Idaho is facing a major prison problem, and which appears it will reach a crisis point. I fear that Idaho’s prison population is now or will soon grow faster than our resident population does. This will lead to an inevitable disaster as a dwindling population of hard working Idaho residents are forced to pay higher taxes for an increasing prison population. The math is not headed in the right direction for Idaho in this respect. Do we want to pay $60,000 a year per person to lock them up, or would we rather steer them to being contributing society members?
This discussion is intended to brainstorm solutions to Idaho’s prison problem, and evaluate the potential effectiveness of those proposed solutions. Nothing should be off the table, because radical solutions are probably needed. If you think an idea will not work, please state objectively why you think that rather than just dismissing it as “stupid”.
One band-aid solution has been the drug treatment center that Representative JoAnn Wood got passed last year. It is a great first step in philosophy and practicality, but it is a drop in the bucket at this point. I think what is really needed is for some legislators to start a campaign to reverse this trend, and the campaign will involve multiple attacks.
One idea is to start early prevention. We reap what we sow, right? Idaho is sowing clear factors that lead to reaping larger prison populations later. BYU researchers are saying that early childhood education can help reduce later behaviors which lead a person to prison. How about a set of education initiatives aimed at reducing later prison populations? Initiatives likely to reduce later prison populations include mandating Kindergarten, funding preschool, and regulating daycares statewide. Can our legislators recognize the value of these investments where we will not see returns for at least fifteen years?
A radical idea is to require welfare recipients to undergo random daytime drug tests while they collect welfare checks. I saw this idea in an email the other day, and it makes so much sense that I cannot believe we do not already do it. The folks working hard and paying for others’ welfare benefits often have to undergo workplace drug testing to keep their jobs. However if those same workers get fired for doing drugs, they can then receive public welfare without submitting to urinalyses. Does this make any sense?
Another radical idea is to comprehensively address illegal drug policy. I read articles all the time that say marijuana users account for a huge portion of prison populations, despite that the nonviolent nature of their crimes. I do not imagine that marijuana or other drugs will be decriminalized anytime soon, but perhaps Idaho could reform our sentencing guidelines to direct marijuana users to community service instead of prison? I would rather see marijuana users mowing our park lawns, picking up trash, and shoveling the walks in front of senior centers. Reforming marijuana sentencing to punish with community service instead of prison time should provide immediate relief in our prisons.
I fear that in 10 years, Idaho will regret not making changes now. What do you think of these ideas, and what other ideas do you have for fixing Idaho’s prison problem?
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This article provides interesting details about Alabama’s struggles with overcrowded prisons:
http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050206/prison.shtml
Half of their prisoners were nonviolent property and drug offenders. Prison facilities wear out faster (incurring more frequent replacement costs) with being overcrowded.
The article ended by noting that one of their problems was also an apathetic public. Idahoans sure care about paying taxes, so we should care just as much about finding cheaper alternatives to our prison problems.
Most of the people doing any significant time on drug charges in Idaho are methamphetamine related crimes. There are very few doing any sort of prison time for marijuana and those are your traffickers and high level dealers. The number one problem with our society is methamphetamine. It is the underlying cause to most of our burglaries, robberies, thefts, and violent crime. If you could magically make every last bit of methamphetamine disappear we would have non-crowded prisons full of sex offenders and the people that really need to be in there.
The above poster is absolutely correct that meth is driving the prison population. And while certainly some meth addicts commit violent crimes, most meth related crime that lands people in prison is either simple possession or property crimes to buy meth.
Clearly any realistic solution to the prison explosion must therefore involve meth prevention and rehabilitation.
And anyone suggesting ridiculous solutions like taking away TV’s needs to educate themselves because that doesn’t fix the overcrowding problem, it means the prisoners will be more likely to riot.
I tried to find statistics for how many inmates in Idaho prisons are there for drug related crimes, but after a long search, I realized that I really didn’t know how to find them, so what I am going to say next is based strictly on what I have heard and I don’t have any firm data to back it up.
I have heard that more than 1/2 of the prison population are there for drug related crimes. And that one of the best places to get drugs is in prison itself. A member of my extended family was sent to prison for marijuana and cocaine use (a repeat offender). He learned a lot of new tricks while in prison. Such as how to make lethal weapons (and how to use them) out of available items. Plus he also got new drug connections while in there. When he got out of prison, he was scary. He spent most of his time working out on weights until he was quite “buff”. He even won several competitions in prison for his prowness. After four years of spending all of this time lifting weights, exercising, etc., imagine how he must have built up. Anyway when he came out, he played the game of being clean for about 2 months. Then it became apparent that he was just as addicted as ever — if not more so. He got in fights and sent most of his opponents to the hospital. He also found religion (this looks good when going before the parole board), but he lost this religion when he hit the streets. Another prison term. This time when he got out, he didn’t even play the game and try to act clean, but by now he had graduated to meth. Now he is homeless, mean, addicted, and will probably end up dead in an alley some night.
This is the only case that I have first hand knowledge of, hopefully there are some happier endings out there, but in my opinion, prison did not accomplish anything except to get him off the streets for a few years. He was worse off when he came out than when he went in.
Before his first prison term, he was in a couple of treatment programs, but they only lasted about 30 days. It was not long enough. The second time, he left on his own after one week. Plus these treatment programs are extremely expensive, the average family cannot afford to send someone there without spending most of their cash reserve and borrowing a lot. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know from this one example that it isn’t prison.
I think it would be important and informative for us to find out what percentage are marijuana vs. meth prisoners. The meth heads I dare say are more prone to violence than average marijuana users. Treatment is a much better option for both than prison, but I think the meth heads need more work to get them clean. So we need to find that information.
In my opinion some hard work and being productive will do more for rehabilitation then almost any treatment. Let’s bring back “chain gangs” and the like and make sure that the prisoners know they are contributing to the improvement of their society. Create opportunities to continue doing the skill they learned on the “chain gang”
I totally agree with the chain gang thing. I remember back in the day you used to see them all the time on the side of the road, cleaning up debris, cutting the grass, picking up trash etc…. great idea and a good way to keep our highways and communities clean.
I agree wholeheartedly with the “make prison horrible” philosophy, but in this discussion I was hoping to hear more ideas about what we can do to prevent people from going into prison at all.
The drug treatment center is a good idea. Hopefully JoAnn Wood’s pilot project is successful and replicated around the state.
I think an emphasis on early childhood education would help Idaho eventually reduce prison populations, in addition to other benefits.
What ideas do you think will reduce prison populations?
This believe this issue came up in different post a couple months ago, in regards to having our middle & high school kids go visit the prisons and county jails in and around Idaho to give them an idea just how terrible a place it is. Have some of the inmates speak with these students to inform them their actions have consequences and prison is not a place you want to end up. If I recall correctly, there were quite a few posters who were against this idea for whatever reasons. I think this would ge a great way to inform and to teach our kids to “think twice” before committing a crime that may land them in jail or prison.
There are problems with community based treatment initiatives. For instance, treatment for meth addicts vs. marijuana addicts needs to be very different. It is not. Enforcing sobriety is a must for meth addicts. Before treatment can really take hold the meth addict needs to be placed in an inpatient setting for at least 4 months. Attempting cognitive restructuring treatment on a meth addict that is not clean is a waste of time and money. It may be more effective for a pot user but not for the “hard” street drugs. Presently, Idaho uses the same model for all it’s drug treatment. This is why it is not effective and we are seeing too much recidivism.
The treatment center is a step in the right direction, but it will take more resources and half-way house placements with strict drug testing measures to make treatment take hold. For example, Idaho Falls has the ARA center as the lone inpatient center. There are not many inpatient centers in Idaho. ARA is also one of the few half-way houses in the area as well. It’s rules are lax and occupants come and go without quality oversight–too lax in my book to be effective at keeping out drugs and maintaining sobriety.
As a private contractor, they have a vested interest in keeping clients there to receive a check. They often don’t report violations and the clients skate.
Idaho needs to use the concept of Day Reporting Centers and the current concept of Community Work Centers (like the one on Bombardier Street) to combat prison commitments. Structured living assignments, coupled with work during the day and treatment at night is the way to go. It would require more staff and space; however, it saves the state money in the long run because inmates pay 25% of their work checks to the State for room and board.
I am a firm believer that if you give someone something for free they will either abuse it or not truly appreciate it. Presently, Idaho uses a 3rd party to screen and assess drug users and places them on a waiting list for treatment. The financial screening often affirms the obvious: drug users are poor and can’t afford to pay for their treatment. So, the State subsidizes them anywhere from 5 to 95% of the cost. I will note that several persons involved in this process tell me that the norm is 95% coverage. Inmates don’t take their treatment seriously because they have to pay for it. I have been told of several studies that support the fact that inmates that have to pay for the majority of their treatment take it more seriously and internalize what they are learning than if it is just handed to them. Criminals find the resources to buy drugs, beer, and party it up….surely they can be made to pay more than $4 or $5 a treatment session. I believe that as we force them to be more financially involved in their treatment costs that this will have a more positive effect on the results.
Additionally, the State pays large sums of money to the 3rd party to screen and assess referrals. I don’t believe this company is local or even in Idaho. These services could and should be localized. In fact, one well placed employee in say the Department of Corrections, Vocational Rehab, etc. in each judicial district could administer the program at significant cost savings to the state….and allow that money to flow into treatment vs. administrative costs.
The bottom line is that longer periods of in-house and monitored rehab is necessary for meth addicts. Assuming a meth addict stays sober, it can take upto 6 months for the brain chemistry to return to normal. This is why extended periods of habilitation are necessary…..and because of this hole in the treatment structure, we are not seeing results from community based treatment that we all want and expect. Thus, more prison commitments occur due to an inability to address the true needs of effective treatment modalities.
I read an interesting article that says the U.S. prison population is equal to being the 4th largest American city, bigger than Houston (currently #4):
http://hearmythunder.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewnews&id=202
The author seemed to indicate that as many as 48% of our prison population is composed of non-violent offenders. He questions if our nation is truly “free” anymore?
I think I read a statistic some years back saying like 1/3 of all blacks have been involved in the wrong side of our criminal justice system.
We talked earlier about the drug user problem. Most addicts are not inherently dangerous, but when taken to extremes they commit violent acts to support their addictions (especially meth-heads).
I think if a person is busted with even meth, they should not go to prison but into treatment, however hard-core that requires. If the meth-head is busted with a lab in their home, that crosses into a violent crime because of the danger there.
What do you think of that article, or any of this?
People don’t realize how many freedoms we have lost because they’ve been lost slowly over time. Things that were legal 25 years ago, will now get you 10-20 years in prison. We have nobody to blame but ourselves though.
