I recently came across a petition on petitionspot.com demanding “kid-free” zones in restaurants – the argument being that when we go out to a restaurant to eat, we don’t want to deal with screaming kids, noise, messy eating areas … if we wanted that, we’d stay home!
As many of you know, I work in a restaurant while I’m going to school. I’m a waiter in a mid-level eating establishment that caters a wide cross-section of Idaho Falls residents. Last week, we served the mayor. Earlier this week, none other than Mr. Vandersloot (junior) sat at one of my tables (he tips better than you would think). We also get kids – lots and lots of kids. More kids than a Tele-tubby Convention with free ice cream. In my experience, both personally and professionally, bringing your children out to lunch or dinner with you not only makes the experience less enjoyable for you, but for those around you.
My wife and I don’t have kids. It’s a choice we’ve made that we have a lot more fun to have, a lot more late-night martinis to drink, and a lot more quiet nights at home before we become responsible members of society and raise a child. However, it seems like every time we decide to hit the town for a meal at a restaurant, that choice is taken away from us – we have to endure screaming babies in movie theaters, listen to loud children at restaurants, all while trying to get away from the stresses of everyday life.
As a waiter, I’ve noticed a very distinct correlation between the time I have to spend cleaning up after a table and the number of children in attendance, and I cannot help but wonder if these parents allow their kids to throw food in a 25-foot radius around themselves when they eat at home. I certainly hope not.
Now, a national trend seems to be appearing – kid-free restaurants. I recall watching a segment on 20/20 not too long ago that featured a cafe in Chicago that banned unruly children, to the point where if a child misbehaved in any way, the manager asked the entire family to leave. Such shrewd business activity must have surely shut the place down, right? Not even close – the place earned far more business once the distraction of misbehaving children was eliminated!
These are just anecdotal observations, but why couldn’t this work in Idaho Falls? Sure, we live in a very family-centered city, but what about those times when you just don’t want to deal with other peoples’ children? My wife and I recently went out to a very upscale restaurant (think close to $40 a plate) here in town and were shocked at how many children were misbehaving.
I wonder how a kid-free zone might be received in our area – a place for a quiet, relaxing night on the town, where married couples might get a baby-sitter to get away from stressful family life for a few hours and just relax. A place where there is no kids menu. No changing stations in the bathrooms. No crying, no screaming, no throwing food … just the joy of good food and good company.
So what do you think, Idaho Falls? Is Idaho Falls ready for kid-free food?
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Gato got runned over by Marcus many moons ago. Be ye daft, 2486? 
Let's have a new poll, alright, Joe?
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Sign me up. And help me find a baby-sitter.
Look in the phone book under “any 14 year old girl who wants a cell phone”
Can’t do it. I don’t believe in cell phone proliferation. . .
I agree kids are a distraction at restaurants. I have three, and there are times I dread taking them to any restaurant without a playground. Or big tables for us to hide under. I’m always amazed at how some let their kids just go nuts, making messes, et cetera, and then leave a few dollars for the waiter/waitress who has to clean up the mess. But I’m preaching to the choir on that one, eh?
I used to feel the same way, until I had kids of my own and built up my chaos immunity. Ye shall also.
Of course we actually sometimes get compliments on how well our children behave in restaurants. Not always of course.
I recall a family got kicked off an airline a few months back because their kid was throwing a tantrum. Don’t know what happened after to the airline or whatnot.
I think it’s a fair request, and I would like to see a restaurant try a ‘kid-free’ zone like a smoking-free zone.
THIS FROM THE PERSON WHO CRIES FOUL ABOUT A PUBLIC SMOKING BAN?
YOU THINK OTHERS SHOULD ENDURE DANGEROUS E.T.S. BUT YOU AND YOUR WIFE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO ENDURE OTHER PEOPLE’S ANNOYING CHILDREN?
YOU DON’T HAVE A CHOICE?! GO SOMEWHERE ELSE! IF YOU CAN’T FIND A RESTAURANT WHERE THERE ARE NO KIDS, TOUGH COOKIES!
GIVE ME A BREAK!
Remember, Jeremy, you may have observed a correlation between the number of kids in attendance and the mess you have to clean up, but that doesn’t equal causation.
I don’t see any reason why, if the market demands, there aren’t some restaurants that choose to cater to people who want a restaurant free of children. The same has happened to cranky codgers who want to wall themselves away in over-65 communities free of bicycles and skateboards and overflowing with people who understand the importance of ceramic lawn deer.
While restaurants can respond to market demand, I do think the other thing we can do without is the smarmy, anti-child, me-centric attitude that comes from people who want such bans. Ask for kid-free restaurants, but be polite about it and you will get more support.
It does seem too bad that this is just part of more movements for people to center more on themselves and their own pleasures and divorce themselves from the society around them. Seems we want more and more to be separated from ANY sort of “irritation” that others in society might cause. In enduring some of those irritations, we meet new people and make more friends, building stronger communities rather than becoming islands who are bound together only by shared tax burdens and the occasional natural disaster.
Funny. The mess always increases at my house when my two oldest are out of school and at home, making messes with their younger brother. I’d call that causation. At the restaurant, it’s the same thing. Jeremy’s example of food flung 25 feet may be extreme — but then again he’s a waiter and has likely seen this. I’m a parent, and I know I’ve seen it. And we’re not exactly slobs at our house. . .
Also, this doesn’t have anything to do with “chaos immunity.” Jeremy just wants a kid-free restaurant, that’s all. I’ve developed immunity to my kids’ chaos, but that doesn’t mean I need to carry it with me everywhere I go. Two weekends ago, my wife and I had our first kid-free weekend in, lesseee, FIVE YEARS. We went to a kid-free bed and breakfast. What fun.
Wasn’t there a post similar to this awhile ago (maybe part of the dinner and a movie thread)?
My first impression of this idea… give me a break! Really I believe the problem is the parents and not the children. The parents need to learn how to raise their children to act properly in public situations. Part of this process goes on at home but part of it in public, be it restaurants, movie theaters, stores, etc.
I have watched in amazement as kids will run up and down the isles in stores and restaurants. My first urge it to slap the parents and tell them to control their kids (of course I don’t act on that but it would be SOOOO nice).
I have two kids and I have NEVER let them behave this way. Only once has one of my children acted up in a restaurant and as soon as it was started he was taken out to the car for a little quiet time before he was brought back to the table to eat his meal with the rest of the group.
Whether I have my kids with me or not when I got to a restaurant, the mess I leave is usually the same, which means as little as possible. My mom worked as a waitress for several years so I have gotten in the habit of scraping all left over food on one plate and stacking the others under it so that it is is easier for the bus boy/waiter/waitress to clean up as well as making sure that we haven’t left a huge mess on the rest of the table.
Do we have any truly “high scale” restaurants locally? Maybe I just don’t get out enough but I am not aware of any other then possible the Sandpiper but I have never eaten there. But still, is banning the kids the right answer?
I truly wish that you could say something to parents with unruly children to make them control their kids so that those of us with kids that have been taught proper manners and people without children can still enjoy these places.
(On a side note I don’t understand taking an infant to the movies, its not like they will enjoy it anyway. Children I can totally understand at age appropriate movies, if you got to watch the new Shrek movie, expect kids to be there as well!)
I’ve lived in Idaho for twelve and a half years and have NEVER found an upscale eatery anywhere in the area. The Old Yellowstone Garage in Jackson Wy is the closest I’ve found – and when I was there there WAS a small child, well-behaved.
(That part was for Roxy. The rest of this is for y-all.)
I am forty-two years old and have never had kids. Most of my in-laws have had kids, who I have joined with in public eating. SOME of those people I refused to go out with more than once because their kids were extremely rowdy and ruined my meal (throwing food, jumping on the seat, running down the aisles – that kind of thing).
The rest of the in-laws have really well-behaved kids. Not “perfectly” behaved kids, but – well behaved.
