Guns and Chocolate Chip Cookies: The Answer to America’s Problems?

Oh, I forgot to add the disclaimer: Owning a firearm is a serious responsibility (kind of like owning a car or a sharp kitchen knife). With a firearm you must be well trained and know how to handle it safely. You must also be mentally prepared to use it if you need to. In an emergency, only use the firearm as a last resort to protect your life or the life of another. Move yourself and your family into as safe a position as possible and call 911. Tell the dispatcher that you are armed, so that he/she can pass this information on to responding Officers.

Actually what that 21 ft rule shows is that a guy with a knife will get to you before you can draw and fire. What happens next who knows? Maybe you get stabbed or cut but at that point I’d rather have a gun than a knife of my own since I can either get off a point blank shot or bludgeon the guy with the gun.

Thanks Post number 4. God in the Schools… Thats what I meant when I said that we cannot take the medicine that can cure us. Many people take issue with God in the schools. The need to seperate Church from State. When the first shots rang out, I wonder how many people in Virginia dropped to their knees and started praying to a God who, 10 minutes earlier was not welcome in that school? I bet there were many. I never said it was easy. I never even said it was possible. But that is what must happen if we want to impact the problem. He created the world, and up until we started kicking him around in this country, he blessed us as the greatest Nation in the world, and gave our schools more protection than we seem to have today — since we booted him out.

This attitude towards God seems more emblazened(accepted negativity)than even ten-fifteen years ago this may be media,or worse yet breakdown of society if no God then no consequences for actions or moral degradation.

We’re not really supposed to talk about religion on this site (as per Joe’s request) but maybe “God” in general is okay.

Here’s the thing about “God” - people have done a lot of stupid things in “his” name, so it’s REALLY hard for some of us to wrap our heads around the idea that we need MORE moral hand-holding.

I say - keep God out of schools and teach ideals like compassion, respect, and dignity. These virtues can be EASILY applied to every faith out there.

A lack of “God” isn’t our problem here. As a point of evidence, our current leader (GWB) is quite “God-fearing”, but that doesn’t stop him from declaring “God is on our side” whilst we wage war against others who are not like us.

Fighting hatred by applying hatred to the situation - what would “God” think of that?

I get tired of people saying we need more “God”. I disagree. I think we need more COMPASSION.

Excellent article.

The right to have guns and bear arms is a fascinating concept in this country. The 2nd amendment was not only put there to give us the right to protect ourselves and out property from individual criminals, but also to protect ourselves from an errant government. That is a fascinating concept to ponder when you hear about all these new gun control laws being passed in our country. It is also interesting to think about the demonization of the Militia.

I grew up around here and have always been around guns. They have never intimidated me and they are just part of our heritage and culture. There is a joke around my circle of friends right now that you know you are in Idaho when even the Democrats have guns.

As far as using a gun for protection, they really do work. The funny thing is that actually firing the gun in a defensive situation is very rare. Most of the time just brandishing it is enough to put you in control of the situation.

Speaking of gun defense http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55309

[3 paragraph comment about religion deleted by site admin, it was one of the hardest things I ever had to do, but religious discussion has essentially been banned at IFz. We have tried it and there is never healthy resolution.

Please go to http://religiondebates.blogspot.com for religious discussions.]

Strength is an ATTITUDE. And a basic law of nature — The predator will search out the weak. The ones who represnt the “path of least resistance.” The ones who cannot defend themselves. Climb through my bedroom window tonight with a knife between your teeth and see what happens.

Rich, Interesting questions. I will try to address a couple as best I can… You said
“I find it mildly intriguing that you keep inviting criminals to ‘climb into your window.” I assume it is so you can ‘prove’ that you are willing to shoot an intruder.” Well Rich, A very poor assumption on your part. You see, I am simply trying to convey an ATTITUDE that more Americans need to have when it comes to home and self defense. An ATTITUDE that will help us all take care of ourselves rather than just sitting around waiting for our Government to take care of us. Its an ATTITUDE of survival. An ATTITUDE that should carry with it a well balanced and generous portion of common sense. Do I lock windows and doors? Yes, When it is prudent. Do I take measures to avoid any confrontation when possible? Absolutely. Do I want to prove to Rich that I can kill if I must? Frankly I don’t care what Rich thinks. Am I prepared if someone does try to harm my family. Most certainly. Next, Anyone who would say “I assume it is so you can ‘prove’ that you are willing to shoot an intruder” obviously does not know me and has actually offended me more than I am sure he meant to. My post has much to say about what a great responsibility owning a gun is. It talks much about the training one should have. It mentions several times the need to be mentally prepared to use the gun to defend a life. All very well balanced comments from a well adjusted US Vertran and Police Officer.
You also said “I doubt that most people could really handle it.” Thanks Rich. You have made the overall point of my post better than I actually did. Thank you. That, my friend is the problem! We have lost the ability to take care of ourselves. Thats kind of what I was trying to say. Most people can’t do it. Just like most people can’t jog 3 miles or run up 7 flights of stairs. Its true… Americans are getting fat and lazy. That doesn’t mean that we should not encourage a change of ATTITUDE when it come to physical activity. Perhaps more people SHOULD be able to jog 3 miles! Next you asked “could you really pull the trigger and take someone’s life?” This one was the most interesting of all. My mind races with responses to this one. Let me just say this: Yes. If I had no other choice, and it had to be done in defense of me, my family or my friend Rich Ronin, yes I would. Would I want to? no. Would I enjoy it? Certainly not. Would I rather die myself — or see my new friend Rich Ronin die because I couldn’t bring myself to pull the trigger? No. Lastly, What did I do to secure my firearms when my children were young? Well, I kept the hnting rifles and most all handguns locked in a gun safe. I kept one handgun (my work gun) in the top of my closet. It was in a security holsetr that involved some arm strenghth and a certain “twist” to get the gun out of the holster. I also removed the bullet from the chamber, but kept the magazine loaded. When the kids were very young, they were not strong enough to pull the slide back — even with two hands. As they got older, (high school) they had been out to the shooting range and had learned how to shoot and handle a firearm well. The gun was still always up in the closet, but they had been taught not to touch it. By the time they were in high school and I trusted then with the car, I figured I could trust them with a gun in my bedroom closet. Just as my Father did with me, and his Father did with him. In regards to your detail on studies and statistics; I predicted that one too. I am not talking about everyone in the US when I prepare to keep my home safe. You worry about everyone — and statistics and I will worry about me and mine. I am talking about me and my family. What are the statistics in regards to children killed every year in car accidents? Well what do in an effort to make those very high numbers drop? We make safer cars, Require training. enforce the laws that apply. No where in my comments have I recommended anything less for firearms.

I understand and appreciate the attitude adjusting things brought up.

Unfortunately, we cannot ignore the reality of those statistics indicating many home gun owners actually cause themselves more harm than safety.

How to improve that?

Rich, regarding post #18… right on! More points that I was trying to make — hit right on the head! 1st. you said “I feel like we have a responsibility as citizens (or as spiritual/religous people) to be concerned with the welfare of our fellow man.” Me too! Thats why I chose the work that I did — and thats why I have said we should all be prepared to defend ourselves and others (The mall shooters?) 2nd. You said: ” Guns have their place, even in my home. But guns do nothing to address the deeper societal problems that lead to gun violence.” Beutiful! Chocolate Chip Cookies (AKA a parent that stays home to nurture the child) and other suggestions were made to do just that! 3rd: “Besides, crime rates in I.F. are very low.” Funny thing. Much of this site talks about the growth rate of IF — the building boom, the increased traffic, etc. Do you see where I am going with that? What makes you think the crime rate will stay low? And once again — this attitude that I speak of may not be required to help YOU. But exactly what skills will be needed for your grandchildren to survive? Where will they live? What will their crime rate be? What ATTITUDE do you want to send down the line to them when it comes to self defense and being prepared? Some in the area teach their children to gather and store massive quantities of food for an emergency — to be prepared. Yet not so much attention is paid to being prepared for that emergency in other ways. Just food for thought. I don’t expect everyone to agree. But think about this… we live in a violent world. Its hard to turn out children who are well prepared — mentally tough, and ready to defend themselves and our country, yet have compassion and are capable of loving and caring. It takes serious effort. Tough, independant kids who have compassion yet can stand up and take care of themselves. And why is that so important? We teach our children to love and be kind and not do ANYTHING — EVER — to hurt another humane being.” No toy guns, no hitting! Now you be nice — all ok. But then when the kid turns 18, Uncle SAM gives him a little piece of paper and tells him to get on a plane. He sends the Kid to the other side of the Ocean, and gives the kid a gun. He tells the kid — “Go out and kill all of the people who don’t look like you. Now I am not saying that this is right. I am not saying that any given war is where we should be. I am saying that times have come in history when our young men were called upon to fight (and die) for this country. Thats whay stopped Hitler. It was a generation of heros. A generation who had a strong ATTITUDE about how to protect themselves and this great Country. We turn our children loose when they become adults. We turn them out into a literal jungle. There are SO MANY things that we must teach them. Which, my friends, is what I have been trying to say all along.