We need to get rid of this “war on drugs” and incarcerating every single person holding a joint or some pills. It’s costing our state over 60 million dollars a year to house drug users. That’s a staggering cost and it’s only going to get worse if we don’t make some changes. And until we start voting in leaders who are willing to make changes to the system, we’re going to continue to loose our freedoms until you can’t spit on the sidewalk without getting 5 years in prison.
We need to start with reforming the war on drugs, and then the patriot act.
Here are US Dept. of Justice Statistics for incarceration rates.
Prison Statistics
Summary findings | BJS publications | Selected statistics |
Also by BJS staff | Related sites
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Summary findings
On June 30, 2006–
– 2,245,189 prisoners were held in Federal or State prisons or in local jails — an increase of 2.8% from midyear 2005, less than the average annual growth of 3.4% since yearend 1995.
– there were an estimated 497 prison inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents — up from 411 at yearend 1995.
– the number of women under the jurisdiction of State or Federal prison authorities increased 4.8% from midyear 2005, reaching 111,403 and the number of men rose 2.7%, totaling 1,445,115.
At yearend 2005 there were 3,145 black male sentenced prison inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,244 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 471 white male inmates per 100,000 white males.
In 2003 there were an estimated 650,400 State prisoners serving time for a violent offense. State prisons also held an estimated 262,000 property offenders and 250,900 drug offenders.
Click on the chart to view full sized version.
Most serious offense Percent of sentenced
State inmates
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1995 2003
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Total 100 % 100 %
Violent 47% 52%
Property 23% 21%
Drug 22% 20%
Public-order 9% 7%
These stats tell us that the amount of drug offenders incarcerated actually went down 2%. This challenges the myth that we are incarcerating pot smokers and other minor drug offenders on the first strike.
Idaho routinely does not incarcerate first time offenders, even second and third time offenders. They get probation out of the gate….and many chances to quit their destructive behavior before incarceration. If you look at the sizeable amount of offenders on probation vs. incarceration in Idaho this plays out as judges granting probation over and over again vs. dropping the hammer on possession cases. So, for all the myth about the war on drugs imprisoning first time offenders and filling the prisons up with no room for violent offenders, it just isn’t true.
I was glad to see a recognition by posters on this site about the dangers posed by meth. Meth induces changes in the brain and actually eats brain tissue that does not regnerate. This causes mental problems such as schitzophrenia, paranoia, and violence. It is also worthwhile to keep in mind that present day marijuana has much higher levels of THC than those of 2 decades ago. I think it would be interesting to know if there are any studies about the effects of higher THC content on addiction and impairment of judgment.
In answer to Joe’s question: Are we really free anymore? How do we get to this question when what we are really talking about is the behavior of people that break the law. People are responsible for their actions. If someone violates the law, there are consequences. If more people choose to break the laws what does that have to do with our freedom. Does it equate that our freedom is dependent on the number of people locked up in prison? I think it argues the opposite: the more law breakers locked up enhances our freedom–freedom from being robbed, raped, burglarized, or being run into by intoxicated or stoned drivers.
The History channel has been showing a documentary about “Illegal Drugs & How They Got That Way” this past week and I would encourage EVERYBODY to tune in and watch it. It talks about how all these drugs used to be legal and there wasn’t an “epidemic” or problem with drug use, the way our government and media has made it out to be. They explained why drugs were made illegal and why our government over the years has over emphasized their effects. The government, law enforcement and the media have all told us over the years (drilled it into everyones head rather) that if you try meth even once, you’re going to get “hooked”. This simply is not the case. The same goes for many other drugs. Drugs are just like alcohol in the respect that they must be used in moderation. However, some people don’t know how to use in moderation, which is why we have alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.
The fact is, the so called “war on drugs” is not working and it has never worked. The only way to get rid of the “drug problem” is to decriminalize them. All you need to do is look at the Netherlands and see how it was before and after they decriminalized drugs. Their drug “problem” was just like ours in it’s heyday. Since they’ve decriiminalized drugs, they haven’t had NEAR the problems they had when drugs were illegal.
People like Mike will have you think that since the THC levels in pot has risen over the years, that that has made pot more addictive and made people more “out of it” or stoned if you will. This just isn’t the case. It merely makes it so where you used to need a joint to give you a buzz, now you only need a couple of drags.
Changes need to be made and they need to be made soon. 60 million dollars a year to house drug offenders in Idaho alone is too much.
Yeah, and lead paint used to be legal too. The people that you talk to that wish meth never existed are the people that are hooked on it. They aren’t complaining about their legal problems either. It completely rules their life and they cannot stop. I’ve seen a few people make some good hearted attempts to quit but it wasn’t until a lengthy term in jail forced the issue and got them clean. Follow up with probation to ensure they stay that way. Works pretty good for some people and most of the time they were not doing time for drug charges. Most of the time they actually get sent on repeated property crimes like burglary, forgery,check and credit card fraud. That costs us all. I’m sure all the drug related property and fraud crimes more than surpass the mentioned 60 million dollars mentioned above.
I don’t know where some of you are coming from. There are no people serving prison time in Idaho for having a joint.
Correct on possession of a joint. That is a misdemeanor. Felony levels are 28 grams or more for trafficking (with a mandatory 3 yr. prison term), manufacturing controlled substances, or delivery of controlled substances. Simply possessing a joint will not send you to state prison.
I see guest 007 is at it again making the case to use drugs in moderation: “Drugs are just like alcohol in the respect that they must be used in moderation. However, some people don’t know how to use in moderation, which is why we have alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.”
I suppose if Larry Craig used drugs in moderation it would be okay too because we are all human and make mistakes? I appreciated the comments from “my opinion”–you can’t use harder drugs without serious health consequences and legal problems, let alone that drugs like meth DESTROY brain tissue. How can anyone in their right mind support moderate use of meth, heroin, cocaine, oxycontin, or any other drugs that impair judgment. Using alcohol (which is legal) to bolster reasons to allow use of drugs is laughable and sad. It doesn’t make it right, nor does it mean that it is an acceptable idea for public policy.
I didn’t mean to suggest people are in prison for possesing one joint, but people DO get “arrested” all the time for it. I know, it happened to me in my college days and I had to spend the weekend in county. So don’t tell me people don’t get arrested for possesion of small amounts of drugs. It happens every single day in this country. And THAT costs us money and clogs up our court rooms.
You people and your “statistics” who have never touched a drug in your life, have no clue what you’re talking about. You go by what government officials tell you, the same ones that are supporting the “war on drugs”.
And Mike you’re way off on the Alcohol statement you made. Alcohol severely impairs your judgement, a lot worse than many other drugs. [edited for derogatory comment]
What about Guest007’s comment on the decriminalization in the Netherlands? Seems like nobody wanted to touch that one. That’s because it WORKS!
Guest007: I too saw the documentary you spoke of on the History Channel and I suggest everyone check it out before spouting off their theorys on this issue. It shows over the years how the government has drilled it into our heads and over-emphasized the dangers related to drugs.
Sure, meth is a bad drug and it ruins peoples lives. But so does Alcohol. I’ve known quite a few people over the years that tried meth, coke, acid and a dozen other drugs and they didn’t get hooked and their lives weren’t ruined.
Mike, you dismiss MY opinions, but I’m supposed to accept YOUR opinions on this issue. I know from first hand experience. You may have witnessed such problems, but you really have no clue. You don’t hear about the millions of people over the years that have used in moderation or occasionally and live normal productive lives. It happens every single day Mike. But some of you will only believe that ANYONE that try’s ANY drug is going to get hooked and ruin their lives and become a thief and a criminal. That’s just preposterous and that is exactly what the government has been drilling into peoples heads for the past 2+ decades.
I’m not saying meth and other harder drugs should be sold in the local market. It is a bad and addictive drug for some. The point is our prisons are full of “users” that haven’t committed a crime or harmed another person. All I’m saying is we need to re-think our stance on drugs in our soceity. Sure, continue to prosecute those people that are strung out on meth and do a home invasion. I’m all for that. But look at other countries and how they handle the situation and see how much better it works, than our “war on drugs” plan that hasn’t worked from the getgo.
I have news for Mike and my opinion:
There ARE people in prison for a joint. Or even less. Many of the people in prison are there because of probation violations. Even small violations, such as having a dirty urinalysis, with no drugs even found. But the decision on what is and what isn’t a serious violation is very arbitrary.
Some probation officers are out to get certain people any way they can. I know that some of you will take exception to that statement but I have seen it happen with my own family members. I have seen them sent to prison for ONE dirty UA. And get this, the relapse was admitted to the officer in advance by the probationer when there otherwise would have been no suspicion. I have seen instances where others who have multiple violations are left on the streets. It’s not even really a judge’s decision most of the time, whatever the PO recommends is usually what happens.
It’s kind of an odd situation, the probation/parole officers and the prison system are all part of the same state agency. I think there is a culture of keeping people under the jurisdiction of the Department of Correction as long as possible after their referral. When an officer recommends that someone have their probation revoked and have them sent to prison, it is just more job security and budget security for the Department of Correction. I really believe that. As long as they can keep people in the system they need the bigger staffs and bigger budgets. Who knows, if there were other treatment options and more emphasis on really helping people, maybe a lot of the DOC employees would find themselves without jobs. That could be a good thing.
One more point, the low percentage of inmates incarcerated for drug charges is very misleading. As another poster pointed out, many of the other crimes would not have been committed if the criminal didn’t also have a drug problem. Even with that being said, I agree with 007 that the war on drugs is not working. I don’t know if legalization or decriminalization is the answer. But there are a lot of lives being wasted in prisons that shouldn’t have to be.
There are alot of “opinions” floating around on this subject. But some here have actually experienced either first hand, or through friends or family members, the fact that the war on drugs is not working. I tend to believe those that have actual experience and/or know people that have actually been through the system and know first hand. People can give their statistics and opinions all day long on this issue. But from what I’ve experienced over the years myself and friends and family, is more in line with what 007 and some others have noted. I too saw the History channel documentary and former DEA agents sit in front of the camera and tell you about how the government has drilled into peoples heads how evil drugs are and how it’s ruining society and this country. It’s all about money and control over the people.
Guest11, you make some good points as well. I’ve known many with the same experiences.
I was say I’m not so much for legalization, but decriminalization.
I’m conflicted on the “one mess up” issue. I heard a cop describe the situation well how people get themselves tripped up in our criminal justice system. They earn a violation and have to do some court dates and other requirements. The problem is they miss a court date or are late meeting a requirement, and our justice system does not have time to deal with people who cannot toe the line. If they let one thing go, they have to let others go, and soon the whole environment is dealing with excuses of why requirements were not met. If you get in trouble, you have to know that you need to toe the line until you work your way out of the system. Perhaps this should be explained more clearly when people are arrested or ticketed? I don’t think the explanation should be a Miranda-rights requirement, but if cops take it on themselves to explain this “toe the line” concept for a couple minutes whenever they arrest someone, it might help some people work out of the system easier. Does that make sense?