I’ve noticed this to be the trend in places like Johnny Carinos, Chilis, The Brownstone. Most peoples’ children are well-behaved. I do not in any way mind them being around ME, in fact I think it’s cool that a family goes through the extra trouble to take their kids out to a place where the food doesn’t come wtih a toy surprise and a medium drink.
It is hideous when children ehaved nastily and the parents permit it. Remember though that you’re reading the words of me, Gypsy, the one who doesn’t feel any need to not speak her mind, so when a table is filled with seriously awful behavior I will ask to be moved away from it. It’s a pain to move – but usually it happens before the food arrives so the pain is worth the desire to get away.
I think “child free” restaurants in general isn’t a bad idea – I don’t know if our local market would support it, but some gutsy business owner could give it a try.
Would I go? Yes I would. Why not? I have tried almost all resturants in the area.
I, as an adult with no children, I’m okay with kids in restaurants though, in fact if a parent takes it upon him/herself to integrate a child into such an environment @ a young age, then that is great practice for the kid.
I’m not so sure about this post. Sure I like to enjoy a nice dinner out without having to deal with kids screaming and throwing food. But honestly, how often does that really happen? (ASIDE from being at Mcdonalds or other fast food places) I’ve eaten at The Cellar and the Sandpiper a number of times and have NEVER seen kids acting up there. There have only been a couple of instances at the Sandpiper where kids were even there, let alone behaving unruly. And I’ve never seen any children at The Cellar.
If you go to say Sizzler or Applebees, I’m sure it happens on occasion. But does it happen enough to warrant a child-free restaraunt?
I personally don’t eat out enough for it to bother me I guess. (more often it’s because I know how dirty restaruants really are) So when I do decide to go out for a meal, I’ll spend the extra money and go somewhere I know I will enjoy my meal without having to worry about the quality or cleanliness, let alone children running around.
Seriously though, children are a part of life and if you eat out THAT much to the point that it bothers you enough to make a post online regarding having a child-free restaruant, perhaps you should spend more time at home cooking with your wife and enjoying each others company. Otherwise, I say spend a little more money and eat at a finer restaraunt. (Not that there’s an abundance of them in IF, but there are a few that are worth going to where you won’t have this problem.)
What you should have made this post about is children at the movies. We went to see Premonition this past weekend and this lady brought her child in with her and this kid would not stop crying and acting up. This has happened the last 3 or 4 times we’ve gone. Usually the parent has the common courtesy to get up and go into the lobby until the child settles down. But this particular time the parent would not do anything. This kid must have cried for a good 5-6 minutes a half a dozen times throughout the movie. People finally started standing up at the end and turning around and staring at them. You want to stand up and say something, but I honestly thought the parents would get a clue.
I wouldn’t dream of bringing my child to a movie unless its an animated or Disney movie where there other children her age.
The time before that we went to see Saw 3 and a couple brought their children! I can’t even imagine someone being that ignorant! I think if the parents cant afford a baby sitter for 3 hours or can’t find a friend or family memeber to watch them, they need to stay home and rent a movie. It’s so disrespectful to make everyone else have to deal with that.
Aside from having to pay 20 bucks for popcorn and soda and listening to people talk all around you, we have to deal with kids crying and acting up. I’d rather stay home. I get a better surround sound experience at home anyways. It’s just sometimes you don’t want to wait 6 months for a movie to come out on DVD.
As for restaraunts, you take your chances there. I honestly don’t think it happens THAT much.
But I do believe it’s the parents responsibility to teach their children how to behave BEFORE taking them to restaruants and the movies. I’m sure sometimes its unavoidable, but I’ve seen my share of kids kicking and screaming in the middle of the ailes at WalMart and its those parents that have no control whatsoever over their children.
It all comes back to the “discipline debate”. Discipline your children otherwise they’ll walk all over you.
Or you can just expect that you’re going to have this problem each time you eat out at Artic Circle or BillyBobsBBQ.
I agree with the kids in movie theater’s part. We overpay for it anyways, then have to put up with the crying kids in adult movies, because the theater owner doesn’t have the spine to turn down a few bucks.
And the MPAA wonders why movie piracy is so popular.
Jeremy, have you tried pitching this idea of a kids-free section to your boss? You alone are in a unique position to sell the idea to the owner.
Please do ask your boss, and respond back what they said. Even if they say no (which I imagine they will), maybe they have a flawed logic that we can talk about here and work up a solution.
Despite the valid points on both sides of this debate, I would like to see it tried somewhere in town.
And what would be the age limit for such a place. I have been many restraunts where the worst behaved “kids” are the table of 18-20 year olds.
Now I know why I attend something like one movie a year @ the local Big Theatre.
Did somebody say they witnessed small children in SAW? Isn’t SAW a horrific, scary movie? WHAT mentality takes a small child to a blood and gore movie???????????? When I was a tiny bit of a thing my family members took my cousin and I to a DRIVE-IN theatre and I remembered being scared half senseless by the horrible sights I saw, and this was just “Dirty Mary and Crazy Larry”. NOTHING by today’s standards of violence.
Little kids usually can’t sit through a boring adult film, often they have trouble sitting through a loud, colorful, kid film. I think it is torturous to the kid AND potentially to the moviegoers that there be a small child in attendance @ an adult movie. It’s not necessarily all that spiffy for the adult who rings the kid either – most adults do know to leave when their kid makes a scene in a theatre, so the adult could end up missing a substantial portion of the movie (which probably cost twelve dollars to see).
I’ve yet to meet a kid who would gladly sit through “Pride and Prejudice”. I’m sure there is one out there somewhere, but my guess is there are one HUNDRED in a five mile radius who would enjoy such an experience.
I used to do community theatre and every parent I saw whose kid started acting up left. I’m sure there are some parents who don’t take the hint – for the record I would assume it’s perfectly okay to tap the adult of such a kid on the shoulder and say “Excuse me, please take your child out of the room”. If a person can’t figure it out for him / herself, then I think we have a right to speak up.
Kids in restaurants is okay with me. Kids in adult movies – not so okay. It’s probably unfair to everybody.
I think the person above who made the comment about “ceramic yard deer” has a good point. Sometimes we DO want more than is probably reasonable in a community – but I also believe that sometimes we DO want to have a right to state our boundaries – and really horrible behaving ANYTHINGS have a time and a place, and it’s not always in a place where people congregate for movie viewing or relaxing social / food time.
BALANCE – it’s still all about balance to me. I like balance, balance is good, balance is smart, alance is wise, balance allows for all to be reasonable, if they choose to be.
A few replies:
Uncle Buck – Note I didn’t call for the government to ban children in restaurants, but a private business catering to a growing demand. It’s see a need fill a need, not a mommy state.
J.H. Vance – Yep, I sure am me-centric, and to paraphrase the man in the mask, anyone who says differently is selling something. We’re selfish beings, us humans, simply because we’re subject to our own experience. I’m not anti-child, I’m anti-being bothered by other peoples’ children when I’ve chosen not to have my own. Children are great, but I don’t want to have to talk over some screaming baby when I’m trying to enjoy a glass of wine. Call me smarmy, or whatever insult you choose necessary, but it doesn’t change the fact that I’m a consumer and that makes me king in America. Same for you.
Roxy – the specific restaurant I had in mind was the Sandpiper. Sure, it’s not Spago, but it’s upscale compared to most anything else around here.
Joe – Your idea for a kid-free section is a good idea, though it would never fly in my particular business. Without giving too much away, there are too many kids and not enough space to pull off such a thing. However, it might be a stellar idea for a place like Chilis, Fridays, or another such place, right?
Chris – I hear ya about the movies. I think they should enforce, of their own will, the pg-13 rule – nobody under 13 allowed, dangitt. yeah, if I go see a Disney flick, I expect kids to be there – heck, it even adds to the experience. But if I want to see a drama or action movie, nothing gets more annoying than crying babies or noisy children. I’ve learned to go to the matinee when there are usually only 2-3 other couples there.