Oops! If I’ve conveyed I want any gun control, please accept my sincere support of gun rights.

The only gun controls I support are ridiculous firepower (machine guns and extremely large caliber should not be in consumer markets) and restricting guns from criminally violent or insane people.

No, I totally support the right to bear arms.

I am just concerned about the overwhelming statistics showing so many gun owners actually bring harm to themselves.

With the rights come the responsibilities.

I AM a dem who owns guns!

So yes it’s true - even democats in Idaho own guns! It’s the reverse of where I come from (California) where they say “Even the Republicans are liberal-inclined”. Right on Arnold! He’s a Republican I respect, his politics really aren’t as narcissistic as many Republicans are.

As for violent books and video games - although I do think such things create desensitation in kids, I don’t think that’s so much where the violent outbursts and deadly force comes from.

I go to my original assertion and declare again that it’s a general LACK OF COMPASSION that is largely @ fault here - and by fault I mean a literal “fault” of sorts. A “break” in how we (as a society) have learned to behave and interact with others.

There was an interview on the Ed Schultz Radio Show last week - a young woman who had been in the Columbine shootings, she was 16 @ the time, is now 24, and she said it succinctly - she said EXACTLY what I believe.

She said - “People have forgotten how to communicate with one another”.

THIS - I believe - is @ the heart of the matter. We have, in the pat several generations, raised kids to be increasingly self-centered (narcissistic, verging on sociopathic). As these kids develop into an adult mindset their thinking lacks reasonable compassion - and in its place resides unhealthy amounts of self-centeredness.

Example - any of us who watched tv as kids were implored to NEED X cereal and Y toy and Z clothing label. As we got older X and Y and Z became more adult things - like cars, homes with certain ameneties, and vacations to far away locations.

My point is this, and yeah I think I’m right. Guns are not the problem, lack of Somebody’s morality is not the problem, video games are not the problem. These are all symptoms of the problem. The PROBLEM is - we have lost the desire to teach compassion - and we are now a society of compassion-dysfunctional people (just look @ how we treat the world around us if you want evidence of the lack of compassion).

If we want young people to stop and think long and hard before they attack with a violent weapon - then let’s start raising our kids to THINK long and hard before they attack @ ALL. Let’s teach our kids to understand another’s point of view, to understand the guy next door’s point of view, the POV of the old woman in the nursing home, the young child in day care, the stranger who is standing next to us in line @ the store.

Let’s go further than that - why not? Let’s DARE to care. Let’s take into account the POV of the rain forest and all the creatures who live there. Let’s take into account the families in Middle Eastern countries who can’t go a more than a few days without violence touching them in some way.
Let’s take into account the great barrier reef that is slowly being choked to death by toxic overload. Let’s - I DARE to say it - take into account the gray wolf, who is simply doing what a wolf DOES (eating) and it just so happens we and they have crossed each other’s paths in an iritating way.

Rather than continuing to create more “us against them” thinking (and YES that does include “our religion against theirs” - but it also includes thousands of other divisive thoughts and actions) why don’t we create inclusion, care, compassion?

This might not “end” violent attacks, but it could. It will absolutely discourage a lot of it because the more a person is able to empathise / feel compassion - the less able that person is to harm with careless abandon.

I think I’m right on this. More control isn’t the answer. More compassion is. It’s just too damned bad our society has no idea how to understand what that means.

Joe -

GREAT reply!

I can speak personally for the good Big Sisters does - I was a Big Sister when I lived in Los Angeles County and would STILL be a Big Sister if the county I live in now provided funds for it - but apparently there is too little need here. (Which is a good thing.)

The thing about being a Big Sis / Bro is that you get the chance to take a kid’s perceptions and help that kid come to his / her own conclusions - and believe it or not - KIDS are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS wiser in a fundamental way than adults are.

Why? Maybe because they aren’t as corrupted yet. I don’t know.

Neighborhood Block Parties and Watch is a great plan too. When I lived in Los Angeles (in town - I now live in the country) we did a block party every year - and yes we had Neighborhood Watch meetings whereby we would allocate ideas - such as - when Mr. and Mrs. Jones are out of town for a visit, they tell us about it. When John and Jane Doe move into the neighborhood they are immediately embraced and encouraged to join.

Stuff like that.

I think you are COMPLETELY right about sharing time and space with others rather than locking ourselves AWAY from others. You have made my point for me in a way I just couldn’t verbalize.

Join with one another, understand one another, become a community.

THIS - I think - is one of the basic ways to keep harm from entering our lives by way of violence.

IExample - let’s just say we in the USA could be friends with those in Iraq. Let’s say our kids hung out together, our families sat next to each other in restaurants. If we and they were kind and compassionate toward each other rather than blaming and shaming of each other - how far do you REALLY think this war would have gotten?

Joe’s right. Find a group to join. I have groups I am currently part of - I volunteer to do litter clean-up, I am part of another environmental group, I am a member of a few other groups that meet regularly (most are environmental). It helps to generate community - this way one does not feel so ALONE. (A big problem with Cho was he felt alone and misunderstood.)

Become part of each other’s lives - enjoy rather than repel yourself from differences.

I appreciate your experiences, they are very profound.

I do not think I have done enough to make my community secure. I’ve served in the guard in the past, I’ve helped friends and family secure their computers against attacks, I’ve started this website to facilitate communications outside of normal channels, but I honestly do not think I have done enough.

I wish there was more I did, I’ll try to think of other things. I’m not being sarcastic, I really do wish I did more.

One wonders what the results might have been at V-Tech had a few of the faculty been armed. Allowing qualified teachers at our universities and public schools to carry fire-arms might not be such a bad idea. It took law enforcement a very long time to summon the courage to enter the building at Columbine. The school staff could certainly have responded much more quickly had they been armed.

[paragraph about religious stuff edited by site admin, please take religious discussions over to that new site]

Maybe this is a thing we can do here, now, on this forum.

Each of us can look @ our particular situations, lifestyles, etc., and determine one thing we can do - small or large it doesn’t mater which - to improve safety and / or community compassion.

If you already do something - wonderful! - but let’s all do a little bit more. I firmly believe that we can’t stop hatred and violence by creating more of it. I think we stop hatred and violence by affirming care and compassion.

I will start by saying that from this day forward I will no longer flip the bird or give other gestures / looks of frustration to people who seriously annoy the you-know-what out of me when I’m driving. That is easily my biggest “uncompassionate” behavior.

If we start by doing something small and simple and personal and even challenging (trust me - not reacting to annoying drivers is a HUGE challenge for some of us) we may find that larger acts of compassion come easier.

Who’s willing to give this a try?

Joe -

I think I’ve been kissed by your buddy then!

Three was a SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW driver (the kind who doesn’t comprehend “traffic flow”) who I middle finger saluted once (this is several years ago) and he blew a kiss back @ me.

Quite a fetching looking guy, frankly. And all this time I just thought he was flirting!

Dang.