Different people keep talking about writing a dedicated ‘war on drugs’ discussion article, but I’m not sure if it will get done.
I really believe we should legalize ALL drugs, and my logic may be flawed but here it is. Take meth, if it were decriminalized, then it could be commercially manufactured and sold to adults over 21. If it is commercially available, we will see a drop off in home meth labs. Boom, took care of a huge problem right there.
If drugs were legalized and commercially available, they could be taxed like cigarettes, and those extra taxes could be funneled right into treatment programs. I think we would be able to deal with drug addictions on the same level as alcoholism, getting people more treatment options than jail time. In the process we would also inject more business opportunities into our economy.
Joe, the thing I’ve noticed about the “one mess-up” issue is that it is not applied consistently. I wish I could remember who it was, but Just in the past few weeks in the news I recall hearing about how someone was arrested and reportedly had something like six probation violations in the past year or two. And they were still out on the streets. Others are sent to prison for one violation. And it’s the probation officers making these decisions, not judges. Since when does having a personality conflict with a P.O. justify going to prison? It happens in Idaho.
And then we have the famed “three stikes law” in states like California. We’ve got people spending life in prison because their so called “3rd strike” was public intox or disorderely conduct charge. This too is a waste of taxpayer money and prison space. Major reform needs to be enacted in both our prison system and the laws concerning drug use/possession, etc.
Probation Officers are not deciding whether a guy goes to prison or not. It is an independent judge that decides that issue. Goto the local probation office and talk to them. They will show you that the concept of intermediate sanctions is utilized as a means of policy. Additionally, supervisors of officers don’t sign off on violation reports unless intermediate steps are taken first, i.e. treatment, brief local jail time, cognitive behavioral treatment, curfew, electronic monitoring, etc.
As for keeping people in the system, look at the discharge rate of persons from suspervision: the numbers are high. Many offenders are getting discahrged once they reach 1/2 their time. For example, a guy who gets busted for possession is sentenced to 4 years probation. Once he reaches 2 years he is eligible for consideration for early release. The only guys that have to stick out full time are sex offenders and violent types.
As for being able and told how to negotiate their way out of the system, offenders are given explicit rules of conduct from the court order (and given copies) of what they are allowed to do, and what they can’t do. It’s not an arbitrary game that is unfair to the offender. They know what the expectations are going into their probation period. There are no suprises waiting for them. If the chose to use drugs after being caught and catch a violation for it I suppose we want to blame the Court or the PO? How about placing the blame on the offender? Or is it more convenient to blame the government for the behavior of persons that engage in hedonistic, unproductive, and destructive behaviors? Answer–take no responsibility and blame it on the war on drugs.
As for legalizing all drugs that is absurd. If the government got involved in manufacturing this garbage you can bet drug users would turn around, sue, and win because the government put a harmful product out there and supported it’s existence. Guess who pays for that stunt? You and I would get stuck paying out. If you don’t think it would happen just look at the baloney people sue for–and win, right now. Anytime the government is involved in something and it goes wrong you can bet money hungry lawyers will be there to sue and feed at the public trough. This is another unintended consequence of legalization.
As for those of you who bring up Holland’s 1976 drug experiment check out this story. It addresses the Dutch experiment with drugs that is always touted as being successful. After more than 30 years in existence, the real results are being seen in the new generations of drug addicts, proliferation of drug trafficking, and movement from “softer” drugs into “hard” drugs such as ecstasy, and amphetamine types of drugs.
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99.n444.a01.html
If the government got involved in manufacturing this garbage
Well actually I don’t think the government would be involved in manufacture any more than they are involved in the manufacture of alcohol or cigarettes. I think it should be legalized so commerce can do the job. The proposal is just for government to get out of the way, a solid conservative principle, right?
I know what they need to do to empty our jails and prisons. They need to get rid of stupid laws that get good people busted for doing nothing. And they need to make it a fair system in court. Everyone should be able to defend themselves not only the rich. And they need to let everyone out that was convicted of something totaly stupid. they need to get rid of most of the laws that let police charge anyone they want. The laws are to strict. That is why the jails are full. And they need to make drug treatment a #1 priority and give drug dealers death sentences and just kill everyone thats on death row thats guilty with out doubt. Our laws need to be reduced by atleast 80% of them.
Who’s going to decide which laws are “stupid”? Which laws do you think are “stupid”? What stupid laws get good people busted for doing nothing? I hope you see my point. Everyone is going to have a different opinion.
Mike, Do you actually belief that pharmecueticals are “safe”? Drug companies get sued all the time for deaths due to drugs they’ve manufacturered. Not to mention the side effects! Most of the time, the side effects are worse than what you’re actually trying to treat. Pot has no side effects, if taken responsibly. (unless you call raiding your fridge for munchies a side effect)
Many other “illegal” drugs have less side effects than what pharmecuetical companies are giving to us. You’re one of those people that has been duped into thinking that drugs are evil no matter what. If taken in moderation, which millions of Americans do everyday, they can be enjoyed and their shouldn’t be laws against personal possesion and consumption. It makes no sense to have tobacco and alcohol legal, and less addictive and less harmful drugs illegal. Tobacco is the most addictive drug on this planet and causes more deaths each year than meth. So why is it still avaiable to the public? Because, they regulated it and taxed it and our government and big business could care less who dies from it. So why isn’t it that way with all drugs? There are lots of people out there that are only casual smokers. Just like there are plenty of people that only have a drink on occasion. Caffeine is another drug. I’ve known people that get up in the morning and if they don’t have their coffee or pop, they literally start going into withdrawls.
This is the problem with our government. They’ve tried to pick and choose what we should or should not consume and THAT in itself took away freedoms we once had.
I disagree with a few of Mike’s comments about probation officers. I am quite sure and it has been my experience that many judges will almost always go along with whatever a P.O. recommends, so whether a person is incarcerated often really is up to the P.O. as much as the “independent” judge.
I also have firsthand experience of a family member being sent to prison for a violation. There were absolutely no “intermediate steps” taken first, i.e. treatment, brief local jail time, cognitive behavioral treatment, curfew, electronic monitoring, etc. In my family member’s experience, it was go to jail, go directly to jail. So I guess the comment that supervisors won’t sign off on such a thing depends on whether or not they like the probationer. They can pretty much do whatever they want once they get a person in the system.
And I also figured that if I brought up the fact that some P.O.’s discriminate against some of the people on their caseload, someone would point out that the probationer is still the one who broke the law and got into trouble. I concede that, but my point is that different probationers have the rules applied differently, and different P.O.’s also apply the rules differently. I have seen it done many times.
Probation officers can say whatever they want regarding their policies, etc. But actions speak louder than words.
Cigarettes, Mtn. Dew and Coffee don’t cause brain damage and make people violent like meth does. Go over to ARA Treatment Center and ask the counselors if drug legalization would be best…ask the addicts themselves. The answer you will get is that it should not be legal because it destroys lives.
Joe, your post clarifies that the government wouldn’t be involved. However, who in their right mind would open a business to manufacture this garbage….and be able to survive the lawsuits that would inevitable come with it….think about it, why are pharmaceutical prices through the roof? Lawsuits is one main reason. Drug companies pass the costs of litigation onto consumers. They don’t absorb the costs. If they did, they would have been out of business by now. The conservative principle here is that government has the duty to protect it’s citizens first and foremost.
Legalizing drugs is the wrong approach and sends children a message that we don’t care what they really do….no worries, go smoke a bowl, and raid Slim’s fridge. Many people think drug use is some harmless act and personal use is okay. They have not had their homes burglarized or car crashed into by a high driver. The idea that no one will get hurt over a joint or two misses the point, drug use like alcohol use is not an answer to personal problems. Many people use to escape crappy lives and numb their pain. Do we help those people by saying legalize dope and just take more or do we have mechanisms to force–yes force–people to seek treatment and counseling to stamp out addictive and destructive behaviors. I don’t see most people lining up to get treatment unless forced to do so by an outside entity and/or family members that do an intervention.
IMO, legalization is a bumper sticker solution to a more complex problem. Many have a knee jerk reaction to the war on drugs and the immediate response is to legalize them…problem solved and move onto the next issue. It doesn’t work that easy or that well. This is an important public policy matter that deserves better than intellectually lazy solutions that contribute to destruction of the individual and society itself. Ask yourself the question: Would I want my children to be able to freely access drugs whenever they wanted? How about their friends? How about your neighbors? Do we really want our society to be so permissive that nothing is off limits. How about legalizing child pornography next? If the parents say it is okay to film children and nobody gets hurt it’s okay, right? Maybe we can also discuss legalizing gambling for underage kids too. Nobody gets hurt there either…a little harmless fun for the kids (to distract them from drugs no doubt). Let’s start letting young kids smoke cigarettes in elementary school as well. They should also be able to knock back a can of Coors as soon as they can reach in the fridge. As you can see the legalization approach is frought with landmines and other unintended consequences. A society with no limits ceases to be a society. It becomes a loose association of selfish individuals looking out only for their own interests and we all suffer because of it. Another poster wants to get rid of “stupid laws”….sounds like anarchy to me.
there he goes again with the ridiculous comparisons! C’mon Mike, lets be realistic here! Stop comparing apples to oranges ALL the time! You have obviously never tried anything harder than tylenol nor had a family member involved with drugs. What you fail to realize is MOST people do NOT use drugs and alcohol to “escape their crappy lives” or “numb their pain”, it’s about having a good time being free to feel the way you want without the government telling you no, you can’t. Just like people have a couple beers after work to wind down, or have a couple glasses of wine with dinner, or some margaritas and go out dancing.
Nobody is talking about child pornography here Mike. Nobody wants to give children cigarettes Mike. Stop blowing everything out of proportion like you always do and stick to the topic at hand.
You have no clue because you’ve never been there personally. I have and you’re way off base.
That’s pretty funny about the violence and meth thing mentioned. That’s a common misconception. Sure it may happen to SOME people, just like SOME people get violent when they drink. Some people are real happy on meth or blow or pot, just like some people are real happy on alcohol. You really have no clue Mike. All you have is your government studies and statistics. Don’t believe everything you read. Sure meth hurts some people and they get all wacked out from it…..JUST like alcohol affects SOME people the exact same way! Alcohol is just as dangerous. It affects the brain when you drink too much for too many years. It eats up your liver and kidneys and ruins you life. Same with cigarettes. but I guess those are ok.