Jeremy, thank you for posting this again, and yes, the issue has been visited before.
There is need for a specialty restaurant like this. Doesn’t happen that much? HA! What is that much? How often do you go out to eat? My fiancé and I eat out at least four times a week and this happens 50% off the time.
Last Tuesday, we were having lunch at Johnny Carino’s. The table on the other side of the partition was filled with children under the age of 6. (Filled=5, yes I counted) Before we received bread at our table, one little girl started to scream. My fiancé looked at me and asked if I wanted to leave. We decided to stay because our drinks arrived. Before our salads hit the table, another child THREW HIS CUP OVER THE PARTITION and it landed on the floor behind me and splashed lemonade all over the back of my legs. I was livid. If I was the child’s mother I would have been mortified. I looked at the mother, waiting for the embarrassment to set in and then she told her child to sit back in his seat. THAT’S IT! No apology or even acknowledgement that her child just ruined my lunch. NOTHING! If it hadn’t been for the fantastic server we would have walked out and never returned.
No, it isn’t the child, it is the parenting or lack of parenting that is the problem. You ban children, you ban parents. I am MORE than ok with that.
Exactly what I’m saying! See, when I go to J. Carino’s, I want to drink some wine, eat some good Italian food, maybe even indulge in some Tiramisu with my lady. Eating out should be romantic and engaging, and children really, honestly ruin that experience. I really do not see the appeal in taking kids to a place like Carino’s – it’s not too ritzy, but c’mon. Kids should be in places like Leo’s Place or McDonald’s. Not our havens to get tipsy and eat brandy-soaked cookies!
If a business wants to institute an age requirement, that is their prerogative. I can think of only a couple places that would benefit from that. Collage, Sato’s, and possibly The Cellar.
Many places already have age restricted areas. They are called “The Bar” or “The Lounge”.
I’m not sure where I stand on this issue. I have 5 boys, and we eat out on occasion. I think the difference is that we actually discipline our children and expect them to behave. To this point, we have even had complete strangers come up to our table and give each child a dollar because their behavior was so good.
The key is discipline, which (sadly) many parents lack. If parents are letting the kids run wild, ask them to control their kids. Tell them the kid’s behavior is rude and is ruining YOUR experience. When they refuse, speak to the manager. For example, you could explain to the manager that if you threw your drink into the next section, he/she would certainly ask you to leave. Move your table, or leave the restaraunt.
I do think that you can do something about it, it just takes some initiative on your part. I know that actually speaking up can be difficult, but sometimes that what it takes.
I know that some restaurants in town already have a tendency to sit parties with kids in particular sections only. (One example is Texas Roadhouse, my wife and I’s favorite place.) I certainly don’t see a problem with someone opening a business to cater to a particular type of customer, I would even eat there if the food was good and the service was better.
A quick comment about the movies: my wife and I don’t take our youngest to the movies with us ever for one simple reason. The sound is so loud that it could damage his hearing, it nearly damages mine… I am horrified that parents would take their kids to a horror movie. That scares me more than any movie actually could. Talk about emotional trauma! So, my wife and I make it a point to not take our kids except to kids movies, I wish more parents would do the same!
I recently moved from Californnia, a place where families with children are not welcomed in homes (rentals), restaurants, etc. I’m very astonished to see that IF is apparently as liberal and anti-child as California.
I agree that children should not be taken to certain eating establishments / movies. However, the general attitute of most posts clearly indicates the anti-child / anti-family attitude that exists with many of you.
Finally, you are right. It is the parent’s responsibility to discipline their children and help them make correct decisions. However, it wasn’t that long ago that each of you were screaming, throwing food, and bothering those around you.
God Bless.
Now wait a minute, Conservative in IF, Jeremy was just saying that many people would like an area of restaurants reserved for adults only. Nobody is saying get rid of all children, or drive the families out of restaurants entirely.
Let’s remember it is important to take kids out to eateries so they learn the proper behaviors. If kids were never taken to restaurants, you would have teens/adults just learning how to behave there, and they would be even harder to control.
In fact the ‘adults-only’ section could work better for families also by keeping cursing adults away from our kids.
I also believe in the parent’s responsibility to discipline their kids, but how do you force it if the parent’s won’t?
I think if you have to tell a parent to discipline their child, it’s obvious they will not anyways. Or their efforts will be half-hearted, just for your show, and the kids will know it and continue with bad behavior.
I think the idea of an ‘adults-only’ section for over 18-ers will be a more successful proposition than a ‘kids-only’ section.
What is so liberal about allowing businesses to cater to its patrons? It’s actually a very classic conservative belief.
Again, I’m amazed at the amount of baseless insults that have come as a result of this post. Suddenly I’m anti-child? Please explain your logic here. I feel a bit like I’ve stepped onto the set of The Factor, where you’re either black or white, there is no compromise, and you’re either with us or against us. Look, I wish life were that simple – that you were either anti-child or pro-child, but I think we’re old enough to realize that’s all just smoke and mirrors. Life is complex, and our view of it should not be so simple.
I am not, again, anti-child. I would just love a night out without having to deal with other peoples’ kids. When I have kids, I would feel awful if my children were the cause of ruining someone else’s evening, and I will discipline my kids as such. Other parents don’t seem to care, so this is why I think kid-free restaurants is a good idea.
Joe, I’ve got to dissagree with you on your third paragraph. If you’re an ADULT out eating in a restaruant and you’re swearing loud enough for other patrons to hear you, then you yourself have not learned proper etiquite while out in public.
Most of the resturants stated here ie: J Corrinos, Chili’s, Applebees,etc are all family friendly. They all have baskets of crayons as soon as you walk in the doors for the kids to play with and people need to recognize this when frequenting these places. If you’re going to visit a restaraunt from 5-8 pm, you’re more apt to find families there with their kids. So the easist solution would be go after 8pm.
It all comes down to parents not disciplining their children. We as patrons DO need to speak up when somebody’s kid is running rampant through that particular dining establishment.
I do like the idea of the wait staff putting families together in one section and couples or groups of couples in another. That should go without saying in my book. But there will be times when that’s not feasible and is something we all need to accept and stop whining about. Todays generation is all about ME ME ME! There is no understanding and/or respect towards our fellow man/family these days.
imo
Wait, MY generation is all about me, me me? I didn’t want this to get personal, but you guys were the ones who started crapping on me here.
My generation is not called the “ME Generation”. That was, oh right – the Baby-Boomers! Oh, shoot, here we go. Right, it was the Boomer generation that gained a stellar reputation for being utterly selfish, shallow, and self-obsessed. And there is no better example of this than the current crisis in Social Security – people are living longer now, and there just isn’t enough money to keep the Social Security boat afloat. And yet, the Boomers, who are now retiring 25-30 years before they are dying, refuse to let the Social Security horse die because they’re benefiting from it. They’re all for shutting it down, but only after they’ve milked it for every dang penny they can get.
So don’t lecture me about selfishness. I could easily swing the judgment door back the other way and say it’s self-obsessive to let your children ruin other peoples’ nights out. So get off your high horse and speak with reason, not slander.
Chrisr67, I see your point and I agree with your point, but we can admit we do not live in a perfect world and adults swearing in family restaurants still happen, right?
Year ago I went out to dinner with my new wife and a bunch of old buddies in Boise. One of my buddies was/is the kind who swears every other word and can be loud and obnoxious about it.
Within five minutes of us sitting there, a lady in the next booth turned around and yelled at my friend that she had heard him saying the f-word loudly more than ten times already and she did not want to hear it anymore.
The entire restaurant was quiet and staring at us, and I could see my buddy about to lash back at this lady. I told him I thought he had been swearing loudly also, and he kind of deflated, and apologized. The restaurant turned back to their dinners, and our table was quiet and embarrassed. I was mortified with my new wife there.