I don’t often get glared @ or otherwise gesticulated @ while driving. I’m one of those “California” drivers who happens to be REALLY good @ the skill - really. Many complain about Cali drivers but the truth is, most of us from congested areas HAVE HAD to learn excellent driving skills.

You can’t fare well on the 405 or 110 freeways during one of those blissful moments when there isn’t backlogging - when EVERYBODY wants to go 90 mph to make up for the days and months of crawling @ 10 mph - and they are all doing it within 6 inches from each others’ bumpers.

California people DO know how to drive well, I think those who say otherwise are just jealous, or they just don’t “get” city driving.

FeelinLucky wrote -

I will try to really reach out to people when I say something wrong, and sincerely apologize to them – taking full responsibility for what I have said. Lets see if they are big enough to reach back and accept, with a kind word of forgiveness. ;o)

I write -

My advice (if you should care to consider it) is - don’t count on it!

I don’t mean that in a pessimistic way, but rather in a “do it for yourself” way. In other words - if you step up to the plate, do what in your heart and soul feels right, best, conscientious - then you have done your part toward offering to broaden the compassion spectrum.

Whether the other person is “big enough” to see it or not doesn’t matter. What does is that YOU are big enough to offer it. On the flip side - those who ARE big enough to see the kindness offered by others will grace their own lives with a little bit more positivity, so it’s a gift one may give oneself if one so chooses.

FeelinLucky, I used to know a guy who (to this day he is still doing this from what I hear) can take the most benign comment and twist it around into something hostile and hateful. In EVERY case I know of when he did this - it would have been JUST as easy to take the benign comment as kind and considerate. But he rarely EVER focuses on the positive - it’s almost unilaterally the negative.

I also know anotehr man who does just the opposite, he sees benign comments as compliments or @ the very least kindness. His life is rich, warm, full of caring friends and plenty of positive people. The other guy - he loses all his kind friends (including me), the people who love him, care about him - they all eventually go away (or are pushed away by his mean-spirited accusations). His life is miserable, he ALWAYS looks angry, always sees how people “disrespect” him - even cashiers in grocery stores!

My point is - be compassionate. Will you always receive it back? No. No way. It doesn’t work like that. But you WILL get it back more than you will by being uncompassionate. And slowly but surely if everybody were to behave a little more compassionately every day, every week, every year - maybe in a relatively short timewe could achieve a better balance - where cookies are valued more than handguns.

Mr vandal post 21 needs edited as well>

“…never have we in our society been able to eradicate something by making it illegal. That doesn’t work. We have tried it with alcohol – didn’t work. Right now we have great “Cocaine Control” yet we really have no “control” over cocaine at all. We also have some pretty robust “Marijuana Control” in the United States. Guess what? Every High School in Idaho Falls who wants some can get it. Easy. … Every single US President since Kennedy has announced an “Official” War on Drugs. Guess what. We are losing. And after 40 years of fighting this little war of ours, I believe it’s now safe to say the war is over. We lost. We are just trying to keep a little “battle” going because we really do not know what else to do, and we can’t give up completely.”

I agree completely with this viewpoint!

I read the other day a study suggesting we could recoup $10 billion ANNUALLY by legalizing drugs, licensing them for corporate production and sales, and instead focusing on health care treatment of addicts. It was something like $3 billion saved in police and court efforts of drug interdictions, and $7 billion saved in prison sentences.

I don’t think the study even took into account the savings we would have in reduced crime.

This article said great things about reforming our American attitudes, and I think we need to make some drastic changes to jumpstart those reformed attitudes.

For one, we need to stop waging “war” on things we cannot win. That creates an attitude that we are always on the defense, and we are never winning. How can we generate positive national attitudes if we always feel we are losing?

What do you think of this aspect?

I think we should let all of the drug related prisoners go. And see if they would do better on treatment.

Or we could legalize Marijuana,cocaine, and totaly ban the use of meth period

And back to the subject about guns. Why have people in our country decided to lay down the right to have guns so criminals can waltz right into any establishment and kill anyone they wish?

I definatly will never stop packing a gun or owning one if our government said we can’t have guns anymore. I would rather sit in prison.

If they out law guns in America I will be the first one to tell them all off.

One fact is guns do save lives.

Another fact is people kill people guns do not.

If they ban guns all together then people will always find guns somewhere else or a different weapon.

I know how to make all kinds of interesting things that can be used as a weapons.

I love it when you see a gun hater on the news saying “guns kill and guns should be banned blah blah blah” and a few weeks later they are crying because someone rapped his wife and daughter infront of him using a knife as a weapon. If he owned a gun he could have stopped the person. Or someone is at the mall and they have always hated guns and never wanted us to have them in our posession. Some guy walks in with a gun and starts shooting everyone. The gun hater gets on thier knees and cries please let it stop let the gun man not see me. And all of a sudden BOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!! its all over like they wished. Some off duty cop shoots the guy shooting all the people in the mall saving everyone else from becoming a dead consumer. Or a guy with a consealed weapons permit pulls a gun out and the cop shoots him because he thought he was the shooter.

My point is. Life can change into a bad situatin real fast. I am glad I have a gun with me at all times incase it does. Death only has to find you once. Wouldnt it be nice to shoot back? And atleast try to live?

I feel sorry for gun haters. They are like the people we protected in world war 1 and 2 from death. They didnt want guns so an enemy decided to waltz on in with guns and take it over.

I hope all americans wake up and realize this world has always been a bad place. Every generation thinks they are living in the end of times and that the world is getting more evil by the second.

The fact is this world has not changed very much. People die and people are born. The world keeps turning because we have death and we have birth.

But I will say this to anyone who wants to enter my home with out permition.

” IS THERE LIFE AFTER DEATH? TRESPASS AND FIND OUT! “

I suppose, then, we ought to give up on the war of getting people to spell correctly.

Even Butch Otter made a comment some years ago about legalizing drugs (or maybe it was just about growing your own marijuana?)

It seems so many people are saying these days that drugs should be decriminalized and our efforts realigned. I am hearing it often enough and in enough distinct places to wonder if it will be a big issue in the 2008 presidential campaign?

Do you think drugs should be decriminalized, or do you think the drug war is getting us progress?

I’m all for stopping every war that’s based on fighting a concept such as “terror” or “drugs” or - even - “poor spelling”.

The whole idea is silly, wasting money on concept wars that COULD go to - oh - I dunno - how about Katrina victims (remember them, US taxpaying citizens?).

We’ve already given up plenty of our rights in the name of national safety and security - I say - if we don’t hold on to SOME rights then we shall be like little children who live helplessly under the (possibly pestilent influence) of those “in charge” - the evil-step-folk.

Shudder.

The war on drugs? We lost before we ever started fighting.
The war on bad spelling/grammar? show me where to enlist.
By the time I read it here, though I know that I’m already too late. Our teachers in the trenches at some point dropped their language weapons and ran, leaving thousands of kids out there to fall back on ebonics and spell-check. Sadly, even a recent e-mail exchange I had with a young news writer at channel 6 news revealed that we’re being de-educated as I speak. He informed me very proudly that he had won several awards for his writing, and in subsequent letters told me that he had been taught to write his reports at a sixth grade comprehension level. That, my friends, is what you are reading on the current news websites these days.
If you don’t believe me, just ask them….

I still have not heard anyone justify why we are stilling fighting a war on drugs.

Has it really come to the place that nobody agrees with the war on drugs, but we are still just going through the motions because nobody wants to be seen as soft on drugs?

I know it’ll really come down to our politicians finding the backbone and sense to say “enough”.

I know they won’t do that until they recognize that a majority of Americans disagree with how the war on drugs has played out and lost.

Maybe this will be a good poll topic next week.

Anyone agree with the war on drugs methods, strategies, results?

I think a “war on drugs” is about the most ridiculous concept I’ve heard.

When it first became a popularized sentiment (I’m sorry- I forget when it started) I was @ that time rolling my eyes in disgust and sighing like a dumb-struck love-sick schoolgirl over the senselessness of it all.