I agree….some with the absurd comparisons.
…who in their right mind would open a business to manufacture this garbage…
Looking at the numbers of drug addicts, heck even at the numbers of Americans who have tried them even once, I’d predict lots of people would get in this business and the market would be flooded soon after legalization.
That’s like asking who in their right mind would manufacture alcohol or cigarettes? Well, lots of people do!
why are pharmaceutical prices through the roof
I encourage you to look at the average posted profits for big pharma companies the last 20 years. The prices are through the roof because they rob us every day, not because of lawsuits.
I think the disconnect is that you see drugs much differently than alcohol, but most Americans view them on the same level.
Wow….seems our prison problem post has turned into a drug war leglize it or not protest type debate! I like it! Gotta side with guest11 and slim and their views. government propaganda regarding drugs has been going on for decades and the whold war on drugs bit hasn’t worked from the very start. I say decriminalize. And where do some of you get off trying to say….”I guess we should legalize child porn?” That one blew my mind!
Slim obviously has used drugs with no problems. Good for Slim. How about the other folks that use them and commit crimes to pay for their habits? Slim infers that because I haven’t tried anything harder than Tylenol that I just don’t understand. IMO, Slim and other folks that claim to successfully use dope with no problem don’t understand addicts and what they do. So, if we Slim wants to use his positive use of drugs as a basis to support legalization then maybe a trip to the jail and treatment centers talking to addicts and users of controlled substances who have messed up their lives would be a wake up call. I have been there and done that and it is not pretty.
The debate about prison reform and even drug legalization takes a turn for the worse when people take their own limited experiences as a guide of how everyone should act and what laws should be in place. The broader picture of drugs in America is a picture of despair, hopelessness, crime, and violence. Kids lose their parents to drugs and then to death or jail as a result of the drug use. Parents lose their kids to unfettered access to dope. Employers lose potentially good employees and lost productivity results.
Living in society requires boundaries to be upheld and respected. It would seem that many of you want to gamble with the future by legalizing drugs and making it easy for anybody to get their hands on dope. Wouldn’t it be nice if drug users could be cool like Slim and hang out in peace and eat munchies all day long at no cost to the rest of us. What a great life people could lead sitting around smoking a bowl and relaxing talking about the real meaning of life. Reality is much different than this. Even in little ol Idaho Falls. People steal from their own families to support their habits. They commit rape and murder under the influence. They steal from businesses and others. It’s not some big party where everyone can kick back. It may have worked for many of you posting on this site, but how about looking at the experiences of persons other than yourselves. Understand that this debate is larger than your individual experiences and effects millions of people. Is that too much to handle? Is it too hard to look outside of yourselves and see the real damage drugs cause on the population and ask yourself: If I had to give up my drugs for a better society would I be willing to do it? If I had to give up drinking alcohol for a better society would I do it? What part of yourself would you be willing to sacrfice for a better community? Or do we just fold and let everyone start smoking, snorting, and shooting up to their hearts content. Ever seen a heroin or meth user after they shot up all the veins on their arms and legs? Maybe if you had it would make your drug use truly pale in comparison to the seriousness of this topic.
Mike, I HAVE witnessed the abuse of drugs first hand. My grandmother was an alcoholic, my brother was a drug addict and lost everything, his business, his wife, his daughter, got thrown in jail for 18 months etc. I’ve known friends that have gotten hooked on meth and I’ve known alcoholics. I’ve known people addicted to cigerattes. I’ve known people addicted to food. I’ve known people addicted to adrenaline, money, pills, sex, and the list goes on and on. It’s called having an “addictive personality”. Some people get hooked on drugs, some get hooked on food, some get hooked on sex. Maybe I’ll use your analogy. Perhaps we should ban food because there are so many people that are obese. Perhaps we should ban people from sky diving because they sometimes die and it’s dangerous and they shouldn’t be allowed that adrenaline rush you get from sky diving. Why not ban cigerattes? We all know they kill more people each year than all illegal drugs combined.
Your arguement just doesn’t hold up Mike, because if you have an addictive personality, you can be addicted to anything. Not just drugs. Drugs like the ones we’ve been discussing, used to be legal. And the problems didn’t start to arise until prohibition and the Harrison Anti Narcotic Act. Robert A Schless is noted as saying ” I believe that most drug addiction is due directly to the Harrison act. The Harrison Act made the drug peddler, the drug peddler made drug addicts.”
More people die each year from alcohol, tobacco and even asprin, then they do from cocaine, meth or heroine. in 1985 the General Accounting Office at the Pentagon reports that the military’s efforts have had no discernible impact on the flow of drugs. Which means, the war on drugs is not working and is not the answer.
Here is a timeline of the history of drugs from 5000BC to 1986.
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/HISTORY/histsum.htm
Putting users in prison is not and has not been the answer.
I would also urge you to check out this website. It’s quite informative. Part of their mission statement is as follows: “We believe that prohibition is a system which unleashes powerful forces, most notably the illegal drug markets, that inevitably make the underlying drug problem worse while adding a series of costly unintended side effects, including damage to the very values upon which free nations have been founded. We believe that a public well informed about the death, disease and social blight produced by current US drug policy must inevitably seek to reform it.” I urge everyone to read the “who we are” and “information” links on this site. http://www.drugsense.org/html/
Maybe you’ll learn something other than the garbage you’ve been fed all these years.
http://meth.mountainviewhospital.org/
Post 37: that’s another misconception. That if you try it once you’re doomed to addiction. That simply is not true. I’ve known literally dozens of people that have tried it once, twice, even 4 or 5 times and that was it. It wasn’t something they could see themselves doing all the time and they never did it again. I’m not saying everybody go out and try it, I’m just saying the government and media drill lies into America’s heads that you will get addicted to this if you try it just once.
not true.
I will grant that there are addictive personalities present in many factions. I will also grant that there are some folks that can use certain drugs and not get hooked. However, if you look at the people that do use and get hooked….what type of activities are they engaged in? Their lifestyles are laden with destruction. If it were only themselves they were hurting I would have less of a problem granting them the ability to use until they killed themselves. However, this is not the case. They end up hurting more people than themselves. If they have kids, the kids suffer. If they held a job and lost it, now they draw unemployment benefits or welfare. If they can’t get the drug with their own money they steal. They drive cars on the open road with your family and mine on the road with them. When they get high it is usually dragging others into their usage. This can lead to sexual assaults or other poor judgment that harms people. I will not be convinced that drugs like meth, LSD, ecstasy, heroin, even oxycotin and hydrocodone are not addictive and destructive. I don’t need to be fed a “line of garbage” to understand that these substances are indeed garbage and serve no purpose other than to destroy the user and the community.
We will probably never agree on this but I firmly believe that if we had unfettered access to these substances Idaho Falls and other communities would be much different places than they are today (and not for the better). Thanks for your comments Slim. Just keep in mind that drug use doesn’t meet every other persons needs, desires and aspirations to be a better person and live a happy life without using drugs as a crutch. You can choose to believe or not believe government studies as you put it. However, one does not need to read a government study to understand that legalized drugs are harmful. Indeed, they are no where close in the same category as food or cigarettes. Your families experiences certainly demonstrate that you are aware of the pitfalls of addiction. Certainly if you look at the Gorski model for treating addiction, there is also another step that takes place–denial of a problem. Good luck Slim. I hope your drug use meets your needs over time.
I agree that we will definately have to agree to disagree on this one.
One other point Mike in which you’re sorely misinformed is regarding the recreational user and the destruction its having on his life and others around him. And just for the record, I don’t currently use drugs, alcohol or tobacco. However, I am addicted to coffee and the caffeine therin. But I don’t steal, rape or pillage for my morning “fix”.
I have known casual users for 30+ years from every walk of life, from business owners, Dr’s, nurses, contruction workers, teachers and yes even police officers that have used drugs on a recreational basis. And they’ve all lead normal productive lives. These people didn’t get on the road stoned and put peoples lives in danger, they didn’t rob or steal from people. There’s nothing wrong with renting a limo for the night and getting together with some friends to go club hopping while doing ecstasy. Nobody gets hurt and everyone has a great time. The following day it’s back to normal lives, spending time with family and friends. Same with LSD. There’s nothing wrong with going camping with a group of friends, have a great time laughing around the campfire and then go home back to your normal lives when Monday morning rolls around. You have a great time, you’re out in the middle of nowhere and you’re not hurting anybody. It happens all the time with normal people from all walks of life. The reason you can’t understand this concept is because you only know one point of view, and that’s the view that the government and media has shoved down your throat since you’ve been alive. All you see and hear about is the “horror stories”. Well guess what Mike, there are horror stories in every aspect of life. Many casuals users I’ve known over the years have lead very happy and healthy lives and their casual use was never a “crutch” as you put it.
Another thing is, cigarettes and alcohol ARE in the same category as other so called “harder” drugs. Alcohol related deaths kill more people each year than all illegal drugs combined. It ruins lives and families everyday. But that’s ok because it’s “legal” huh? Cigarettes have thousands of harmful chemicals added to them to make them more addictive to the smoker and the tobacco companies KNOW THIS and DO THIS on purpose to keep people hooked. But that’s ok huh? It’s ok that big tobacco knowingly puts additives into cigarettes to keep people more addicted then the heroin addict. Cigarettes kill more people each year than all the illegal drugs combined! But that’s ok huh?? Their “legal” so it’s ok. In recent years obesity has been killing people at an alarming rate. There are currently over 60 million Americans that are considered obese, and 9 million severly obese. Obesity causes type 2 diabetes, heart disease, and many other problems. Since 1998 obese people are now entitled to disability payments from the Social Security Administration. According to the SSA, 77 million dollars is currently being paid out MONTHLY to obese people!! http://obesity1.tempdomainname.com/subs/fastfacts/obesity_US.shtml
The government is pretty much awarding people for being overweight Mike! WOW!! Must be nice to be able to sit on your butt and eat all day and get paid for it! So lets make food illegal! No? Oh, we can’t do that huh? People have to stuff their faces because their addicted to Big Macs and Twinkies!
I urge everyone to stop looking at this from only one side and start educating themselves to more than one point of view.
I have four family members (that I know of) who are drug users. (See Post #4 for one of the horror stories). The other three have not quite descended to that level, but I fear they are on their way. I see the harm of their addiction everyday. One of them has lost all her teeth and some of her bones are deformed. According to the doctor, these are both related to her drug usage over the past 20 years. Her children went without during their formative years so that she could support her habit. She would go through treatment, get clean for a while and then back on the drugs. Now her daughter is following in her footsteps. The daughter became a mother at age 16, has since had two other kids and from all accounts spends most of her time laying on the couch in a drug induced stupor. She has been caught stealing identities, lives in a place until she is evicted for non payment of rent and all utilities have been shut off. Then she moves and the cycle starts again. She has lost her kids twice but the courts always give them back. The son has been in and out of court imposed treatment centers for the past four years and he is only 16. He is currently incarcerated. Every time one of the family members steps in and tries to help — buying diapers, food, paying utilities, we are told that we are “enabling” the drug abuser. It is extremely hard on family members to sit by and watch what is happening to the kids and not be able to do anything about it. It is always the kids that suffer and pay the consequences it seems.