When the ladies left, our server gave us a note from them thanking us for minding our manners.
However, it was a fluke. My buddy admitted he was about to launch into that lady, and what he was going to say would have made a bigger scene and probably would have gotten us kicked out of the restaurant. It was only a fluke that I said the right thing at the right second to deflate his attack.
I’ve been in restaurants many times where adults are swearing away, the restaurant staff do nothing, and I don’t feel like getting into an argument with a bunch of white trash. We just finish our meals quickly, meekly leave and do not go back to that restaurant again.
I think we do have a ME culture, and that is another issue. However the businesses that learn to cater to the ME-focused people (like a small section for adults only) will reap benefits.
So is this really a problem with irresponsible patrons or with restaurant managers who cannot find the backbone to enforce rules in their eateries?
Um.. I am anti-child. You can beat on me for a bit if you want, and give JeremyPlo time to heal.
I don’t get to eat out much, but when I do, I expect to have a nice evening with good food and good conversation, in a relaxing atmosphere for my money.
I can make restaurant-quality food at home if I wish. It’s not my only motivation when I go out to eat to just be fed.
I think it’s frankly, classless, to take young kids out to nicer restaurants, (such as Sandpiper, Jakers). I thankfully usually go to the Cellar, which is the best restaurant in town. I’ve never seen a kid there, and am thankful for it. They don’t cater to kids, and I think it’s rare that a parent will spring $20+ a pop per kid for a meal there.
I never go to Olive Garden, Roadhouse, Corinos, etc… any more. And one of the biggest reasons, is too many loud families.
There is nothing “anti” about this discussion. Period.
If I were the owner of a high end fine dining establishment that wanted to provide a elegant, quiet, and sophisticated atmosphere, I would adopt a policy like this:
Anyone ages 13 – 17 must be accompanied by an adult and under 13 are not allowed. Children are wonderful, but are also very unpredictable and outspoken about how they are feeling at the moment. My business could suffer because the atmosphere I want to optain could be compromised.
The debate isn’t really about existing family establishments and how people parent. People will always parent poorly and will always take their kids out to eat. The debate is about a business catering to a certain crowd that would enjoy an adult atmosphere.
Davin, why do you want the terrorists to win?
You hit the nail on the head Joe. It is about “white trash”. People who can’t control their language in public are pathetic. I swear just as much as the next guy, but there’s a time and place for it. If you can’t carry on a normal conversation without every other word being a swear word, then you’ve got problems. It’s one thing if you’re at the Frosty Gator drinking with your buddies, but when your at a family restaruant, that’s a different story.
I don’t know what kind of restaruants you’re going to where customers are swearing away, but I rarely see/hear it myself. (Unless I’m out having a drink with friends) But then again, I don’t go to Chili’s or Applebees to have a drink with friends.
Jeremy, I didn’t mean to offend you personally but this generation IS all about ME. Ask anybody older than 25 and they’ll tell you the same.
A most recent example, went to Olive Garden with my g/f’s family and we had a 10-15 minute wait. So we’re sitting there and this young guy comes in with his g/f, dressed nicely, yuppie type and goes up and asks for a table. The woman at the front desk tells him no problem it will be a short 10-15 minute wait and to please have a seat. He then proceeds to tell her “I don’t wait anywhere, especially not for a meal”, “I want a seat NOW”. The woman was taken aback, just as we all were. Who did this guy think he was? He continued to rant and rave and the woman telling her he wanted a table NOW otherwise he wanted to speak with the manager. The manager comes out, apologizes to the man and says “please come with me”. He then sat the man and his g/f down ahead of 3 other parties!
Well that did it for me. I don’t even like Olive Garden as it is, but I can promise you one thing, I’ll never go back there again. The manager was a putz and had no backbone and I wrote him a letter telling him so.
This is just one example, but I see it all the time. When this generation doesn’t get their way, they whine and complain until they do. They want everything and everybody to cater to them.
I’m not saying you’re this way Jeremy, but the fact that your complaining about kids in a restaraunt does say something about you. There are a number of places to have a nice quiet dinner with your girl. Like I stated earlier, either go to those restaraunts after 8 when the family crowd has left or learn to deal with it. A lot of times its as simple as asking for a quiet table for two in the corner.
I’m with WOwmv…..go to The Cellar. They’ve got the best food in town in the most romantic setting. I too have never seen children there. Try it sometime, you’ll agree.
I just don’t see anybody making a adult only restaruant around here, not in a family friendly town like IF at least. Bigger cities have dress codes in the more upscale establishments and that keeps the kids out, but until we get some of those here, we just need to deal with it.
Well, that’s where we disagree, on your last point. I strongly believe an adult-only restaurant would be wildly successful. Most people I’ve talked to agree with me.
And I object to the use of the “family friendly” terminology. My wife and I are a family, we just don’t have kids. See, I’m totally not against families – I love families! I love hanging out with my niece and my buddy’s little boy (who really likes coffee beans). Kids are awesome, and we could learn a lot from them. Just not how to enjoy a glass of wine and a quiet dinner. For everything a place and time. That’s all I’m proposing.
I am a mom of 4 kids under the age of 8. Sometimes, I don’t want to or just don’t have time to cook, and clean up after them! And yes, you can teach manners, but there is definitely a learning curve. Just expect some food on the floor when a highchair is present. We always tip well. That was the point of us going out! I don’t have to clean it up!
Yes, I could get a babysitter and go out. But, funny thing about kids, they still need to eat! So now, I am supposed to cook and clean, and pay a sitter?
Places like Applebees, Chilis, Jonny Carinos, Texas Roadhouse- all FAMILY RESTAURANTS- hence the crayons and kids menus. We don’t make more noise than is appropriate.
Good point about the hour. My kids are in bed by 8pm. When my husband and I go out on a date, we get a sitter, and make it a point to go later. I have not ever had a problem with other people kids bothering me. Maybe I am immune to kids, but even at Sandpiper, Jakers… I have always managed to enjoy my evening!
Aha, that’s the secret to avoiding the Olive Garden wait, be a huge jerk and demand your bottle now!
Yet another reason I won’t be going there anytime soon, if they cannot even stick to their ‘first come first serve’ policy.
Two points:
I think JeremyPlo’s consumer demand approach would go a long way to convincing some restaurants that are local – not chains – to having a 22 and older section or a 22 (college students and teenagers are far more annoying than toddlers) and over only night. I didn’t call you smarmy or anything else, J-Plo, but I have met many people that are very offensive regarding children, and that approach isn’t going to win over anybody to supporting an adults-only section.
My second point is this: I can’t believe that the only thing keeping you out of Olive Garden is the line…what keeps me out of there is the food! That there is even a line at that place only screams that IF needs better restaurants. Go for it, J-Plo.
I agree with the food comment regarding Olive Garden. I’m Italian and for that place to even THINK they have good Italian food is quite funny. I have yet to find a decent Italian rest in this town. J.Corrinos is better than OG, but it’s still lacking in good Italian cuisine with genuine flavor. But it’s kind of like Chinese food….it’s hard to find decent Chinese food in this town as well. Oh well….to give up big city living, one must sacrifice certain things. I can deal with it.
Jeremy -
I HAD to laugh (sympathetically) with your assertion that you were labeled anti-child by stating an opinion that maybe kids shouldn’t be in adult restaurants.
I was also labeled on this forum – I was called a rancher hater. THIS because I am pro-wolf.
Somtimes, Jeremy, responders attack the person instead of the content of a argument.
I say – when somebody does that, IGNORE THEM. They are most likely trying to get under you skin – so blow it off as the pathetic personal attack it probably is.
You already know my view on this topic – I think it’s okay, even perfectly wonderful, for well-behaved kids to be in adult restauants. That means – if your kid acts up, take care of it please. People are buying an atmosphere when they go to dinner @ a decent (non-Denny’s style) restaurant.