In my opinion, the reason a “war on drugs” still persists is because Americans are too busy behaving like spoiled children (I want my big home, new cars, plasma tvs, and cheap fast food) to take a stand on almost anything.

I think we have been placated into lazy, mind-numbed submission.

Folks, legalization is a pipe dream. Spend time out in the trenches seeing kids left to their own devices…spend time seeing how somebody started out on marijuana only to graduate to coke, or worse, meth. It’s just like the war on terror…nobody has the stomach for anything anymore…just bury the ole head in the sand and maybe it will all go away or be allright. Certain parts of society want to decriminalize anything and everything….we have laws to hold civilized society together. Because some people don’t follow them we should just get rid of them? If you want to talk about legalization then talk about the effects and be prepared to own them…just like the phased redeployment in Iraq. Bush erred when he failed to prepare for the effects of Toppling Saddam (i.e. Iran being strengthened and the Sunni - Shia infighting)…don’t make the same mistake and assume that drug legalization will solve all of the woes of society. In my view, it won’t. We will experience even more problems with people hooked on drugs with no way to force them (yes force them…95% don’t seek treatment on their own)to seek treatment for their substance abuse.

Sorry, Jeremy, I spent 12 years on the front lines dealing with the “gateway drug” THEORY…it’s not theory…it’s reality. You want to find out more…attend some AA and NA meetings….see how people got started and continued….go attend some Bonneville County Drug Court hearings when people give their presentations on their use (where it started, etc..) call the Alcoholic Rehabilitation Association House 522-6012 and find out more….call Lanny Taylor at Felony Probation 528-4220 and have him tell you….call Kevin Reinhold at County Probation 528-5600 and have him tell you too. You can read about THEORIES in books….when you see it in action and deal with the stories of people and their addictions first hand what you read in a book doesn’t mean as much as the real deal.

Mike, I have to dissagree with you as well. Just because SOME people get hooked on drugs and others don’t doesn’t mean that pot is a “gateway” drug. Just as SOME people become alcoholics and some people don’t. I’ve been on the “frontlines” as you say, and I had a pretty crazy “college life” and went through my experimental phase and I didn’t get hooked on anything.
You’ve seen way too many commericals where they’ve got people sitting on their couch after smoking a joint and they claim their lives are worthless and their going nowhere in live, etc. I don’t smoke anymore, but I used to and had no problem functioning in society. I can name a dozen people right off the top of my head that have their own business’ and/or have a great job making six figures a year and they still smoke pot on occasion after a long day at the office. It’s no different than alcohol. Actually it is…it doesn’t impair your judgement nearly as bad as alcohol does.

I’ve also known plenty of people that have done coke and meth and they never got hooked on it. Its just like anything else: alcohol, pain-killers, etc. Everything in moderation. It’s those people that get hooked (just like alcoholics) and all they want to do is stay high to where it takes over and ruins their lives. That’s all you ever hear about from “the war on drugs campaign”. You don’t hear about the casual user who leads a normal and productive life and is resposible member of society.
Why do you think the legalization of drugs worked so well in the Netherlands? Since they legalized drugs, the crime rate has dropped dramatically.
Stop watching so many commericals! It’s all propoganda from the “Just say no” crowd!

Exactly Joe!

That one gets me too. Why have a law and give people tickets for not wearing a seatbelt? I mean c’mon, if someone doesn’t want to wear a seatbelt it only hurts them! But of course it a personal choice and one that should be left that way. My parents were in a horrible accident and the seat belt almost killed my Mother. She was trapped in a burning automobile and the seatbelt was stuck. She got burned over 40 percent of her body because of that seatbelt and she refuses to wear one to this day, ticket or not!

“What about the added costs of addicts committing crimes to pay for their habit, or sucking more welfare out of the system?”

I’m glad to see you concerned about costs. I do not believe the costs you identified come close to the $10 billion annually we waste on the war on drugs, do you?

“What about the general principle that has gotten lost in this country RIGHT vs. WRONG?”

I agree, what is right vs. wrong? Is it wrong to make alcohol a legal intoxicant, given all that we know of it’s effect on healthy, families, and society?

Is it right to continue waging war on our own people over substances that in most cases have the same effect or less than legalized alcohol?

Is it right to continue repeating a historical mistake (prohibition) that we know we cannot win?

I say again, decriminalize drugs, take the $10 billion we save in police/court/prison costs, sink $5 billion more into drug treatment solutions and we come out ahead financially and societ-ally.

“…however, what if one of those fools was your family member?”

If your family member did get hooked on drugs, what would you rather see?

Would you want your family member to go to prison and all the ruins that exacts on family lives?

Or would you want your family member to go to treatment.

Heck, I’d be all for enforcing “dry-tank” treatments in more cases, where a family turns in their addict member to a place like an institution, where they lock down the person for up to a month.

Addicts need to decide for themselves to go clean, but drying them out like that could help some people.

So what would you rather have for your own family member? Treatment or prison?

Help or punishment?

Amen.

We cannot win every evil in the world.

We have to prioritize.

I think the majority of Americans consider the war on drugs a much lower priority than more issues than you can shake a stick at.

ps I am a drug user. I’m a big fan of coffee, which contains caffeine, which is one of the most addictive chemicals known to man. Hmmm.

I agree! I had a brother that got hooked on everything. Alcohol, pot, coke, meth, heroin, etc. Anything and everything he could get his hands on. He had his own business make a very good living. He lost everything, including his wife and child. And that’s what it took for him to snap out of it and wake up! He went to prison for a year and got out and started back up again. Then he went to rehab and that’s how he got clean.
Get rid of the war on drugs and spend the money on education, and rehabilitation. Prison only makes criminals out of drug users.

If that’s not the front lines, I don’t know what is.

I’d rather the government tell me I can’t drink coffee anymore. I can’t take care of myself.

It would be great if we could all actually think for ourselves and do what was in our best self-interest…this would take care of some, but not all of our problems as individuals and society. However, because we are not all rational actors (due to being under the influence of whatever…coffee, twinkies, sex, drugs, etc….)or we are too rational and act only in our self interest at the expense of others this necessitates government to handle certain matters. I do agree with you that in many areas the government has gone too far and in those areas it is supposed to be in, i.e. like law enforcement it doesn’t go far enough to protect people, i.e. Melissa Garcia’s death here in Idaho Falls, or it goes too far and does too much that starts looking like Orwell’s 1984. Thanks for kindly nudging my shoulder though…I am glad you weren’t yelling. Keep up the good posts Gypsy…even though I don’t agree with everything it is great to find out how whether we come from right or left we can find somethings to agree on. I wish our politicians could come to figure this out too.

How would you propose clinical trials been designed to legalize cocaine, meth or other illegal drugs?

What would be the indications for those drugs?

And, what placebo could a clinical trial utilize to meet the requirements a placebo must meet to be used for an approved study?

It’s one thing to say let’s legalize drugs. It is a very different process to make it happen.

Additionally, what insurance companies would pay for meth or cocaine or other substances?

I can only think of two researched and proven medical uses for which cocaine is currently used; yet, I’ll bet the third party payors never see an Cocaine on a detailed list of itemized medications a patient received.

However, someone reading this may know more than I about this and I’d be happy to learn if insurances are billed for those very limited uses of Cocaine.

Or, do we say there is no way the FDA will approve the trials to prove meth, cocaine and other drugs to even research medical benefits of ill-legal substances; consequently, we have to consider those drugs more like supplements, such as vitamins?

Want to guess who regulates food, supplements and vitamins? The FDA.

A few have posted about caffeine as an addictive substance. Caffeine is contained as part of some prescription medications and has proven to be highly effective in treating certain illnesses. I’m not saying daily consumption of caffeine isn’t addicting.

The real joke, about the power of caffeine, is when one understands what is in chocolate. Have you ever heard of theobromide?

And for those not particularly fond of big pharmas, please consider a few of facts:

1. Why have so many small pharmaceutical companies had to sell to become one of the very large pharmaceutical companies?

2. How much does it cost to research and design new medications to treat the medical conditions we don’t want to have untreated, or undertreated?