Granted, my experience is quite limited for what I believe many of you have seen or know, but I have to agree with Mike on this issue. In these cases that I have first hand knowledge of, they are on welfare, and are constantly complaining about how the system doesn’t give them a break. How come they can’t have new cars, fancy clothes and go out to eat on a regular basis.
At one time I believed that marijuana should be legalized, but now I am not so sure. I still think it should be legalized for medical reasons. I understand that it helps tremendously with the treatment of pain in cancer victims.
Where did the topic go?? Remember we are talking about a solution to lower the amount of traffic in our jails and prisons. Most crime is Meth related. then you have the people who are charged for rediculous charges. Like felony burglary for stealing at the store thats peti theft. Or resisting arest is used to common there needs to be a clear message to officers on how to use this one. And we need to get rid of old laws that do no good. Another one is let parents correct children no more arresting our kids unless the crime is real bad (murder or rape). I think all non violent offenders (except sex offenders) should be let out.
All the non-violent offenders can come visit your house.
No more arresting kids…hmmm…how about those kids that spray painted all the stop signs? Just let them do what they want? Are you kidding? People still have to be held accountable for property crimes, bad checks, theft, etc….we don’t just shrug our shoulders and look the other way. The poster above demonstrated what results this begets….drug users show the way for their respective kids to follow in their footsteps. Fortunately, some kids don’t, but too many are impressionable and when this is all they see in their parents they tend to follow. So, if you want to get rid of all the ’stupid laws’ society ceases to main structure that is necessary for people to co-exist peacefully. Prisons are designed for those folks that can’t or won’t conform.
I mentioned this earlier in another thread, but I don’t know why Idaho doesn’t exchange mandatory minimums from drug offenses to sexual offenses. I would much rather see sex offenders jailed than drug offenders. It is a disgrace that Idaho has not imposed mandatory sentences for sexual crimes. It seems to me that we have our priorities wrong on this count.
I don’t think the kids should have been arrested for the stop sign tagging.
1. it was a great message and did not interfere with the actual singage whatsoever.
2. Granted, it is wrong to deface property, so let them get out there with a ladder and some paint thinner or other cleaner and clean it off the sign.
I couldn’t believe they actually took down all those signs and replaced them with new ones, when that spray paint could have easily been removed. Just another case of inappropriate city/government spending.
Paint Thinner doesn’t work on the reflective material and damages it. You can’t spray paint red over the tagging either same result–no reflectivity.
More importantly, what if some kids went out and spray painted messages that were offensive and not politically correct?, i.e. instead of “Stop War” how about “Stop Freedom or Stop Drinking Cuervo”? The point is: laws need to be in place to prevent destruction of property–no matter what the message is, whether you agree with it or not because the next message written might not exactly agree with ones political viewpoint(s).
I bet it would work. You’re not trying to take off the “reflective material”, you’re trying to take off the white spray paint. (obviously) And that kind of paint is easily removed from surfaces like that. (I worked in a auto body shop when I was younger so I know the effects & results paint thinner has on a vareity of surfaces) It would have been a lot cheaper doing it that way, then paying city workers to come out take the sign down, then put a new sign up.
I say make the kids responsible for doing these things, by wearing bright orange jumpsuits and make them get up their with a step ladder and remove it by hand. Have them carry a sign with them that states, “I’m the person who defaced this city property and now I’m cleaning it up”. Or something to that effect.
I believe I mentioned this earlier in the post, but I’m a strong believer of putting inmates or juvenile deliquents “to work” for their crimes against society. We need to enact more “community service, both on a city level and a federal level. I remember when I was a youngster, I used to see the prisoners out on the side of the roads & highways, cleaning up trash and pulling weeds. We really need to bring this back. One, it helps to keep the community clean and two, it’s humiliating for the prisoners and that should (I repeat “should”) help them think twice before committing the crime in the first place. At the same time, although it may be humiliating, I think it helps prisoner moral. They get to go outside and get some fresh air and exercise and it gives them a feeling of accomplishment. That in turn helps to keep stress from building up and fights from breaking out.
I also think “community service” needs to be given out more for non-violent drug offenses. I believe think the court system, judges etc. need to stop using the “intent to distribute” call as much as they do. A large number of inmates are doing 20-30 years for having a certain amount of narcotics over a certain weight limit. Many of these inmates did not get busted for selling, but merely for having a large amount in their possession. Get rid of this ridiculous law and get back down to treatments, house arrests, community service, mandatory work in soup kitchens, habitat for humanity and a number of other worthwhile organizations that utilize “volunteers”.
Two items to consider: 1) The point was that without laws in place you don’t have a way to force community service projects.
2) The definition of a community service worker first appeared as part of House Bill 73 — an
act related to the juvenile justice system of the state — which was introduced in 1989 during the first
regular session of the Centennial Idaho Legislature. Section 12 of House Bill 73 containing the
definition amended Section 72-102, Idaho Code, in conjunction with an amendment to Section 72-
205, Idaho Code, (found in Section 13 of House Bill 73) providing that a community service worker
would be considered to be an employee in public employment. In 1994, the Legislature added provisions to the bill to add to the definitions of who would be considered a community service worker and expanded the the number of locations courts could place persons for community service projects.
In this Judicial District, the Courts often order anywhere between 100 to 300 hours of service work during a probationary period. Thus Idaho has been on track with Community Service for over a decade or more. Idaho also uses Community Work Centers in Boise x2, Twin Falls, Nampa, and Idaho Falls to integrate offenders into communities.
As for drug trafficking statutes, they need to remain on the books. Have you ever seen over 28 grams of meth? (28 grams is the required minimum weight required for a trafficking charge) Obviously, if one is carrying around 28 grams or more of any drug it is for more than personal use and is being muled for sale. My objection is the mandatory minimum sentences attached to these statutes. It should definitely be shifted to sex offenses. However, evil one things the drug laws are, when we have people selling drugs to people that are addicted, or to children, we need laws on the books to deal with those situations.
I have not ever seen 28 grams of meth (thank goodness), about how big is it? About as much as an oatmeal packet? A box of cereal? A bag of flour?
28 grams is not that much. Sure it sounds like a lot, but if you were to put it in say a sandwhich baggie, it would be about the size of a deck of cards. Granted its most likely more than what someone would have for personal use, but there’s no proof that said person is trafficking it. I could have been purchased for a party or what have you. I agree, these automatic “trafficking with intent to distribute” laws need to be adjusted. Who’s to say how much “personal use” is or weighs? I just think 20+ years for that amount is ridiculous. Now when it comes to having kilo’s of said product, thats another story.
meant to write, “IT” could have been purchased…. I personally don’t mess with that garbarge.
You don’t get a 20+ year sentence for trafficking meth. A common sentence is more like 3-5 years and they usually get out on probation/parole prior to completing their prison term. You also contradict yourself with your “intent to distribute” statements and then your explanation of it being “purchased for a party”. That would be intending to distribute even if you give it away.
Maybe the laws are different in Idaho but not other states. 20 years ago, I knew a kid who got busted in Arkansas, actually both him and his father did. They got 31 years ea for having over 30 grams. They were charged with “intent to distribute”. Their still sitting in jail to this day.
So yeah….it does happen.
We are talking about IDAHO’S prison issues, not Arkansas. Nobody in Idaho is going to get 31 years for 30 grams.
Someone should look up the laws regarding this….I’d like to know too. I bet there’s not that much of a difference in jail time between Arkansas, Idaho, Montana and wherever. The courts don’t mess around when you’ve got large quantities of THAT kind of narcotic.
myopinion…..your name suits you well. that’s exactly what you’re giving is YOUR opinion. Idaho certainly isn’t going to give you a slap on the wrist for 28-30 grams of meth. You need to lay off the lines if you think you’re only going to get 3 years for that kind of quantity!
Sadly everyone missed my point. My point is there are people in prison that could be doing community service or something else. they could always hit some one where it hurts right in the wallet. As for my comment about the kids. I think kids should do community service for non violent crimes. Vandalism should be handled in this manner. I once scratched dirty words all over a school building when i was 10 I had to shovel snow for months and mow the schools lawn durring the summer for several mo. The school got the money out of me by not having to pay someone to do those things. I got 5.00 for everytime i removed snow from the door ways it took me 5 hours everytime. Children should be punished differently from adults. Child molesters should be shot that would get them out of prisons. And drug users need treatment not prison maybe light jail not over 30 days 1 year treatment center. Mike you need to stop twisting peoples words into garbage. Mike there are stupid laws out there that carry a big punishment. Prison is to harsh for petty stuff. Wake up mike not everyone thinks the system should be cruel. I think it should be fair.
Who is twisting it now? I never said prison should be cruel. I said prison was for people that chose not to conform and engaged in behaviors that harmed people.
Your assertion that we should get rid of all the stupid laws (your post 26) was what I commented on. As the poster in 27 asked you, “Who decides what laws are stupid?”. It would appear that you don’t like drug laws. Fine, but the majority of Americans do support them and see the scourge of drugs on our population. Now, while it is possible that the majority of Americans are all stupid buffoons, I think in this case it just isn’t. Many Americans recognize certain behaviors are serious. While you may consider them “petty” many Americans disagree with you. I will note that your assertion that sex offenders should be shot is probably shared by a majority of Americans….however, this idea is likely to gain accepted practice status anytime soon.
In other areas, violent and non-violent offenders are doing community service and receiving probation and the accompanying different treatment modalities to address their poor behaviors and psychological problems.
As far as the current courts and prisons models not much could change to effect population reductions. However, we could and should do a better job at getting people into treatment programs quicker and for longer periods of time. As I advocated earlier, Idaho uses a middle man company (not even in Idaho) that screens offenders for treatment, and places them on waiting lists. I wish I could remember the exact statistic but we spend almost as much in these ridiculous “Administration” costs that we do on actual direct treatment delivery. As taxpayers we are not getting the most “bang for our buck” by involving the middle man principle here.
Quicker access to treatment, and lengthier treatment would serve dividends in helping to reduce recidivism and begin to put offenders back on the right track.