CHEEKY-MONKEY -
If you want pretty darned GOOD Italian, try Old Yellowstone Garage in Jackson. It’s the closest thinkg to Italian I’ve tasted since I was in Boston’s Little Italy.
Thanks Gypsy, I’ll have to remember that. We ate at the “Calico” (Italian) this past January while in Jackson and were really dissapointed. Very bland and overpriced. We can always count on excellent food from The Cadillac Grill though, as thats one of our favorite restaraunts to hit each time we go to Jackson. The Silver Dollar has decent food as well, but we’re always looking for good Italian so I’ll definately write this one down for next time.
I’ve always gone for the seafood in Boston as you just can’t beat a good lobster roll there, but I’ll have to remember their little Italy. I always loved the restaraunts in NYC’s little Italy though. It’s hard to find that kind of Italian anywhere else in the country.
Thanks again!
I am a gay man living with a partner and we have a plant for a child. We decided long ago that we would rather not have any kids (through adoption), but if we do, I’m sure there is a nice child that would be happy to come to our home.
We are also, as JermyPlo stated, a family. I don’t appreciate anyone saying otherwise. Besides, a family can be whatever you want it to be, right?
When I go out to eat, I expect my plant to obey all the rules I have taught it, especially when in public. My plant has a tendency to swear, but thanks to free speach, it can say whatever it wants. I don’t care if my plant offends other people.
It is each parent’s responsibility to teach their plant, dog, cat, lover, etc. how to behave. In addition, I think we should ask for a plant only section at food joints so that they don’t have to put up with all the humans.
Gee, I’m really glad we were able to have an adult, reasonable conversation about this without someone trying to be witty but only coming off as a complete self-righteous jerk.
Really glad that didn’t happen.
Now who’s calling names? Funny how Jeremy always seems to come full circle in these posts.
As for the gay man and his partner. It’s really special that you consider yourself a family, but basically you’re “a couple”. A “family” according to Merriam Webster, is “a basic unit in society traditionally consisting of one or two parents rearing their children”
I’m with the other posters, if you don’t want to deal with children in restaraunts, don’t eat there before 8pm. Most families don’t take their kids out to eat after 8pm so you’re not going to have a problem.
This town is too small for an “adults only” restaraunt. Plus I’ve never seen kids at “The Cellar”. Great food and atmosphere for couples!
What name did I call? I said he was being self-righteous. Wasn’t he? I don’t see myself calling names anywhere. Okay, so jerk might be considered a name, but wasn’t that a jerky post? Taking a real conversation about real issues and coming up with some absurd analogy that really doesn’t relate to what we’re really talking about?
His entire post was aimed at undermining my view that two people can be a family – not the actual issue at hand. Tell me that’s not a scummy move.
I agree about have a kids free section, I would also love to see a no fat people section. I would like to be able to go to a nice place to eat and not look across the room and see a 300lbs + person shoving in the food like there was no tomorrow. It really spoils a nice meal. Jeremy if you are a waiter I’m sure you see them all the time.
Ugh. I was afraid of this.
Well when I go to a restaraunt, I wanna just be able to eat my meal without looking over and seeing somebody eating with their mouth open! How about having a section only for people with manners? I mean if we’re going to go as far as to propose a seperate section in restaraunts for the over 21 crowd, where will it stop? We all deal with things we don’t like each and every day, but we learn to live with them. We don’t beat our hands on the table and say “I want it THIS way”! I think we could all learn to respect our fellow man a little bit more and stop sweatin the small stuff. Life’s too short to be worried about something so trivial!
If you don’t like eating around children, go to the restaraunt later when their all in bed. Or go to a more upscale establishment.
OR get this….you could even smile at those kids sitting next to you and think about when YOU used to be that age and how much fun it was when YOUR parents took YOU out to eat! Imagine THAT if you will!
I’m on the side of “kids should be allowed in restaurants”, but I am finding myself more turned off by this “side” of things. Attacking a person by belittling their argument with sarcasm is crappy strategy in my opinion.
Jeremy makes a decent point in this thread – and I say that as one who disagrees with his arguments in general more than I agree with them.
He makes some really decent arguments. I think this argument started out as a decent argument. Not a PERFECT argument perhaps, but an argument fueled with personal opinion, thought food, and reason. EXACTLY the sort of stuff the moderator of this board says he would like to see in our articles!
Jeremy works in a restaurant, he might very well see a side of “kids in restaurants” that we don’t see on a daily basis. I don’t agree wholeheartedly with his argument but I don’t belittle it either. He made some valid points. Could I or anybody else here have written it better? Who knows, becaue none of us DID. Jeremy did.
I don’t understand why so many people on earth feel that the most courageous way to argue is to attack. (Visions of a poorly run war comes to mind.)
Here’s a suggestion that’s up for grabs. If, for example, somebody hates to see fat people or burping people or plants, or families who aren’t traditional in restaurants – why not be courageous and start your own argument? If one gets started, I hope the respondants argue for or against without attacking the arguers choices – things are so much more fun when everybody involved doesn’t feel the need to defend, counter-attack, etc.
I don’t agree that a child free restaurant in a town like IF would be a great money-maker but I could be wrong, such a place could be fabulous for the community. The argument CAN be made that being in a family oriented city leaves FEWER places for those without children. In my experience it does – I’m a child-free adult who has lived in many places and I absolutely believe there are fewer adult-oriented spots to go for adults. So MAYBE – just MAYBE – Jeremy’s idea could be picked up by an entrepenteur who likes to gamble on such things.
Why not? Instead of ridiculing the argument, a smart and able person might pick up on it and start doing research. In fact, Jeremy himself might consider doing this when he and his wife graduate college.
Okay, feel free to flame the snot out of me now, call me anti-child – I am one of those people who can take a lot of verbal crap. Have fun. Or not. Either way, thanks for reading vmy thoughts.
Amen.
Let’s not blow up ideas into manifestos.
Being a discussion and conversational website, lots of ideas are exchanged. Idle wants are not the same as a crusade.
I still think an ‘adults-only’ section of a restaurant could work, if it’s even only three or four booths. I would like to see a local restaurant try it out. Pull the crayons from those booths and put in some nicer decorations, like candlesticks or whatnot.
Either the idea flops or is sustained. I don’t think if the idea worked that all restaurants would suddenly ban kids. It would just be a little niche thing.
Exactly. People seem to think I’m lobbying to ban kids from all restaurants anywhere and that I want to toss children into wood-chippers and kick puppies … oh, and I want the terrorists to win.
It’s a modest proposal. That’s it. I don’t have the money to invest in such a thing, but I would certainly support someone who might and eat at their establishment regularly.
Kid-free sections is a great idea – thanks for reminding me Joe. I had forgotten that one.
That is a great way to see how customers feel about it – if a business owner gets a lot of positive feedback then perhaps that owner could have an “adults only Friday” or something like that. This way we could maybe please both side.
Jeremy, on a different thread I was treated as if I want to kick rednecks. Like I said – you can’t stop the personal attacks coming @ you but you CAN take a deep breath and refuse to play (easier said than done – but worth it when you can manage it). Sometimes people who just want to attack feel angry and powerless in their personal lives so they come onto a relatively anonymous place like the internet and start barking and biting.
Take a deep breath and remember, there ARE positive disagreements that are much more fun to respond to.
Sorry if I sound like I’m behaving like a mama – I do not intende to lecture you, just share with you how I deal with this kind of thing.
Take it or leave it!
I like this forum and don’t want peoplto NOT write articles because they fear veral attacks.
Site Admin: Merged two comments made by same person but who tried to sock puppet two names:
Well Jermey, although I agree with you on some of your argument, it looks like you lost when it comes to the family definition.