3. Why did most U.S. pharmaceutical companies stop making vaccinations? Consequently, until recently, the U.S. had to depend on foreign pharmaceutical companies to supply the U.S. with enough doses to properly immunize against all sorts of diseases.

4. What large pharmaceutical company makes prescription drugs only? In other words, have you researched the other areas most pharmaceutical companies also supply consumers with what they want?

Before anyone asks me if I work at or for Melaleuca, the answer is no. I think I spell the name incorrectly more times than I spell it correctly. It is not a company that interests me.

I do have a background in the hard sciences and I do read pharamceutical reports from around the world frequently. My POV is no more important than any others who have posted here. It’s just different based on much of my work.

I found the ‘War on Drugs’ page at wikipedia very informative on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs

Some things I knew before, many things I did not know before.

Since this is an open-source encyclopedia, you are presented with cited facts for and against the war on drugs.

Note that the original 30’s legislation against drugs was based on false testimony that drugs caused things that are clearly not true (like insanity).

I saw a documentary on the guy who’s job it was to launch that 30’s war on drugs. At one point he was driving and stopped on a bridge. He looked out over acres of the marijuana weed growing freely everywhere, and wondered how he was going to turn the nation against something that had been accepted as harmless and grew everywhere wildly. The answer was a misinformation propaganda campaign part of which included the false congressional testimony and the infamous “Reefer Madness” movie.

Clicking on the ‘gateway theory’ link provides a page dedicated to the facts for and against that theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_drug

Note the arguments that alcohol, tobacco, Ritalin, and caffeine are possibly stronger gateway drugs than illegal drugs.

Please read/skim these pages and discuss some of the information presented there.

Mike -

That’s why we have voting - so that one “master” prevails. It’s not a perfect system, but when it’s not packed full of special interest groups all vying for their more than fair share - it’s a reasonably effective one.

Okay4Now -

You wrote -

Why have so many small pharmaceutical companies had to sell to become one of the very large pharmaceutical companies?

I write -

The fact that you think small pharms “had” to sell out has me scratching my head in confusion.

I used to own stock in a Big Pharm that started out twenty years ago as a small pharm. Trust me - this company did not “have” to sell out - but since they have (something like fifteen times in twenty years) my stock skyrocketed.

And yes, I stand behind my very words. I realized what the compnay I had invested in was doing so I sold the stock. A stock that doubled about every five years due to “having” to sell out to a bigger company.

I researched the company I had invested with - checked out everything from where its money GOES to where its money COMES from, how much testing it does (on animals, humans, and unsuspecting people in third world countries).

I determined it lacking in reasonable ethics when it comes to darn near everything important to me so I - one who enjoys investing in health care checked out other pharm companies, found them lacking as well, so I sold my stock and invested in something much more ethical.

Trust me, small pharm companies don’t “have” to sell out to the biggies, they CHOOSE to. Just like they CHOOSE to put ineffective / out of date drugs into the less developed countries and get a giant tax break from them.

If you think it’s wrong of me to hate Big Pharm for that - go right ahead and think it’s wrong. I’ve done my homework and feel extremely assured that I’m on the right thought track, for myself if not for certain others.

I’ve been around long enough to know that booze was the gateway drug for my generation. I have seen my share of victims and survivors. Many of the survivors I have known gave up the crippling addiction to the overconsumption of alcohol for the more benign use of pot. Those who stayed faithful to booze for their high were more likely to add coke to their already unhealthy repertoire of indulgences. Those kids in high school and college who got high and drove their cars to their deaths were not smoking pot, they were drunk.

Jeremy, once again I applaud you young man, some of the most down to earth, stable, caring folks I know are pot smokers. I found that to be true when first introduced to pot users nearly forty years ago in Viet Nam and still feel the same about it to this day. It wasn’t the potheads who randomly shot up villages and the countryside and thus gave us all a bad name, it was more often than not the “alkies”, as we called them.

Jeremy, you are correct, pot is not the gateway drug that it’s detractors would have us believe…certainly not in my experiences.

Jeremy- No punching bag for you buddy! Nothing personal at all intended. I enjoy your point of view…I just don’t happen to agree with it. The fact that I don’t agree with you does not negate the fact that marijuana is now more potent than the Vietnam era Meso talks about.

THC has effects on the human body…and not all of them just making users nice folks who are down home and nice to hang with. Drugs bring crime, child neglect and abuse, loss of productivity at work…etc…you know the drill…and marijuana is in that category too. So, nothing personal…I will firmly admit that I haven’t read 30 studies on the the “evils of reefer” (lol) but I have spent more than 30 years seeing the direct effects of drugs on society right here in ole Idaho Falls. Like I said before, call up ARA and Drug Court and get the scoop on what is happening on the street. I think that tells far more than reading studies that seemingly contradict each other pro and con depending on who is writing the study and who is paying for the intended result. I prefer seeing the results first hand and using that as a guid every time.

Gypsy -

Thanks for such a quick response. I value being a free person - you know - the little things in life like walking around in my yard or house, going shopping, listening to whatever music I like, eating whatever food at the time I want etc. and not making license plates. Due to contractal agreements, which I’ve signed, I don’t relish the thoughts of a $250,000 - $500,000 fine + some time behind bars for disclosing proprietary information.

So unfortunately, I can’t give you a link. I wish I could as this story is very different.

I don’t have access to their books, but I seriously doubt Elan was in a position to contribute a dime to anyone’s political campaigns, given that they had outgrown their San Francisco location and had just built a totally new facility in San Diego, when their unusual situation happened.

I do know the company, due to circumstances beyond their control, was forced to sell assets, especially developing products, to stay solvent.

I admit I haven’t checked too recently, but my understanding is Elan was going to re-tool in the U.S. so they could keep their facilities working in more of a supporting role for others. I’m guessing that change would probably have required a lot of capital to modify how and for what their labs were used.

Since, Elan’s headquarters are based in Ireland, they may have attempted to try new drug development in the EU (I haven’t kept up and don’t know).

About the best I can do is give you a hint: Think about about the “E” in Elan and why that may be important. I believe I can confirm if you’re headed in the right direction, but that’s about it.

I do apologize that I can’t tell you more. Actually, it’s fairly painful for me on a personal level, given what was in the pike for Elan and work I had done on one product and would have started again, when Elan acquired it.

Additionally, people I knew who resigned from other companies to work for this new division, weren’t necessarily the right staff for the turn Elan had to make in the U.S. Many moved from their San Francisco location to San Diego. Being from L.A., you would have a good idea about the real estate costs in both cities.

One recommendation I’d have is try different meta search engines - don’t rely upon Google. You may learn more that way.

You make me laugh: I’m sure you’ll find a way to tie this to the Bush Administration. You seem quite skilled at connecting the dots so your answer is consistent. But, the premise of campaign contributions isn’t the way to research this one.

BTW - unrelated, but I’ll be interested to read what you think of the liberal drinking or whatever the correct name is, of the group Joe gave you. Have fun and I hope you make some new friends.

Good luck with the research. I’m sure you’ll find this information, although it’s not exactly front page news.

Most excellent rebuttall Jeremy!
Thank you!
I’ve been trying to explain those very points to people for years, but you just can’t convince some people. Especially those that have never the herb. It’s alot safer than alcohol I’ll tell you that. I know quite a few well to do members of society that “partake” and their lives are not filled with crime and chaos. Nor have they succumbed to the evils of harder and/or heavier drugs. People would be surprised at how many of their neighbors do as well and you wouldn’t even know. All you hear about though is the “pot-heads” and “stoners” though. It’s sad really.
Legalize & decriminalize. I’ll be the first one to open up a “coffee shop” in Idaho Falls!

If you’ve ever been on essentially and pain killer that’s narcotic-based, you’ve used cocaine. Sorry.

In fact, I believe that most medically-accepted pain killers and sedatives are narcotic-based, correct?

And the “medicine” they give ADD kids these days is gloried speed.

Funny how a different name can change everything.