Right now we simply herd them around, forget about them on a waiting list and cross our fingers. This mentality is accepted by the Governor, Health & Welfare and the Department of Correction. We used to have local control over treatment resources (evaluations and treatment delivery). Access was better. However, our legislature took away this control in 1997 in favor of out sourcing these resources (and IMO wasting tax dollars on external Administration) because it looked good on paper. Nobody likes the current system. However, no one seems willing to challenge the system to return to local control. Idaho set up Regional Substance Abuse Authorities or RSAA’s to provide some “oversight” of the company Administering the State of Idaho Substance Abuse Contract. There was no need to privatize this function. We actually had local government bureaucrats like Kathy Blackmon at Health & Welfare doing a great job getting people into treatment. Write Governor Otter and tell him to scrap the RSAA and Comp-Care Administration model for substance abuse treatment. Let’s redirect monies where they belong–right here in our area, not in the pockets of some company that provides lousy service to needy offenders and doesn’t offer one single class involving drug treatment. In the end, if we want to reduce prison admissions we have to do a better job giving offenders the tools to habilitate themselves.
I am personally aware of several local cases in the last few years for methamphetamine trafficking. In those cases the offenders have been sentenced to roughly 3-5 years, which is where I get that figure. One of these offenders had just over 32 grams and previous convictions for delivery. One of our local drug dealers got caught trafficking with a firearm in his possession while making a run between IF and Blackfoot during this past year. He was charged federally and was only sentenced to 9 years in federal prison.
If what “myopinion” says is true, then Idaho has one of the most lax stances on narcotics in the country. The sad thing is Idaho, Montana & Wyoming are three states where the meth problem is really out of control.
Hence the problem…
Question for my opinion:
Are the 3 year to 5 year sentences you are talking about in regard to “trafficking” or “delivery” charges? There’s a big difference. I don’t know of any traffickers getting that light of a sentence.
Trafficking convictions for meth carry a mandatory 3 year penalty. The judge can tack on more time on the minimum sentence to be served and/or more on the indeterminate (maximum sentence). Typically, trafficking in this area is for more than the obigatory 28 grams. Prosecutors usually plea bargain down to a delivery charge for small trafficking amounts (for information on other suppliers/dealers). Larger trafficking amounts get an extra 2-3 years on top of the max. Trafficking pot carries a one year minimum. Hope that helps.
Trafficking pot carries a one year minimum.
What’s the weight or whatever minimum for this substance to become trafficking?
Joe, here is a good link to all the drug trafficking laws for various substances:
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=370270032B.K
In brief:
Marijuana:
1 to 5 lbs. or 25 plants=1 yr.
5 to 25 lbs. or 50 plants=3 yrs.
25 lbs+ or 100 plants=5 yrs.
Cocaine:
28g to 200g=3 yrs.
200g to 400g= 5 years.
400g+=10 years.
Meth:
Attempt to Manufacture=2 years.
Manufacturing=5 years.
28g to 200g=3 years.
200g to 400g=5 years.
400g+=10 years.
Maybe Idaho should take some lessons from Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio:
SHERIFF JOE IS AT IT AGAIN!
Oh, there’s MUCH more to know about Sheriff Joe!
Maricopa County was spending approx. $18 million
dollars a year on stray
animals, like cats and dogs. Sheriff Joe offered to
take the department
over, and the County Supervisors said okay.
The animal shelters are now all staffed and operated
by prisoners. They
feed and care for the strays. Every animal in his
care is taken out and
walked twice daily. He now has prisoners who are
experts in animal
nutrition and behavior. They give great classes for
anyone who’d like to
adopt an animal. He has literally taken stray dogs
off the street, given
them to the care of prisoners, and had them place in
dog shows.
The best part? His budget for the entire department
is now under $3
million.
The prisoners get the benefit of about $0.28 an hour
for working, but most
would work for free, just to be out of their cells
for the day. Most of his
budget is for utilities, building maintenance, etc.
He pays the prisoners
out of the fees collected for adopted animals.
I have long wondered when the rest of the country
would take a look at the
way he runs the jail system, and copy some of his
ideas. He has a huge farm,
donated to the county years ago, where inmates can
work, and they grow most
of their own fresh vegetables and food, doing all
the work and harvesting by
hand. He has a pretty good sized hog farm, which
provides meat, and
fertilizer. It fertilizes the Christmas tree
nursery, where prisoners work,
and you can buy a living Christmas tree for $6 – $8
for the Holidays, and
plant it later. We have six trees in our yard from
the Prison.
Yup, he was reelected last year with 83% of the
vote.
Now he’s in trouble with the ACLU again. He painted
all his buses and
vehicles with a mural, that has a special hotline
phone number painted on
it, where you can call and report suspected illegal
aliens. Immigrations
and Customs Enforcement wasn’t doing enough in his
eyes, so he had 40
deputies trained specifically for enforcing
immigration laws, started up his
hotline, and bought 4 new buses just for hauling
folks back to the border.
He’s kind of a “Git-R Dun” kind of Sheriff.
Update on Joe Arpaio
TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO
HE IS THE MARICOPA ARIZONA COUNTY SHERIFF
AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER
THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY:
Sheriff Joe Arpaio
(In Arizona)
who created the
“Tent City Jail”:
He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and
charges the inmates for
them.
He stopped smoking and porno magazines in the jails.
Took away their weights
Cut off all but “G” movies.
He started chain gangs so the inmates could do free
work on county and city
projects.
Then He Started
Chain Gangs For Women
So He Wouldn’t Get
Sued For
Discrimination.
He took away cable TV Until he found out there
was A Federal Court Order
that Required Cable TV For Jails
So He Hooked Up The Cable TV Again Only Let In
The Disney Channel And The
Weather Channel.
When asked why the weather channel
He Replied,
So They Will Know
How Hot It’s Gonna Be
While They Are Working
ON My Chain Gangs.
He Cut Off Coffee
Since It Has
Zero Nutritional Value.
When the inmates complained, he told them, “This
Isn’t The
Ritz/Carlton…..If You Don’t Like It,
Don’t Come Back.”
More On The Arizona Sheriff:
With Temperatures Being Even Hotter
Than Usual In Phoenix
(116 Degrees Just Set A New Record),
the Associated Press Reports:
About 2,000 Inmates Living In A
Barbed-Wire-Surrounded Tent Encampment
At The
Maricopa County Jail Have Been Given Permission To
Strip Down To Their
Government-Issued
Pink Boxer Shorts.
On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing boxers were
either curled up on their
bunk beds or chatted in the tents, which reached
138 Degrees
Inside The Week Before.
Many Were Also Swathed In Wet, Pink Towels As Sweat
Collected On Their
Chests And Dripped Down To Their PINK SOCKS.
“It Feels Like We Are In A Furnace,”
Said James Zanzot,
An Inmate Who Has Lived In The TENTS for 1 year.
“It’s Inhumane.”
Joe Arpaio,
the tough-guy sheriff
who created the tent city and long ago started
making his prisoners wear
pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit
sympathetic
He said Wednesday that he told all of the inmates:
“It’s 120 Degrees In Iraq
And
Our Soldiers Are Living In Tents Too,
And They Have To
Wear Full Battle Gear,
But
They Didn’t Commit Any Crimes,
So Shut Your Damned Mouths!”
Way To Go, Sheriff!
Maybe if all prisons were like this one
there would be a lot less crime and/or repeat
offenders.
Criminals should be punished for their crimes – not
live in luxury until
it’s time for their parole, only to go out and
commit another crime so they
can get back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy
things taxpayers can’t
afford to have for themselves.
It appears the biggest problem we face with everyone’s perspective is that we desperately want a one-size-fits-all solution.
There are many reasons why a person uses drugs. Some harmful, some not.
There are many reasons why a person chooses to quit drugs. Some are sick of being run through the justice system, some are just through with that phase of their life.
Some people find it easy to quit, others don’t. Some re-offend, others don’t.
There are many people who use drugs who hurt others. There are also many people who use drugs who don’t hurt anybody.
When a drug user encounters the justice system, the one-size-fits-all issue all too often comes into play. There are so many drug cases clogging our courts, probation offices, and prisons that we want to quickly dispose of each case and move on to the next.
The judges get sick of seeing the drug users and become jaded at sentencing. The probation officers get burned out all to quickly and become jaded and unable to see when a person is serious about their recovery and when a person is trying to scam the system. It’s important to know that relapse is a vital part of recovery – it helps the drug user identify his/her triggers so that they can avoid those issues where possible or learn to deal with them more effectively. But if the judge or probation officer is having a bad day (or it’s one of those who has an attitude), they forget that element and apply the one-size-fits-all fix. Except that “fix” may not work in that case.
I know of a case where the probation violation resulted in jail time. What was the PV? The UA was too “watered-down” to test. Of course, it was over 100 degrees outside and had been for days, but we wouldn’t want the probationer to drink plenty of fluids to keep hydrated or it might mess up the test. Yes, I recognize that excessive water drinking could be a ploy to avoid testing dirty, but then again, it could have been just what it appeared to be. Lots of water on a hot day. We’ll never know. She didn’t have an attorney, the judge didn’t tell her she should get one, and the prosecutor and p.o. wanted jail time, so that’s what she got. One-size-fits-all.
There’s another case where the prosecutor has admitted that the person found with the drugs was not the owner of the drugs, but since the person won’t snitch, the prosecutor is seeking maximum PRISON (not jail) time for this person. Could end up being serving 6 years for something this person isn’t guilty of. That’s what? $360,000 to house that person. That’s a lot of tax money that could be better spent on rehab programs. One-size-fits-all.
To answer Joe’s question on prison-overcrowding, I think we need to dispense with mandatory sentencing, INSIST that each case be treated on its own merits and publicize, publicize, publicize so that the justice system (judge, prosecutor, probation officer) are held accountable at the voting booth. That would, of course, require that we as tax-paying citizens and voters step up to the plate and take accountability for our actions (or inaction) which is also what I think we’re asking the criminal to do. Do as I say, not as I do?
We could also provide a mediation system. When someone is serving whatever sentence is imposed, they must feel free to report abuse. After the sentencing, the person loses his attorney usually. Any abuse by the system and there’s nowhere to turn. If a p.o. is riding someone too hard, they need an advocate of some sort to help them present their case. If a police officer is riding someone on probation, they need to have an advocate or mediator. The counselors at the rehab centers don’t have time for that kind of thing. If the judge has imposed too harsh a sentence, an appeal of that sentence goes back to the same judge. A mediation system could provide for an appeal to a different judge. Yes, it would cost money to implement something like that, but it has to be less than it costs to house a prisoner, I would think.
Good post “another guest”.