You work at a food establishment. Doesn’t your place put families with kids in one area or try to isolate them?
I think you are taking things way too personal, Jermey Plo. Lighten up a little, it’s good for you.
By the way, the plant comment was very funny.
——————————
Jermey Plo, it looks like several other people have plans also. A non-fat person section, a “don’t eat with your mouth open” section, a no plant section, etc. You had to expect this with such a ridiculous idea you were suggesting.
I think if you want a kid free environment, you should go to a more expensive place or go after about 8:30 PM.
No offense intended, but in an area with so many kids (IF), it just isn’t a good business practice to have a adults only section when the demand is almost 100% family related.
Good posts, let’s all try to get along.
Like your moniker implies, let’s get real. This isn’t about whether a bunch of people don’t think my wife and I are a family (I really, really, really, Oh geez REALLY don’t care), it’s about preference and whether the private market will respond to a demand.
Look, if you want to use stupid analogies and jokes to make a point, that’s fine. But like you’ve said, let’s get real. We’re not talking about plants or fat people, we’re talking about children. So let’s keep the discussion on at least an 8th-grade level and actually talk about the subject at hand?
If there is a demand, the private sector will meet it. Simple as that. So, if there are enough me-centered, family-ruining, kid-haters out there like myself, the market will meet their preferences. And it looks like the rest of you others-centered, correct-family-defining, kid-lovers will have to get used to it. That’s the way democracy and capitalism works.
Now that’s the real deal.
Sorry jeremy, capitalism is the reason it won’t work. Nothing wrong with suggesting it though.
Why are you so upset?
Not upset. Not at all. Just tired of ignorance.
From comment #50:
“Sorry jeremy, capitalism is the reason it won’t work. Nothing wrong with suggesting it though.”
Actually, I think capitalism is the reason it WILL work, supply and demand and all that
Exactly my point, Rich.
Seriously though….if there were THAT much demand for it, I’m sure somebody would have tried it by now. I’m sure Jeremy isn’t the only one who hates dining with children in this town.
And since the idea hasn’t been instilled, the easiest solution would be what numerous posters have suggested: dine out with your signifigant other after 8-8:30pm or try a more upscale establishment.
Jeremy we’ve all offered suggestions to your predicament, but you don’t seem to care about them. It’s like you want it YOUR way or you’re not going to play anymore and you’re going to take your ball and go home. What do you actually think about the suggestions people have put on the table? I personally think those are reasonable suggestions you could try, but please tell us, is there some reason you could give us as to why you wouldn’t try the aformentioned suggestions?
I think instead of trying to have a restaraunt change their seating to cater to one or two couples, why not try the options the other posters have thrown out there. You haven’t really responded to the two main suggestions that a number of posters have suggested to you. Which is why I think, you’ve had so many sarcastic remarks/replies. It all comes back down to the “Me generation” point someone made earlier. You’re not really interested in other peoples suggestions or are you?
My wife & I always eat out after 8pm and we never have a problem with kids. Most families just don’t eat out with their children after 8pm. Which is why I just don’t understand, as it’s really a simple solution.
Okay, let’s talk about reality, Jimmy – where did I say “I’m not going to do that?” It would be wonderful if you could point that out. At this point, it seems like I’m having to defend the very nature of my proposition than the actual question at hand. We’re not talking about the actual concept, we’re dancing around the issue, making stupid comparisons, and smearing me instead of talking issues.
You seem to think that I go and sit in the middle of a group of kids and demand to the manager that they leave. Please. I already know how to avoid going to places where there are lots of kids – what I’m proposing is that someone capitalize on what is already happening.
Now, tell me, what is so unreasonable about that? I’m getting a bit tired of defending myself, and the only reason I’m doing so is so certain people don’t take my silence as conceding to ignorant slander.
The discussions and POV’s here were fine, but it is becoming a moot point until a local restaurant actually tries an adults-only section.
It would be much more productive for the people discussing this topic (both for AND against) to ask local eatery managers what they think of the idea.
Most of the people discussing these things are bound to eat out this week. Please ask this question, if they would be willing to try the idea, and why they would or would not think it would work. Please then comment back what their perspective was.
I think it would help all of us armchair speculators to hear from the actual restaurant managers in the trenches.
Geez…don’t get so bent out of shape. All I asked was why you didn’t acknowledge any of the ideas that a number of posters have suggested. You started a post where you wanted suggestions and peoples opinions. But then when people give you their opinions and you don’t like what you hear, you get all upset. Relax a little bit. All I wanted to know is why you didn’t respond to the suggestions people offered. There were two excellent suggestions made a number of times, but you keep pushing the point that the restaraunt change instead of you changing. This is all people are pointing out. But you seem to get too upset and take things too personally.
If peoples suggestions bother you this much, I can definately see how kids would bother you.
I give up.
See what I mean?
Where’s Rodney King when we need him?
“Rodney King! Rodney King!”
“What’s that mean?”
“He’s that guy.”
Name the movie, win a prize.
(Yes, this is how far this discussion has regressed.)
Yes, this discussion is digressing into a waste. I’m shutting off the comments for a few days. Please try to ask local restaurant managers what they think of an adults-only section. Please comment back in a few days when I turn the comments back on here. Thank you.
And this morning I realized we forgot to turn the comments back on here. Sorry.
Anyone have a chance to ask their favorite restaurant about the idea of creating an adults-only section?
What I think is sad as I read through this thread is that the suggestion to Jeremy is that people who don’t want to eat with children should have to alter their behavior rather than the parents of the ill-behaved children being required to modify their behavior or the manager modifying his by asking those parents with unruly kids to leave. Why are the managers in this area so willing to offend a couple by allowing a family to ruin their evening out but not vice versa? I would think in most cases, the couple is most likely to return and dine more often due to finances (this is a major generality) than a family with children. So I ask again, why don’t the restaurant managers want the business of the couple at least as much as they want the business of the family?
I think the reason Jeremy even suggested an adults only scenario was for the very reason that too many parents don’t deal with their children. They expect the waitstaff to handle them and for everyone else to put up with them. I don’t think anyone would mind dining next to well-behaved children.
Remember when I was a kid? ! ! Are you kidding? My dad would have knocked me on my in a flash if I had ever behaved the way some children do now and I think if you remember back, you’ll agree that we have lost the ability to properly parent our children. I don’t think a single poster here would object to a child misbehaving if the parents were trying to do something about it, even if they were failing. We all understand children need to be trained on how to dine in public. But “trained” is the operative word in this sentence. Just what exactly do you think these parents are “training” their kids to do?
You go, Jeremy! Great idea. Sign me up. And I have more kids than probably anyone one this post so don’t call me a child-hater! I love my kids. And I taught them how to eat out in public. Just because I think my kids are cute doesn’t mean you have to, and I recognize that and would never force their bad behavior on you. I took my children home with to-go boxes if they acted up in a restaurant.
Do the managers of restaurants not post here? I’m anxious to hear their responses.
We were @ Chili’s a couple of days ago.
The family that was seated in the table across and one down from us had FOUR kids. They managed to keep care over all over them – AND (this is a key in my mind) they were there when the restaurant wasn’t very busy).
The baby fussed and cried a bit, the three older kids bounced around and sang a bit, but I noticed the parents were doing their level best keeping after them.
In such cases there IS a bit of annoyance (when a baby lets loose with a blood-curdling SCREAM just as you’re about to take a relaxing sip of your margarita for instance) but – I do take in the “bigger picture” here, I see how it is obvious these people are making attempts to train their kids (the older ones) in proper restaurant behavior.
Like Inside Observer, I KNOW my parents would have not let me get away with awful behavior. I remember once when I was probably four, I was having a hissy fit and dad smacked me on the cheek then when that didn’t help he sent me out to the car (to sit alone) for a few minutes.