What the difference? They both exhibit similar symptoms, both are HIGHLY addictive, and both are narcotics. The only difference is the name and who you can get them from, really.

POST #88
Jeremy I loved that post and it is the truth good point. I also believe we will never get legalization because the government agencies make to much money on selling the drugs and busting people for the drugs. They love the drugs being illegal its free money and u get paid 3 times. You give the drugs to the people then you bust the people for selling the drugs then you bust the people for doing the drugs man that is alot of money. I guess taxing it wouldnt be enough for the big government power house.

Relax, Scoobysnax (post #92). If you want to tell us what you have or haven’t tried, that’s up to you. If you want to ask me what I have or haven’t tried, that’s up to me to draw you a boundary and not answer.

Jeremy, no not all narcotics or analgesics are opoid-based. And no, a derivative of Cocaine is not Cocaine.

For anyone to make a blanket statement that both Cocaine and narcotics are highly addictive, without further clarification, I say bring on your biochemical proof and your experts. I’ll offer my first expert as the dentist in Baltimore who is in charge of professional rehab for Maryland professionals, Dr. Patrick Sammon.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE - a BIOCHEMICAL FACT, FOR PATIENTS EXPERIENCING PHSYCIAL PAIN TO GET ADDICTED TO A NARCOTIC.

Once their phsycial pain has stopped, if the person continues to use the prescribed medication for other reasons, then you are talking about using a prescription for a psychological use, when it was prescribed for physical pain.

There is a huge difference.

How many college, graduate courses, or CEUs have you who who say narcotics for physical pain and Cocaine are the same in addiction potential?

How much practice experience have each of you had, to know what you are stating about addiction as proven facts?

Ronin Rich is correct that Cocaine is used as part of a preperation for certain vascular problems. There is also one other licensed use, of which I’m aware.

But, for about $400.00 maybe some of those who have posted would like to go to drug and alcohol school in June to get the latest national data and thinking about this. June 24-29th.

BTW - I agree with you Jeremy about oversue of stimulants with kids.

However, the next time you get an rx for an anti-inflammatory, a very common pain reliever, or certain other synthetic compounds, ask your doctor if all pain relievers are narcotics. Are Tylenol, aspirin or Ibuoprofen narotics? NO.

First Mike, then OkforNow.

Mike -

I hear what you’re saying.

Did you ever see the film “Man of the Year” with Robin Williams? VERY appropriate to this time and place in our society.

OkforNow -

I admit that the “E” clue does nothing for me, sorry! I understand why you’re not / wanting / willing to say more - that’s fine, I respect that.

For the record, I can’t pinpoint EVERYTHING back to the Bush Administration, only much of the greed. And even then - some of it goes clear back to Reagan, the guy who - effectively - talked many people out of their protective unions.

Truly and seriously, the “conserative” party has become more and more mean in their tactics. I can’t prove why this is, but here is a not unreasonable theory.

Back in the day the “conservative white Christian man” (hope I’m allowed to say Christian - because it IS important to the reply, though not the center of it) owned much. He owned the land, he owned the slaves, he owned the vote, he owned the way things ran. Fast forward to today - we now have (gasp) a woman and a black man running for president.

This serves as an example to show us all just how far the underclasses have come in a couple hundred years, AND more importantly it shows the balance of power shifting. Before - “the man” (as they say) had it easy, now he must put up a fight to “conserve” his values.

How to do this? Welllllllll, let’s see. What does the conservative white Christian man have @ his disposal? Clearly he has MONEY - old, long-standing money. Money is power.

It is my assertion (and not mine alone) that Those Who Are Used To Being In Charge are fighting dirty to stay that way. Although it’s true that women and racial minorities have largely learned to “play the game” so as to fit in with the status quo - let’s face it - THEY too have their agendas. So do other groups, like, sayyyyyyyyy, gays who want the right to marry.

The Boys In Charge use their influence (money) to buy everything from the drug “war” to young people they send to the Middle East to die for their precious fossil fuel, to the media - which - TRUST me - is anything but “liberal” (if you disagree, find me a radio outlet that is all liberal - now find me ten that are conservative - I bet you’ll find seven of the conservative before you find one of the liberal).

They use what they have - influence religiously, monetarily, and ownershiply (that’s not a word, sorry) as part of their power arsenal.

Of course we can’t prove that the Big Boys are buying up everything from Attorney Generals to mass media in an attempt to maintain control, but many of us are working on it.

And that, in a nutshell, is why I do believe the Bushy Admin. is a big, fat, ugly blight upon the landscape of the world (not to mention an embarrassment to many of us US citizens).

As for the “Drinking Liberally” meeting tomorrow night, my partner will be unavailable tomorrow night. I am thinking I might wait until next week when he can jin me - just in case for some reaon I can’t FIND the group and end up all alone (that happened when I went to the Idaho Democrat meeting in JB’s - I couldn’t find anybody because I don’t KNOW any of them, so I stood around looking like a dummus for an hour).

When somebody is WITH you - you can always go away and enjoy yourselves @ a different place, but alone, I’d just feel like I drove clear to Idaho Falls for nothing.

Okay, Ok4Now!

It looks like I won’t even be online for a day or two after tonight, so you have plenty of time!

Where’s the Air America Affiliate in Eastern Idaho?

I’d love to know, please help me find it here. I would appreciate it! I would love to hear Randi Rhodes on regular radio.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

What channel is Rush Limbaugh on? How about Mike Savage?

I never had trouble finding wither one of THEM around here, but I never did find Air America (until I got got satelitte radio - which also has more than one RIGHT wing channels, but only one “Progressive”).

Next?

Hey jeremy, this story is not kind to the mentally ill. Apparently, British doctors found out that THC exacerbates schitzophrenia in the mentally ill.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,269340,00.html

Jeez…how unfair to this population. I thought that maryjane was harmless….okay…not necessarily fair…cheap shot on my part!

Seriously,
Air America was never on around here to my knowledge. They floundered as a business because it was a loony tunes broadcast that mainly had socialists on the air…that tends to turn even liberals off if you get my drift. It is not corporate greed…it’s the fact that nobody wanted to listen to how great Hugo Chavez was and how we should just be like Cuba and stop being an arrogant nation. American’s like their country and when you get angry folk like Jeanne Garofolo (kinda like Rosie Odonnell) spewing anti-American views ALL the time nobody wants anything to do with that. It would be nice to blame Bush or Halliburton but I think Air America fell on it’s own sword.

Incidentally, I wonder if Jerry Falwell ever had a radio program on the scale of Rush or Air America? I bet if he did he would die a slow painful death just like Air America, and not because of liberals….but more on the premise that American’s don’t go for extremes that are ideological…now, if it’s funny and entertaining that is another matter!!!

And thanks for helping me make my own point Mike!

Not all (or even most) people who are unhappy with the country are “unAmerican” but by golly, we have been CALLED that by even the likes of GWB.

“You’re either for us or you’re against us”.

If we’re anti-war it means we’re anti-soldier. WTH??????????? We have wanted them to come HOME for four years - and WE are anti-soldier?

THIS is exactly what I mean.

It’s called smearing and people who do it are VERY good @ it.

I see it for exactly what it is. A sad attempt to disrespect a person’s viewpoint, rather than simply to disagree with it.

Again, I’m through. I in no way feel the desire to go on with this with you. Comparing “Socialists” to something WORSE (yeah I get your drift) and using phrases like “Seriously, I thought it died”, “nobody wanted to listen to how great X person is”, “slow painful death” and “anti-American” are NOT words of argument - they are words of attack.

I don’t attack to turn an argument in my favor. I think it’s uncreative to do so. I refuse to play anymore.

Good night.

Mike - Did you even read that story? Firstly, it has nothing to do with the mentally ill. It was a study that showed that in SOME people (funny it doesn’t mention numbers) may react to marijuana with temporary hallucinations and paranoia.

But doesn’t alcohol have the same effect, and it’s still legal. And valuum. How does this new study totally debunk any part of the legelization debate except that weed should be regulated the same as alcohol (as I’ve already conceded).

Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier…I was out with GUEST 4321 scoring some….NOT. You get to keep your year’s worth of salary. Never touched the stuff and never will. I prefer to not have to use the crutch of drugs to temporarily solve my problems or create new ones. (Circle the wagons…let me guess the next comment will say how great THC is to battle glaucoma….I will probably be slammed for being unkind to the blind?)

Jeremy, my only point about the story link was to make a point that THC is not some harmless component of marijuana…it is not a harmless drug and that is what justifies its regulation as a schedule 2 controlled substance that is illegal to manufacture, possess, or use, except under very narrow conditions. That is all…quite simple…..just another piece of the puzzle here why many people consider it to be more than just harmless fun and simply recreational!

Mike … I honestly don’t know what to say at this point. You’re obviously uninformed and a really, really unreasonable guy. You present one study and expect to prove your point? You bash people who criticize American policy by comparing them to Cubans? I think you really need to re-read some of your posts and critically think about them, and I think you’ll find the same conclusions I have - you’re not interested in honest debate or an exchange of information, you just like to be contrary. I get it, I really do. But that isn’t what this site is about.

See Comment Rule #3.

Thank you sir.

Sorry Mike, but I agree with 4321 and Jeremy on this one. You say you have never used pot but you have strong feelings against it. If you have been involved with treatment of drug users for 30 years, I’m guessing that you are only involved with the ones who got in trouble with it. There are many more users who don’t have trouble (except the risk of going to jail).

Also if you had done any research you would know that industrial hemp does not contain enough THC to get high from smoking it. But you don’t want any new information. I think your mind is already made up. Like the way you slammed Air America, “looney-tunes, socialist…turn even liberals off.” Did you ever once even listen to it? I highly doubt it. Please stop recycling opinions you read elsewhere and think for yourself.

Mike, I wonder how old your children are now? If they are late teens… I have some bad news for you. The chances are very high that the only person in your home who has never tried a little pot is you. My daughters and I had dinner last weekend together. They are both in their mid 20’s, college educated. One is still in school, the other is out. The oldest one is actually worth a million dolars from a business that she owns. Neither has ever been in trouble with the law. Both admited that they had smoked pot during high school — and they laughed at old dad — he was a cop at the time, and not smart enough to catch them. We had a nice laugh about it. Neither still smokes it (or so they claim) but they said that they may do it again sometime, after their kids are older, maybe even grown and gone. I do not smoke it only because I choose not to. I smoked it a TON in high school though. And never tried a drug harder than that. Its like anything else — it will do to you what you let it. With or without laws. It doesn’t ruin you. YOU ruin you. The fact that it is illegal is what makes it so valuable. Thats where the dealers you describe come from. An unsavory crowd — peddling a highly valuable illegal substance. If it were legal with certain restrictions — such as alcohol is now, what would happen to the price and the dealers? While you have been parading around trying to lock up the pot dealers, have we managed to protect your children enough from the true bad guys? The child molesters, or dealers of crack (true bad guys)that we may be able to catch more of — once we are not wasting our time on a guy with joint? When I was a cop in IF, I dumped a lot of pot in the wind. Nice young adults who were not out of line — not driving under the influence and not causing any trouble got a lecture and had to watch their pot drift away in that great Idaho Falls wind! Then I would go out and try to find some real bad guys to put in jail.

Mike, it’s not that we disagree, it’s that we present solid, observable evidence to back up our point, and you just ignore it. Even when I let it go for a couple of days, you’re back restating your baseless assertions that you’re right and we’re wrong, all the while posting ONE piece of new evidence that was, to be critical, very weak.

Look, I understand that you don’t want your kids to smoke pot. I’m not sure I would want mine to, either. But my parents didn’t want me to smoke pot, and I did anyway. It’s part of growing up and making mistakes. However, the drug war’s goal is to turn those mistakes into lifelong criminal records and life-destroying stigmas.

The only rational, reasonable conclusion one can take away from viewing all of the evidence is that the drug war is not working. Also, critical study of decriminalization policies reveal that they are our best choice in dealing with the drug “problem”. You don’t agree with that, but I don’t think you have any reason behind it - I believe your stance is based on fear, and that is never a good thing.

ps and FeelinLucky is actually right here. Your kids will, most likely, at least try pot. It is better that you come to terms with this now and decide how you will handle the situation, rather than focusing your energies on deterring them from doing it.

ps maybe we should stop using the term “genetically tweeked”, too - most pot has been amplified by simple artificial selection. The same we get have gotten better corn crops, higher yielding grain, and your dog.

I’m a test tube baby.

Why do most of the disparaging remarks about marijuana come from conservative folks who are relaxing over 4 or 5 cocktails?

See: Anandamide - Wikipedia, regarding post #124. Damn, I wish I knew how to link to these articles like you young guys do. Anybody out there want to explain how…to this old fart? It’s only been a couple years since I was communicating with my Smith/Corona manual typewriter. My grandkids think I’m only slightly removed from the Stone Age.

That’s way too many mistakes in so few posts…make that “Botany of Desire”.

Yeah, Joe, that’s the one. I’ll try to walk myself through your instructions….Thanks.

And one more thought — This was Butte Montana! NOT los Angeles. Not NYC. Little Butte Montana, 2 hours away from Idaho Falls and half the size! Population of the entire county is 35,000. Well, 34,998.

I think FeelingLucky was attempting to post to the live chat box discussion about a Montana gun story and got in this thread by mistake.

I was thinking that too….but then I thought if posted here, it will be available for everyone to see and won’t go away like in the chat box. It’s a good story, one everyone should read.

No, I meant to post it here. I believe that it goes hand in hand with much of my original article. Thats one of the primary points I was trying to make… TEACH your kids. This young lady was a clay shooting champion. I bet her father (and maybe her mother) spend time outdoors — teaching this young lady how to shoot, recreationally. It saved her life. She also had the mental capacity to defend herself. Once again — taught in one way or another by her parents. That is two situations within the last few months — (Butte and the mall shootings in Utah) both happening fairly close to Idaho Falls and both involved lives saved by someone who was trained to use a firearm. There is no doubt that this girl would have been killed had she not defended herself the way she did. Exactly the point I was trying to make. A better world because of a gun? Ask her or her family what they think aboutthe subject.

1. Excellent post! Patricia clearly had good training. I hesitate to post this as everyone will think it is a joke and it is not.

As discussed in the link, do you who are licensed and trained to carry and use a firearm if needed, think it was merely her angle, her size etc. that the first victim was hit where he was? I’m trying to chose my words carefully, so not to offend.

I’m wondering if in gun safety and shooting instruction, if that part of the body is one the average citizen is taught to shoot? It would make sense given that without treatment, it could easily be a fatal wound. I’m sure you all know why.

Will have to add my other thoughts later.

Hey all, that article about the Butte MT girl who shot the home invaders was on LibertyPost. Thats usually a reliable news source, but I have been trying to verify the story by other means. So far no luck. It may have been a fake. If so — please forgive me. I will call some friends of mine on the Butte PD tomorow and see if it is true or not.

I recently read an article by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret) that in my opinion says it all — and says it very well. I am pasting it below. I think that this is an interesting and very correct perpective;

Why The Gun In Civilization?

By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

That’s the most ridiculous post I’ve ever read!
If carrying a gun makes you feel like a bigger man, than by all means carry one. What happens when you’re having a bad day and somebody cuts you off in traffic? You more likely to pull that gun out and wave it in the air, not intending to harm anymore, but to show what a big man you are. (or think you are)
I’ve been taking martial arts & Tai Chi classes for over 25 years and in my opinion, you’re much better off learning how to defend yourself without the aid of a weapon or firearm than with one. Most people do not have confidence, the knowhow OR the proper training to carry a firearm in order to protect themselves.