Thanks
Interesting post above. The writer presumes that we all want a one-size fits all solution. I don’t see that happening with suggestions here. I also don’t see that happening in the judicial system. The writer throws out a few examples of mistreatment by the system. The watered down UA example is absolutely ridiculous. I know alot of probation officers at the State and County level. Watered down UA’s don’t garner jail time. Please cite the case name where this happened. I would be very interested to see how this case was handled. Additionally, so what if the Prosecutor notes that even if we are to believe the defendant’s story that the drugs were not his/hers they were still found in possession of them. If the drugs aren’t theirs, then they can cooperate with police to identify the drug dealer. If not, then they get to take their lumps like anybody else. That is the law. By the way, I find it ironic that one would complain about one-size fits all justice system…since when is equal justice under the law a problem for anyone. Normally, people complain that everyone is not treated the same under similar circumstances. One can’t have it both ways.
As for the suggestion for a mediation system, mediation is not a workable solution. Mediation would interfere with checks and balances already in place. The Executive Branch controls the prisons and probation branches. The Courts impose sentences on offenders and the legislature sets the maximum penalties and controls budgets. Offenders sentenced to prison have access to report abuse to prison officials, including a special office to report prison rape and assaults. Probationers have access to grievance processes and often write letters to the Governor when they feel picked on. The Department of Correction has it’s own special office of internal investigations to examine these type of allegations. The Courts and attorneys also as a check on the system. Mediation is successful in civil cases as opposed to criminal cases because constitional responsbilities are not at issue or placed in harm. Additionally, mediators are not accountable to anyone. There is no state in this country that would hand mediators power over courts, parole boards, prison administration, or even the Governor.
Now, with that said, I think many of us agree on probationary sentences for first and second time drug and non-violent offenders. This is being done now and we are not seeing results because of recidivism and the insidiousness of meth and other prescription drugs like Oxycontin are driving addiction in a direction that is not currently being addressed by the current treatment modalities. The State of Idaho uses a model of treatment known as the Gorski Model. This model based on pro-social people that voluntarily seek out treatment. The model also is more focused treating alcohol vs. harder drugs. Obviously, the State is not targeting the population that they need to be targeting. I would estimate that over 85% of the population to be treated is anti-social and doesn’t seek out treatment on their own. We all expect treatment to assist offenders, but if we are not using the proper modality of treatment then we shouldn’t be scratching our heads wondering why the prisons are filling up. I would like the current situation to a doctor trying to treat a broken arm and leg and only paying attention to the arm and failing to address the leg. The patient will not get better. Prisoners and probationers won’t get better the way the current system is set up either.
The PR this morning reported that Idaho’s prison population “could surge by more than 5,500 in the next decade”. The cost is estimated around a billion dollars.
My first question on this is how they determined that number? Is it just a percentage of Idaho’s anticipated (non-incarcerated) population growth? Or is it derived from the rate of convictions and other factors they think will contribute to more people going to prison?
Is there anything we can do to reduce this number in a positive manner? By positive, I mean keeping some people out of prison who should not be there? Things like alternative sentencing for non-violent offenders and more drug treatment facilities?
I’ve heard about Joe Arpaio and I like his style. Once upon a time the ACLU did good deeds for those who were treated poorly and unfairly. Anymore, they just grab whatever they can get their hands on and do more harm than good. I hope Joe wins his battle. We could learn a lot from him.
The ACLU is filing a brief on behalf of Larry Craig and the predicament he put himself in. Can you believe it? The ACLU and Craig on the same side? What a joke!
…and the roller coaster goes through another loop, when will this ride end? Only Larry knows for sure…
I haven’t taken the time to read all the postings, but I do see where folks are looking for facts and statistics about our Idaho Department of Corrections.
Go to: http://www.idoc.idaho.gov/
Scroll down a bit and watch on the right side for “Annual Reports”. There are other reports out there as well. IDOC is doing a fantastic job of developing and analyzing trends and future needs.
About four months ago, I was invited to be a part of an ongoing discussion between the Idaho Sheriff’s Association and the Idaho Department of Corrections, working to find new solutions. I am very encouraged with our progress. These meetings will likely continue through 2008.
Some interesting dynamics are occuring in our Idaho prison system. Not only is our prison population growing, but the acuity of the inmates is changing as well. Yep, it’s getting worse! You might recall a recent PR article about our prison system having to change a group of cells into one-person cells due to gang problems. This just adds to the population problem, and likelihood that more inmates will be housed out-of-state in the foreseeable future. The female population is growing faster than the male population. What a sad state of affairs…
I see some postings about the JoAn Wood project. This project is on course to begin sometime in December. If anyone is interested in knowing more about this project, I’d be happy to post some information. I am finalizing an 18-20 minute powerpoint presentation on this project and will be taking it out to civic groups, clubs, businesses, and basically anyone will give me the time to tell about this exciting project. If you know of a group that would like to know more about the JoAn Wood Project, contact me at our Bonneville County Sheriff’s Office for more information.
Bonneville County is on the cusp of creating the next major step in new solutions for drug treatment in County Jails. Our County Commissioners deserve a big “thank you” for taking on this HUGE project. Drug addiction is not a partisan issue. Regardless of opinions on other issues, our Commissioners have taken this project on with great conviction; it’s the right thing to do.
For now,
That sounds very informative. When you finish, I invite you to publish the synapses of your presentation as an article here (that idea of giving you the time to tell us about this project).
What kind of proposals has your group kicked around to reduce the prison population?
I’ve seen many stories lately cropping up lately on Digg of law enforcement officers taking public stands against the ongoing Drug War, and Ron Paul has stated he will end it. Is that drastic change being considered by those folks?
Joe:
Please forgive my ignorance. Can you direct me the the “Digg” site? I’d like to read up on what the officers think is wrong with the war on drugs. I have not heard about this.
I’ll get back later on your other questions.
What is your stand with the war on drugs Bud? If you don’t mind me asking.
Personally, I think it’s a losing battle. We’re packing our prisons with drug users, and 1st time drug offenders, non-violent drug offenders, etc. when we need to be utilizing more counseling, detox programs, more classes to treat addiction, etc.
Aren’t the majority of our prisons filled with drug related crimes? It’s obvious we’re losing the war on drugs and a different approach needs to be implemented. What are your thoughts?
Absolutely, digg.com, my favorite website after my own. The idea is anyone can post a link to any article out on the web, then the site visitors “digg” it if they think it’s worthwhile news, once a story gets enough “diggs” it reaches the front page. This way dumb folks like me who don’t have time to read everything can just scan the front page and find the most interesting articles. Some are from mainstream news (funny how some stories are on digg’s front page a day or two before the MSM catch it), but many are great stories that our MSM do not report on.
The one I was talking about was http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/NH_Cop_To_McCain_Drug_War_Blows
Joe: Thank you for the website. This is the first site I have participated in; I have much to learn. Regards,
CR67: That’s an interesting question. My following comments are mine, and mine alone. They have no connection to our Sheriff’s Office. With that said…
First, there is much shortsightedness in most all levels of government. Politicians want to get reelected. They tend to do what is popular, and will get them reelected. Most jump on an existing bandwagon; few build their own. Stay with me, I’m building up to my point.
When former President Clinton passed legislation to put 100,000 more cops on the streets, he created a no-lose deal for politicians. “See, I’m in favor of reducing crime!”. It’s popular to hire cops, and to give people the perception of well-being. The states, counties and cities were left to fend for themselves to build new jails and prisons to hold all the additonal criminals arrested, and to hire the additional judges – prosecutors – public defenders – court staff and secretaries to prosecute all the additional criminals. Politicians aren’t going to get more votes for building jails and prisons. While it sounds great to put more cops on the street, and both Idaho Falls Police and Bonneville County Sheriff got some additional officers on the COPS grants, Congress really hurt the state and local governments. My point is coming soon…
Today, there are grants available to state prison systems to deliver “Residential Substance Abuse Treatment”. There are some other treatment type programs available to states, but not to local county jails. My point here – you must be convicted of enough felony crimes to actually be sent to prison before you get treatment. There’s something wrong with this picture! In Idaho, once you have received treatment in the prison system and are released, there is limited, or no, treatment followup available. And most all felons returning to their respective communities cannot afford to pay for treatment. Is it a wonder recidivism is high? We have a system structured for failure.
County governments cannot afford to provide the level of treatment necessary to make lasting behavioral changes. We taxpayers feel overburdened right now! And, you might say that in Idaho, Counties are financially motivated to have offenders convicted of felonies, instead of misdemeanors, so they get passed on to the state prison system.
I believe the federal funding for the “war on drugs” is flawed based on desired outcomes. I’ve never read what the mission statement for this “war” is, nor the intended performance measures. When will we know we are winning?
When this country goes to war, a real war, we set up plans to help the victims of the war; the displaced citizens, the burned out businesses, the children. The war on drugs makes no provision for its victims. Congress has made no provision to assist in building county jails to house first time and non-violent offenders, to keep them engaged in their community and to get treatment. Congress makes no provision for hiring more misdemeanor (County) probation officers to provide intense supervision for misdemeanants. And, the greatest tragedy of all, there is no funding to treat addictions in our county jails.
So, in summary to your question, I’m not impressed with the outcomes of the war on drugs to date.
Now, fast forward to Bonneville County. We hope to be signing the final grant documents for a new – exciting – challenging – leading edge County Jail-based drug treatment program in the next week to ten days. Watch for a media release on this.
Our Idaho Dept. of Corrections (IDOC) has leadership that is aggressively seeking new solutions to their burgeoning population. Someone much higher up the food chain than me must have had a revelation, and asked, “Where do all the felony substance abuse inmates come from?” From Counties!! Most all had misdemeanor convictions before being sentenced on a felony charge. Well, if we can keep more misdemeanant offenders from becoming felons, we might just slow down the number of felons sentenced to prison! Dang, what a novel idea! But it gets better. Someone decided that to make this happen, we’re going to have to change the way we do business. Maybe we should partner with a county jail and try something new. YES YES YES!!!
Our “Pilot Project” with the Department of Health and Welfare and IDOC will treat persons with substance abuse and mental health disorders in our Bonneville County Jail. We will be treating felons in an attmept to keep them out of prison, and misdemeanor offenders – trying to keep them from becoming felons. We will keep them engaged in our community, work to get them employment once released, and we have funding for additional probation officers to provide the necessary intense supervision.
We’ve built the opportunity for “failure” into our system. If an offender has a relapse, we move him/her back into custody for more treatment, or to a number of alternatives for housing and treatment. We have a continuum of care planned, with a continuum of housing options available.
One requirement we have in our project is that we must manualize our project as we develop and refine it so that it can be replcated in the other six judicial districts in Idaho.
I cannot think of a more exciting project I’ve worked on in many years. Our County and State aren’t waiting for Congress to figure out their failures; we’re moving forward now…it’s the right thing to do.
