards the ragged beard burkha enforcer type.
I’ve read the Koran, and don’t find it any more “violent” than the Bible, which I’ve read as well.
There is a radical wing of Islam that is promoting — and carrying out — threats against the West. There are also millions of Muslims around the world who are just as aghast at the violence as Christians, Jews, whatever. A religion/geographical location does not make a person more violent or more peaceful. What makes for violence is a deterioriation of the love and compassion all humans should feel for each other. Sticking our heads in the sand won’t make this kind of violence go away, nor will military strength.
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0 0 Mike, just look at how far advanced the Chinese, Germans & Russians (just to name a few) are compared to us. The work ethic alone in these three countries is far more disciplined than America’s. They get more work done in less time and take on average more days off during the year. On average every other country in this world have citizens that speak at least 2 or 3 other languages. Their math & science scores far exceed ours in every grade level. The obesity rate is virtually non-existant in these other countries. And the list goes on and on.
You made a statement “why is everyone trying to come to America”. Who and where are all these people trying to come to America? It’s only the people in the poorest nations that are trying to come to our country. Not the more intelligent and more advanced nations.
I’m not “bashing” America, I’m just telling it like it is. Sometimes the truth hurts. People don’t like to hear how pathetic their nation has become with the gluttony, greed and longing for their 15 minutes of fame.
Have you ever seen “Jay-walking” on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno? Jay goes up to random people on the street and asks them simple questions about politics, history, etc. Usually 9 out of 10 people can’t answer the simplest of questions about their country and important current events, yet they know what kind of dog Paris Hilton has or stupid details about Brittney Spears. It’s embarrasing!
America basher….not so much. Laughing stock to the world? Oh yeah!
As for Islam, we certainly had better be worried! I agree with some of the “fear mongering” statements from above, but Mike makes some valid points in this regard. I also believe its time we rid ourselves of this oil dependance. It seems Mike is so worried about the time, money and energy needed to implement this? Well I have a question for you. If not now, when? I also agree that certain technologies are already in place they just need to be utilized. But the oil companies are putting the kibosh on these technologies. The thing is, many of these same technologies COME from big oil companies! Some people will have you think that it will cost too much to convert to alternate means of energy, but that’s just not the case.
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0 0 Looks like that round went to Bond! Although I’m looking forward to Mike’s rebuttal, I fear it will only be more of the same mass hysteria and fear propaganda that he thinks our country needs more of. It’s Mikes belief that anybody that stands up to their government in the hope of changing things for the better, is unpatriotic and against the American way of life and that’s just not true.
Just more “blown out of proportion” rhetoric.
Nobody said to cut off our oil consumption completely. I also agree that if we at least cut our consumption in half, that we’d still be fine. By cutting it in half, we wouldn’t need the Middle East and their oil. Whether some here want to admit it or not, there ARE alternative technologies already out their and available, they merely need to be implemented and merged into our daily lives. I find it hard to believe that after all these years, we still can’t bring an internal combustion engine to the masses that will give us 100 miles per gallon. The technology IS out there, but once again, big business and oil companies won’t release it. Because then all their billion dollar yearly profits would go down the drain. But Mike supports these folks and the “right” to rape the American public by cheating us and taking our hard earned money.
There are plenty of other alternative technologies that being held back as well such as the electic car as someone pointed out earlier. (which Mike once again scoffed at) We all know that we won’t replace the internal combustion engine with electric, but at least make it available to the general public and let THEM decide. But no, General Motors would rather you continue to buy their gas guzzeling vehicles and their “so called Hybrids” that cost twice as much, provide less power, and only give you a 1-2% increase in MPG! Because GM is in bed with big oil, but again that’s ok with Mike because why? (it’s the American Dream to make money!!) yeah….ok!
As for Islam…that ones gonna take me awhile to write about!
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0 0 This thread has been reduced to nothing more than personalizing attacks on me. That is well and good. I can take it. However, while you guys are piling on me and my evil friends in Big Business, what about the Islamic threats? I wish you guys took that as seriously as you seem to take Big Business raping everyone!
It seems that the mentality displayed here is that there is not that big of a threat. We shouldn’t be worried, just get out of the Middle East and all will be forgotten by these extremeists? I suppose the terror bombings in Germany and Spain will just go away too?
Many of you guys want to place blame at the doorstep of America and have technology save us from ourselves and them. However, I believe this view begs to forget history of command and conquer practices of Islam. It also denies the present reality that we face that even if we had technology at the ready tommorrow to cut our consumption we are tied to fighting Islamic extremists that wish to dismember Western Culture and Institutions.
What happens to the United States if Europe is attacked or parts of it are blown up by nuclear weapons? What happens if radicals seize nuclear weapons in Pakistan? Would they use them solely on India? I think not. They would use them against the West. This point seems to be lost by the Big Business/American Government bashers. What will it take to get some folks to understand that this threat is not just some make believe episode of “24″?