I understand that in our society today most parents would be afraid child services would be called on them for THAT behavior – but the point is – I do recall being expected to behave reasonably. Some kids today do not get that level of instruction, though luckily, as I just retold, many DO still get it.
I think Inside Observer made a great point too – dining adults should not have to overcompensate for unruly kids – PARENTS of unruly kids are responsible for that. Why on earth more managers don’t tell the parents of unruly kids to remove their offspring until they can behave in public is beyond me.
I am not a child hater either, but if somebody wants to pick that LAST part out of my entire reply and determine proof that I AM a child hater – have @ it! I have no desire to try to convince anybody otherwise of that which they want to be offended by.
Kids in restaurants are FINE and DANDY so long as they have been trained to behave reasonably well. Others – I’d just as soon boot their entire family out myself.
I thank goodness that one of our biggest annoyances in America is screaming babies in our restaurants, instead of worrying a suicide bomber may hit our eatery (like in Baghdad).
Just keeping annoyances in perspective.
In the military we had a saying:
“It’s only temporary.”
No matter how bad something is, it’ll only last a little while and you’ll be out of it. Better to keep your cool (or military bearing as we said then) than to let the little temporary things control your behavior and your reaction.
I respectfully disagree, Joe.
Our biggest annoyances are becoming more troublesome (Virginia Tech comes to mind, as does a president who refuses to listen to the wants of his people).
Small annoyances are a part of life, so it’s reasonable to try to figure them out and compromise enough to make all sides feel heard and regarded.
I STILL want to know if there will ever be a restaurant with enough jewelage to attempt a child free stance in this area.
I think a child free AREA would be more likely to draw all types while discluding none.
A couple things I saw today in other media sources regarding the angst of unruly kids in restaurants.
This New York Times Story describes restaurants that have tried to be polite in their strategies to get parents to control their kids, and the hostile responses from some parents.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/national/09bakery.html?ex=1289192400&en=b76b094150f30311&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
Today’s Post Register had an advice column where a father described overhearing a restaurant patron ask a server not to seat his seven children by him. The father got upset and confronted the patron, it was quickly diffused by the hostess. The guy’s wife told him he shouldn’t have made a scene out of it. The advice columnist, Amy Dickinson expressed her feeling that she also would not have wanted to sit next to his children, and described three common dining situations where adults would not want to sit near kids. She also pointed out the man was rude in the confrontation because the request was made to the server, and not aloud to the whole restaurant in an attempt to emberass the father.
In the NY Times article, it was interesting to hear how the whole cafe applauded when the owner kicked out a couple that were oblivious to their kids running across the room and slamming themselves into the display cases.
It was also interesting to hear how the owner described most of the people who complained about his sign as “former cheerleaders and beauty queens who have a strong sense of entitlement”, and that most of the people who do not control their children are the same types of people who use their cellphones in a rude public manner.
Throughout my college career, I have worked in many restaurants. Some very trendy, high class places and some not so. What I like about the higher class, is that people aren’t so willing to bring their children? Why? Because they are a distraction to everyone amd ruin other people’s dinner. In the less high class places, of course there are children. In Idaho, it seems people have gobs of kids. Personally, I loathe waiting on people with scads of children, I love children, but it seems impossible for parents with large numbers of them to control them and they most certainly lack manners. Just a note here, if you have a large number of children, do us all a favor and order take out or go somewhere the floors are already dirty and their mess can simply be swept off of the table. One restaurant here in town, two couples (very respectable members of our community)would bring their dozen or so very ill-mannered, obnoxious, maniacal children in and let them sit at different tables because not even they could stand to be around them. My boss explained that the children are allowed to behave like filthy little beasts at restaurants because they are not allowed to do so at home. I think that most children should not be taken out in public dining places unless of course it is a place where other people don’t care to enjoy themselves.
ditto to anonymous; I have several kids and I like to think they are well-behaved; they have good manners and know how to respect other people as well as themselves. That said, they do not belong in a higher-end restaurant. That is robbing every one else in the place from their enjoyment. If we can’t get a sitter, we stick to pizza places or eat at home, where I get to enjoy my kids to my heart’s content. I don’t think this should devolve into a “kids vs. no-kids” argument; I have great kids…would I take them to a movie geared toward adults? No, of course not. Should I take them to an “adult” restaurant? Absolutely not.
Good reasoning there, I never thought about that way, I wrote the anonymous post, couldn’t figure out how to log in. I have chilren as well, there is no way, if I wanted to enjoy a nice quiet dinner in a classy place, that I would take all of them. I might take one or the other but that is because they all behave differently. As a family thing, I would take them to a more casual place. I must say, that when my kids were little, and of course little kids make a mess when they eat, I WOULD CLEAN IT UP. I’m sorry, you can’t be so inconsiderate to go out to eat simply because you don’t want to clean up. Please, clean up your mess! It’s the most irritating thing to pick up food your kid has thrown on the floor! You wouldn’t let them do that at home would you? I’m all for not allowing children, especially those requiring high chairs, into nicer restaurants. But I do think that most parents would be extremely uncomfortable if they were the only ones who brought messy little children into a very nice restaurant. Most nice places refuse to have high chairs on hand for this very reason.
One other point my friends and I often discuss: why, as a Mom, would I want to put my kids into a situation where they clearly weren’t wanted?
Amen to Post 71. I have three children. We do not take them to fancy restaurants. When we do dine out with them, we ALWAYS clean up after them. The older two know better and even clean up after themselves, to the point we have to tell them in certain restaurants that they don’t have to take their dishes to the sink. I’m always flabbergasted at parents who let their kids make a mess at any public place.
I have 4 children of my own. I only take my children to family oriented restaurants. Never to say Jakers or Sandpiper or The Bistro. But however, just because the restaurant is kid friendly, doesnt mean Im going to allow them to be disrespectful of my husband and I or to the other patrons or the staff of the restaurant. If I have to discipline them in public, then the next time the family goes out, that child stays with a sitter.
My sister has 3 kids of her own. Our families are like night and day. I hate being in public in general with her family. But on this certain occasion. I went to Sizzlers with my kids and my sister, her husband and 3 kids. Her kids were rolling on the floor whineing about having to sit in the booth and they threw their food and jumped up and down on the seats. I was mortified. Mostly because my sister and her husband didnt do Sh!! to stop them. So I took it upon my self to discipline them. They listend to me, mostly because they were like What the Heck, somebody is disciplining us. This is new. But it wouldnt take long for them to act out again. So I told my sister and her husband to get their kids under control or I was leaving because I was too embarrassed to be seen with them. So then they “tried”. But shortly after they tried, I looked at my brother inlaw who was inhailing his ribs without breathing inbetween bites and watched him spit his food back out onto his plate because the meat was too tough to chew. That was the last time I chose to eat out with them. Majorly embarrased and they werent even fazed. Kids learn by example.
I love my kids dearly, but I TOO would LOVE LOVE LOVE an adult only restaurant. My husband and I do not get to have dates very often, he works about 70 hours a week, so our alone time is priceless. We would love to go to a place where we arent being disrupted by children and all the things that go along with kids or we would take the kids out with us or just stay home.
Kids are a great addition to any family but getting quality mom and dad time is precious.
Kids will be kids and thats whats great about them. But everyone needs quiet time. Even adults!
One more point, adults need to behave in public too and STOP HAVING SEX IN RESTAURANT BATHROOMS!!!!!!!!
I don’t think a separate section for children in restaurants would work for the same reason smoking sections don’t work – mostly it’s all in the same big room! You’d have to have a sealed-off room complete with soundproofing and that just isn’t practical.
Anyway the problem is not with the kids. The real issue is moronic parents who insist on letting their children behave like wild animals in public. That NY Times article (linked in a previous post) has some great examples of parents playing the victim by blaming the owner of the cafe for not wanting to tolerate their screaming, obnoxious brats.
Example:
“I love people who don’t have children who tell you how to parent,” said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two.”