Sorry for such a long post; I’m long-winded.
Regards,
Thanks for your reply Bud. It’s great to hear that changes are coming our way regarding this issue. Excellent post!
Well, I see that Wedding Crasher Kim Cooper got sentenced to probation. What a joke. She has multiple felonies and misdemeanor thefts on her record and this is what Judge Joel Tingy handed down. The victim (groom) in this case was not pleased and feared that she will be back in the community to do it again. He is probably right. She has proven that she has no respect for people’s property and she has no respect for her children either—she had them come along and help her steal.
While it is probably not relevant to her theft spree….she still has that little boys death that was in her daycare to deal with as well. While they don’t appear to be charging her on that one, she still has the other wedding theft in Jefferson County to answer for. I hope that Judge Anderson does what Judge Tingey won’t—send her to prison for awhile….not the measley 45 days work release so she can continue to work at McDonald’s.
Seems to me that it would do the community better as well as afford for her ‘rehabilitation’ to get sent to prison for awhile and give her some true consequences to her behaviors. All these probation sentences she racked up in Idaho and Wyoming and she is still committing crime. Just goes to show that the system goes to extreme lengths to keep people out of the joint….even when they deserve to be there. Watch out for the Honorable Joel Tingy….he is alot like our good buddy Judge Brent Moss that let sex offender Mike Neff off easy with a 120 day rider to Cottonwood for evaluation.
This begs the question again–do we need mandatory minimums for repeat offenders that judges, prosecutors and defense counsel cannot ignore?
I read that this morning and thought, “what a clown”, especially the part where she dug into the wedding cake before the bride and groom did!
That was messed up about telling her daughter to steal the gift cards. Despite the low sentence, I think this is one of those times that she will be punished harsher in the community because everyone knows the name Kim Cooper. I cannot imagine who will hire her given her wild lies and absurd history here.
I think the sentence fit the crime. 45 days in county jail and 4 years probation is about right for the type of crime she committed. Like Joe pointed out, everybody and their Grandma knows Kim Cooper as she’s been on the national news. Not to mention our local news has been beating this story like a dead horse, so you’d have to have been hiding under a rock not to know about this girl. If she screws up on probation, I’m sure she’ll do some prison time. Plus she’s still got that other charge to contend with, so I think shes more than paying for her crime through all the public humiliation.
In regards to the Joann Wood Pilot project.
My husband has suffered from bipolar since he was at least 14 years old. He has complulsive problems with stealing while on his manic ups. I met Shane two years ago. He was very direct and forward about being a thief and being in prison. I was not looking for that bad boy criminal. No I had always pitcured your typical man with a good job, without a record. He did find God in Prison. Unlike so many others he never quite following God. I watched this man work hard to provide for us, fight through depression, mania, and depression. During an episode of mania in 2007 my husband while not just manic but delusion started on a theiving spree. It started out sunday night. He stole a kids bike, two shovels, one ladder, and some clothing. He also huffed gas, smoked marijuana, began drinking energy drinks, alcohol and well it was a little wild. These changes began building for at least a month or longer. But a dramatic shift in not just his action but his entire being began June 18, 2007. By June 24th he had started his theiving spree. On monday he went to work they sent him home because of his apparent disrubtive behavior. He didn’t come home no he went stealing. Very few items was even logical to steal. My husband was arrested Tuesday the 26th of June. Yes his spree only lasted less then 48 hour. But this 48 hour was complete horifying hell. To his family, to society, to himself. The very thought that this was not the first time for Shane came about 6 weeks after the incident. He was guilt stricken. He confessed he said there is something wrong with him and he just wants it to stop. He is tired and don’t know why he can’t quite being a no good piece of S@@T. Believe me the six weeks before he confessed was something hopefully never to be repeated. I didn’t end there. No he then went directly south into a deep long hard depression. This depression has lasted for month. Now almost 7 month. He has tried to be good. And when under sound mind and judgement did a good job. You must know my husband has been in prison for 14 years. All but about 30 month of his entire life due to his Bipolar disorder and crimes related to it.
In december while very depressed he decided to take the deal the prosicutor offered. He knew he did it, he feels horrible that he can do those things, I have seen him sit in the corner and cry and beg God to help him. That he is sorry.
I tell you what I survive this year of watching him suffer. The torment of the disease and him begging for someone to help him.
So on his sentencing date I find out that my suspitions were true that he was bipolar. I was not really a question in my head. I watched him up, down and out control.
So I looked for him some help. He needed treatment. The jail realized his need for treatment. I found the mental health court. I got an application. He resieved meds from the doctor in jail.
Then comes the Joann Wood Piolet Project. What a God send I thought after some research. A program that will keep him in a structured program. Adressing his criminal thinking, his mental illness, drug, family, and slowly introducing him back into society. As a productive member of society. I was long and horrible wait to know if he got in. He is non violent, very willing, and really is plain sick and tired of being the way he is.
He did get excepted Monday Feb 10, 2008 we went in front of the Judge on a motion to reconsider sentencing, he was going and will next week refuse My husband the mental help he so desprateley needs, the chance for his family to mend itself, and the programming to aquire the skills to be a good and productive member of society. In stead he will choose to send him to prison again. He has not recieved any treatment in the 14 years that he has been in there. No programming and not from lack of effort. They just always turned him down. Excuses like to much time left, not enough time left, no drug charges, on and on. The board over seeing this pilot project can see his need, disire, and his chance for needed treatment.
The Judge even stated both time we were infront of him that the court has tried everything. THEY HAVE TRIED NOTHING BUT TO WARE HOUSE HIM. WITH NO TREATMENT. NO MENTAL HEALTH SCREENING. HE HAS ALMOST SEREVED A LIFE SENTENCE FOR BEING SICK. He did not choose to be ill. I don’t understand why he can’t have the help he needs. He knows he is a criminal and just wants to be a GOOD Person. I wish he could of had this chance.. good luck to all the families to get this chance at rebuilding their shattered families with this program.
I don’t even want to touch this one. But I would like to know, how a woman can enter into marriage with man like this KNOWING his background? Knowing that he’s a thief. Knowing he has a drug problem and knowing he has medical problems? Instead of making the most out of your life and making something of yourself, you’ve spending the best years of your life (& probably many more to come) taking care of somebody else and their problems, addictions and destructive behavior. Knowing all of this before you got married, did you actually believe you could have a happy normal life together, knowing that he’s a thief, drug addict and has mental problems? Or because he said he “found God”, you thought he would change?
Amazing story….good luck with all that.
KIDK reports that Idaho is sending 240 more prisoners out of state, this time to Oklahoma.
http://www.kidk.com/news/local/16858456.html
They are doing this because there is no room in Idaho to hold these prisoners. The Oklahoma prison is privately run. By this summer a total of 733 inmates (almost ten percent of Idaho’s 7,400 inmates) will be out of state, costing us $15 million a year.
This seems like market opportunity lost in Idaho! Why isn’t someone building a private prison(s) to house a few hundred inmates? Why can’t we keep that money in Idaho?
I am so guilty of beating a dead horse on various subjects, but are we overcrowded due to the mandatory drug sentencing?
I’d like to see, what are the crimes that our prisoners are serving time for? And those that are recidivist, what relationship is their current crime to the one(s) that got them there, before?
And, if those crimes are drug related, how many of them are user related vs selling/manufacturing related?
I’m also thinking, $15 million a year, is that even worth someone’s time to build facilities and staff them? We’d have to build something big enough to take in OTHER states’ overflows, to make it worth someone’s time.
Good point, so you have to consider the trends. We appear to have trends towards more prisoners and longer sentences.
The problem is two fold. One is that we are imprisoning a lot of non violent offenders. Particularly drug users. I’ve got no problem locking up the druggies who commit violent crimes in the process but we shouldn’t be putting people in prison for simple possession.
The other problem is that over the last 10-15 years Idaho’s population has boomed as we are one of the fastest growing states in the country. More people also means more people committing crimes. But our prisons haven’t grown to match.
Excellent point Diablo. Idaho’s population has been growing substantially. We have been in the top five of population gain in the last 5 years. The influx of people has brought some good and some bad apples into the mix.
As for Nemisis question about mandatory minimums. I spoke to a friend in the Prosecutor’s Office here in Bonneville County. Mandatory minimum cases are not filed very often. When they are, the prosecutor uses it as a tool to get the guy to agree to plead to a lesser offense, like Delivery–which does not have a mandatory minimum. Thus, there are not many people serving mandatory minimum sentences for drugs. Simple possession does not usually net a prison sentence in our area at least unless the guy has a serious felony record. Probation is almost always used out of the gate. Revocations of probation on Possession of Controlled Substance cases do occur, but only after many local options are tried out. Additionally, most revocations of probation put the person in Cottonwood for evaluation and treatment for at least 120 days. Over 90% come back on probation to give it the ole college try again and it starts all over again….treatment and other community sanctions as needed to gain compliance. If all that fails, then the offender is sent packing for a prison stint. Average possession sentences in Bonneville County run 2 years.
Ah, thanks Mike for the info. But I’m really saddened by the idea that possession averages a 2 year sentence. I know it’s illegal, I get it that you shouldn’t use (and I do not) but it just seems that we have our priorities flipflopped here…
We’re giving drug users time, and child molesters probation. Both tend to be addicted to their behaviors, one is mostly doing it to himself, while the other is victimizing a vulnerable individual.
I realize it’s not that simple but it sure feels like as a society we’re more outraged by John the Pot Head than by Chester the molester.
“We’re giving drug users time, and child molesters probation.”
Bingo, there’s a real problem with our priorities.
If the prison can only hold one more person, would you rather send the drug user or the child molester to prison?
Excellent point guys! I’m blown away by the amount of time (or rather the lack thereof) that child molestors and/or sexual predators get in this state! It’s pretty sad, especially in comparrison to drug users.
HEY POST REGISTER REPORTERS:
Since you sometimes peruse this sight. How about an expose of our local judges showing who is soft on child molestors. I know your a bit sensitive about the topic given the whole Boy Scout mess but you were in the right then and you would be in right now if you did a story on this. Right now the perception is that Tingey is soft on child molestors. If true that would make a great story and if not true it would still make a great story.
I concur. Any investigative reporters out there, how common are the sentences being given in our area when measured against the other areas of the country?
Are they more lenient? Are they more harsh? Is there a difference between sentences given for these crimes in urban vs rural areas?
Do we have more arrests/prosecutions in this area, per capita? Or fewer?
Do the judges in question, Tingey and Moss, really give lighter sentences than others in this area? Or are we just hearing about more of them? Do some judges get more of these kinds of cases than others?
Many of these things could be researched and a great series written.