Let’s say Bonn, Germany, is blown up. What effect would that have on America? It would have crushing implications on America. If you guys think we have a police state now…wait until a nuclear attack occurs even on foreign soil. Your analogies are like a bad dream–we have to wait until a crime occurs to do something. Have any of you ever heard that one from police–it is frustrating and an ill advised way to protect our families and friends.
I really wish you guys would stick on topic and stop the bashing of the country and it’s companies. BTW-since when did it become so out of vogue to be a capitalist? One fight at a time please. I have yet to hear any of you really believe that Islam intends to overthrow the United States and Western Civilization. It’s all about bashing the very institutions the Islamists want to destroy. **(Blown out of proportion alert)** Perhaps you guys should go sign up with Al Qaeda or something like that? It would seem to fit better with your attack patterns. ** Another blown out of proportion alert goes to Slim for this gem: “It’s Mikes belief that anybody that stands up to their government in the hope of changing things for the better, is unpatriotic and against the American way of life and that’s just not true.” You’re right Slim, it is not true, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. I believe that to deny the existence of groups of people that are hellbent on destroying us is unpatriotic. Yet another example, “But Mike supports these folks and the “right” to rape the American public by cheating us and taking our hard earned money.” I am glad you spoke for me yet again, just what I was thinking. How did you know? I love it–this is what we call attacking the messenger and not the message. Just like the Democrats in Congress, you guys can’t seem to get up enough hutzpah to put down the political kool-aid and do what is best for the country. I am talking about protecting ALL Americans from attack. This should not be a partisan or political issue. Why is it being turned into one?
I suspect that you all remember the old Fram Oil and Air Filter commercials? You can either pay $15 now for new filters or wait and wait…..and pay $1500 for a new engine after the damage is done. In my view, we can’t wait to pay for a new ‘engine’. We should be taking proactive steps now to address the threat Islam presents and not be retreating from the fight out of political correctness or a misplaced belief that if we just leave the Middle East they will leave us and our partners in Europe alone. When 9/11 happened we saw an upsurge in Americans of all walks of life coming together. Remember the bumper stickers….”United We Stand”. Take it a step further, “Divided We Fall”. This is exactly what the Islamists are counting on. From the looks of things in Congress and even this site, nobody is coming together to fight the coming storm. The question still stands: Why is this being made into a partisan issue? We face a formidable and deadly foe. This is tantamount to knowing that Hurrican Katrina is coming and doing nothing to prepare for it? Why is that exactly? Is it more important to score political points? I suspect that is so. I recall Senator Harry Reid making a comment to a reporter that Democrats would pick up more Senate seats as a result of the Iraq War and all the bloodshed. He was dead right. Good for the Democrats….Bad for America.
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0 0 Man I love those “blown out of proportion alerts”! I think the media & our government needs to start using those! Awesome whoever came up with that phrase!! 
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0 0 Yeah, I thought it was kind of catchy and decided to warn you guys when I was about to unload….lol
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0 0 The Left’s FEAR MONGERING exposed
The latest bombshell to hit the radical left cabal:
Weather Channel Founder:
Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History
newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/11/07/weather-channel-founder-global-warming-greatest-scam-history
Radical liberal loons the kind of Bill Maher and others, in their usual devious conduct of trying to spin on the real threat of the western society, like (or shall I say liked?) to use ‘global warming’, as the ‘real threat’, not ISLAMO - FASCISM. My advice to the militant left from Rosie O’Donnell to the backward “MoveOn” & other left-behind “progressive” fanatics, hurry up, “find” some “other” threat before you are left out to dry by the RIGHT TRUTH.
That very hypocritical radical left that likes to blame the right for being “fear mongers”, now, Who’s the real fear mongering block, and on EMPTY false fake “fears”, How dare they???
See the Forbes’ poll blogs.forbes.com/digitalrules/2007/06/islamic_terrori.html Islamic Terrorism Or Global Warming? Which is the greater threat to civilization?
That was before the exploding article, guess now what’s left on the table?
A tip to radical leftysts, Islamists [AlQaeda, Hezbullah, Palestinians, Abu Sayyaf, Taliban, etc.] couldn’t care less what your “policy” is, reminder, Daniel Pearl, Tom Fox and others were pacifists, still an infidel is an infidel.
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I don’t think that we will ever understand the Muslim world or their religion. Heck, we don’t even understand our own world and all of our religions. As I understand it, the Koran is the Muslim equivalent to our Bible. Correct? How many of us understand our Bible? How many versions of it are there? We have had a lifetime of studying, learning and practicing and we are still “Babes in the Woods”. Everyone interprets it differently. I think the best we can do is to accept their beliefs and leave them in peace. Just as we want other nations to accept our beliefs and leave us in peace.