I would encourage everyone to look into martial arts and learn how to deal with and even avoid getting in certain circumstances to begin with. And if a circumstance arises, learn how to protect yourself.
If a mugger came up to me and put a gun to my head, I have the knowledge and the training to disarm him and permanantly disable him if I chose to. Martial arts builds confidence and character and teaches you to take charge in a situation such as a mugging, rape, or attack of any kind.
9 out of 10 times, a mugger isn’t going to attack you from across the room. You’re not going to be raped from across the room. Their going to be right on top of you. Knowing how to protect yourself in close quarters like this is invaluable.

I’m all for peoples right to bear arms, I have a number of firearms myself. But I have to disagree with your statement that the gun is the ONLY personal weapon that puts the 100lb girl on equal footing with a 200lb mugger. I personally know of at least a half a dozen 98lb to 120lb girls that could use their body as a weapon and disable any 220lb mugger without a problem.

Our society has drilled it into our heads for over 200 years that guns are the only way to solve problems and protect ourselves. This is wrong, plain and simple. Look at the thousands of years of Chinese history, Brazialians, Tawainese, Japanese and a dozen other cultures and civilizations that have used their bodies as the ultimate weapon against personal attacks.

Like I stated earlier, most attackers don’t stand across the room with their gun pointed at you. Their up close and personal, and whether you want to believe it or not, it’s realatively easy to disable a mugger or rapist with just a few moves. All it takes is practice and dedication. And a will to better yourself. I’ve learned a number of different martial art techniques over the years and I would suggest everyone look into it. You’re never to old to start learning how to protect yourself without resorting to guns. Our country has turned into a bunch of fat lazy people who want the easy way out of everything. They want a gun to protect themselves. They want a pill to help them loose weight. They want instant gratification when it comes to everything in their lives. Nobody wants to work hard for anything anymore.

Sure, I’ll continue to own guns to hunt with and to keep in my house to protect my family and my property, but there’s no need for people to walk around carrying a firearm. The mind and the body are a very powerful weapon. Learn to use both and you’ll never need a weapon to protect yourself from a mugger, rapist or any other thug that wants to harm you.

Interesting. Joe posted his video as I was writing my post and I didnt’ even know what the video was about. But obviously its a typical scenario. I know road rage happens all the time in most of the larger cities that i’ve lived in, in the past. People end up getting arrested or shot for waving/pointing a gun at someone because they got pissed off at somebody elses driving.
Great post Brian.

With all due respect to everyone here — only a fool would bet the safety of himself and his family on his own physical ability to be the toughest guy in the land. Therein lies the point of the article by the Major. Martial Arts are wonderful.. They teach many many good qualities. Its wonderful to be physically and mentally prepared. The only thing better is to be prepared for anything. Think about it. Why don’t police departments hang up the firearms and just get trained in Tai Chi? Ahhhh, because bad guys have guns (and will always have guns) and we need to be armed to at least the same degree as the potential attacker… Unless of course you know Tai Chi and truely are the toughest man on the planet. Good for you. I’m not. But I am prepared to defend myself against you if I must. See post #149 for details.

It’s not about being the toughest or the strongest person in the land. If you knew anything about misdirection, pressure points, where to land a blow that will cause maximum damage with minimum force, you don’t have to be the toughest person in the land. Like I said in my earlier post, I know a girl who’s 98lbs and has taken on men well over twice her weight, so strength and “toughness” have nothing to do with it. But its obvious you have no clue and you think you’re the tough guy with a gun. There are police forces all over the world that don’t carry guns. As a matter of fact, ours is one of only a couple in the world that does.
Learn the facts before you call somebody else a fool. Because only a fool will disagree with something he knows nothing about.

You just made my point. “A Glock 9 SOUNDS cooler”. WOW!
Definately a person that has no clue!

You win….
careful with that Glock Jr.

Egg on my face. After posting the video in comment, I looked at that website listed, where they say they filmed it in ten minutes. It was staged. I was fooled, I am a fool, I just thought of this conversation when I saw it.

CR67 (and maybe Slim), a little food for thought. I saw the an interesting perceived flaw in the last post, “….Putting a gun in peoples hands just for protection in the everyday world is a bad idea. People have bad days, stress levels rise and all it takes is one bad decision to wave a gun at somebody out of anger and it’s all over.
I learned a long time ago not to let my emotions drive my car. When you have to deal with idiot drivers as long as I did living in a big city, you either let it get to you and be stressed out everyday, or you blow it off and laugh about it. It’s just not worth it…..”.

Does it stand that if we shouldn’t put guns in people’s hands because they could have a bad day that we shouldn’t put cars in people’s hands because they might have a bad day and crash into someone killing them or perhaps a crowd of people like the guy did in California and Washington State?

While it is a good thing that CR67 has not let emotions drive his car- what about all the responsible people that carry personal firearms for protection every day without a bang! Alot of people that carry weapons, including police officers, have bad days too and they are not out shooting up the countryside or the local mall.

Personally, if some nut job comes to the Mall and starts shooting, I want the ability to protect others and myself. By the time the cops show up the creep will have done all the damage.

Remember the Trolley Square shootings in Utah recently? If the off-duty officer had followed regulations of Trolley Square he would not have carried a weapon onto the premises with him. How many more people would have been killed or wounded if the officer wouldn’t have had the means to repel the attacker?

Gun control does not work and punishes honest and law abiding persons from protecting themselves. The criminals certainly don’t obey the law. If we want to use the logic that people have bad days therefore they shouldn’t be allowed to carry weapons there will be plenty of other things that bureaucrats will line up to ban. I don’t want my safety and that of others dependent solely on the government. The police are over burdened as it is. This isn’t about being macho carrying a gun. It is a serious responsibility and one that should not be infringed upon by the government.

Slim, in post 151 you made the comment at the end: “Sure, I’ll continue to own guns to hunt with and to keep in my house to protect my family and my property, but there’s no need for people to walk around carrying a firearm. The mind and the body are a very powerful weapon. Learn to use both and you’ll never need a weapon to protect yourself from a mugger, rapist or any other thug that wants to harm you.”

I agree with you that the mind and body are powerful weapons. Self-awareness of the surroundings is important. However, the old adage rings true: Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. At certain times there is no way to plan against an attack. It happens without warning. Talking is over at that point–especially if you have an emotionally disturbed guy on your hands.

Do you think that all those educated minds at Virginia Tech had the opportunity to try and talk their way out of getting shot? Perhaps they had the ability to jump out of their chairs and engage the perp in hand to hand combat? Unfortunately, the average person is not trained in such situations and they revert to flight or freeze. If someone had a firearm in that class–yet, another regulation set up that prevented people from helping themselves–perhaps things may have turned out differently and not as many people would have lost their lives. We will never know but odds are that the assassin would have taken some rounds and the melee would have been stopped.

There are alot of regulations set up by well meaning people that simply want to protect people from other people. What is missed here is that these well meaning types don’t understand that the people intent on shooting don’t follow the same rules you and I do. What looks good on paper doesn’t work well in the real world.

Now, pass the chocolate chip cookies and don’t take my guns away!

Maybe the Skyline Gun Club does something like this. They have one over in Boise that I have gone to. It is a nice operation and they have all kinds of weapons to try out. They make range fees and instruction fees to use the weapons. The only problem is the EPA regulations on this type of activity. The guy there told me that they had alot of regulations they had to put up with and it was expensive to run.

Heck, let’s give everybody an Etch-A-Sketch too, and we’ll all become artists. . .

http://www.localnews8.com/Global/story.asp?S=7119924

This incident in Pocatello may justify average Joe keeping a loaded gun in the house.

One amazing thing is the neighborhood it happened in. The Satterfield area of Pocatello is on the hill and very upscale, definately not where you would expect a dirtbag to be “hanging out” or even walking. Makes me wonder how he got there in the first place or why he was in the area. I’m sure if details emerge we’ll find out. He was pretty scary looking. To add, I think all stay at home moms should lock the doors while they are home during the day too. In the 90’s the police were chasing a guy (different state) who bailed from a car and ran through neighborhoods, until he happened upon an unlocked front door with a mom and kids inside. They had to tear gas him out - don’t recall if the mom or kids were hurt. The neighborhood was a nice one, not as nice as the Satterfield area but still uppper-middle class.