Uh, excuse me Ali but you are a guest in someone else’s establishment and they have every right to demand you either make your kids behave like humans and not harass other customers or LEAVE.
This seems to be the prevailing attitude among many parents today and it needs to stop, yesterday. Why do you think there is so much rampant violence and crime today? Too many lenient parents, that’s why. This isn’t rocket science. It is however, a giant snowball that appears to be gathering deadly momentum as it crashes downhill taking us all with it. It’s time to nuke it. This trend can only be stopped if we as individuals start taking responsibility for not only ourselves but also those around us whenever necessary.
So complain to the management when faced with unruly kids (or adults) and assert your right to a little civilized peace and quiet. Eventually the pinheads will start to get it.
I think that there should be a choice there… I’m totally ready for it!!! Take the kids to McDonalds… not a place where you drop a 50!
I have to disagree with your Cortney. I really enjoyed it when my parents to my brothers and I to fancy restaraunts when we were young. Not only did it enable us to practice our manners in a fancy restaraunt, we also learned which fork was used for the appetizers, which was used for the salad, etc etc. Plus we were able to try all kinds of wonderful foods we wouldn’t normally eat during the week.
Of course our parents would never take us to a place like that if we acted up or didn’t behave like perfect little gentlemen.
On the same token, I also think there was a big difference between the way children were reared back in my day and the way their reared today. It amazes me to this day to see the way children throw temper tantrums in the middle of the grocery store aisles or at a restaraunt. We knew better than to act like that at home, let alone in a public setting.
So in regards to the original post about having a “kids free” restaraunt or even a special section in restaraunts for family’s with children, I have to say no, I don’t agree with that. It’s my opinion that if parents discipline their children correctly, teach them good manners and teach them how to act and/or behave in public, it shouldn’t even be an issue.
(nice to see these old topics open back up for discussion. at least until Joe gets the new topics sitting in the queue posted)
I think that a restaurant owner should be able to have the “no kids” option if he so chooses. I also believe that owners should be able to decide whether they want to allow smoking, but the law disagrees with me on that one.
There is no shortage of nice restaurants that allow kids, and I totally agree that kids should be taken to these restaurants and taught how to act.
Idaho Falls, like all cities is Idaho is very family oriented. The majority of businesses therefore, for their best benefit, cater to the family.
At least one diner in town is a family diner until a certain hour early in the evening; at that time it becomes “adults only;” and not just because they serve alcohol. They specifically kick the kids out, continue serving food, and continue serving alcohol because in their business evening and night hours they allow adult customers to smoke (which food establishments can’t do if they allow children in their facilities).
So for those wanting to dine in an environment without children, such a diner does exist; if you can tolerate cigarette smoke.
Where is this diner? Would love to patronize them.
Across from Tauphus Park and the cemetery. Don’t recall it’s name, or the time it requires kids to leave the premises. I think the outside it stucco and painted blue.
I’ve only been there twice, both times for dinner and with my family. The second time my daughter and her friend (both 13 or 14 at the time) and I were the only ones in attendance. They brought us menus, we ordered, served our beverages and then told us they’d have to give us our food to go because it was time for all kids to leave the restaurant.
Wha…?¿?
They explained their new “policy” to me, I explained it would have been nice to know that before we ordered, told them to cancel our order, paid for our beverages, and left. They then began putting ashtrays out on all the tables. I haven’t been back to the restaurant.
It’s the Blue Wave on Rollandet.
How about a surcharge on establishments that serve kids? Would help pay for additional work required to clean up after them. (restaurants, hotels/motels, movie theaters, etc.)
The Blue Wave, and many other restaurant-bars got caught up in the new law change a few years ago that doesn’t allow children into any smoking establishment. Before the law, these places allowed kids in the bar till eleven, I believe.
Their options were to either stop selling food and allowing minors in entirely to keep their “smoking” status, or keep selling food and allow smoking only after a certain time when it became a “no kids zone”.
well DUH!!! They don’t allow kids after at a certain hour because its a freaking bar! There are a dozen other “bars that serve food” in this town that are the same way.
It would be nice to go to a place that is brat free. Taking care of kids all day is very stressful, and a nice dinner with the mate would be a welcome enjoyment and stress reducer. Unfortunately, to many children haven’t been taught manners these days. I would really enjoy a nice quiet evening, then listening to brats run the establishment. There are plenty of kid friendly places to eat in town as it is.
Sage, the mjority of restaraunts ARE “brat free” as you put it, after 8-9 in the evening. By that time most of them are at home tucked into bed, so enjoying a nice evening out with your mate, without having to deal with whiny children, really isn’t as difficult as you seem to think it is.
Nice comment Sage! (not) It’s obvious that you don’t have children. I guess we should all be thankful for that….seeing your attitude towards them.
Although I’ve never heard people complain about children in restaurants in a face to face situation, or even as a nearby listener, I’ve read dozens of complaints about kids in public places (especially about them being in restaurants). Yet, I don’t recall a single incident regarding unruly children out in public.
Oh, I’m sure they’ve occurred, it’s just that they don’t bother me and I don’t commit them to memory. I most certainly don’t let someone else’s few moments of misery ruin my night or afternoon out.
Geez, some people…
Sure do save up a LOT of crap to complain about.
I do wonder. I’ve never worked in a restaurant, so maybe someone here will know. I know restaurants don’t have a “child zone”, but do they try to seat families in any specific area of the restaurant, or maybe try to seat people with children in the same areas?
I was at a restaurant with my daughter and 14 month old grandson over the weekend, and I was seated next to another table with a child of a similar age. It occurred to me that it would be a stroke of genius to seat all of the small, messy eaters near the same area for clean-up purposes.
I try to leave my kids at home when my wife and I go out to eat. It’s too damn expensive to feed them all. At family get-togethers and such though, I love bringing the kids and their loudest toys just to upset the whole establishment!
I do think kids should be taught how to act in public, and sometimes it becomes quite a circus. But if you approach it with a sense of humor, it usually ends well.
I am giggling over the thought of taking the little ones to a fancy restaurant and giving the a-ok to bring the noisiest toy they have…
=)
My kids are pretty well behaved, I don’t give them noise makers…felt the need to clarify, LOL.
Oh, I know, it’s still funny to think about. lol
My first REAL job, other than working on the family farm and babysitting, was as a waitress at the Cathay Cafe in Blackfoot in Blackfoot, ID from the time I was in the 9th grade through my senior year of high school. We had two different hostesses. A couple of ladies that had worked for Bill Hong for a hundred of years or more. When neither of them could hostess, Bill’s only daughter would fill in as hostess.
Nope, not once were families with children sat in specific areas: Regardless of which area of the restaurant they were dining: coffee shop, dining room or formal dining room. Rather, the size of their group depended on where they sat; as well as whether or not they’d made reservations.
Babies are cute, even though they make noise. Some of them spit up and require a little extra time cleaning after. None of the babies who “dined” in our restaurant made as much of a mess or as much noise as did the drunks after the bars closed.
Why don’t folks complain about the bar crowd? Because they aren’t out eating that late. What don’t the restaurants complain about the bar crowds like they do the children? The restaurants aren’t complaining about the kids or the drunks. They are all paying customers.
If people have such great aversion to other people then, they’d best stay home with a tv dinner.
I like the way you think Wendy, and I’m with you. As long as they’re footing the bill and not chasing other customers off (it takes a LOT to chase people off), let ‘em eat!
The aforementioned trip to the restaurant with my daughter and my grandson actually ended up with relatively little mess anywhere but on the table (which is easily cleaned).
I have to agree that no matter where we take my grandson (and he’s seen his fair share of restaurants) he doesn’t make NEAR the mess the bar crowd makes.
I haven’t been to the one a.m. breakfast rush for quite a while, but I have fond memories, that probably weren’t as fond for the bus boys.
Yea, I’d rather clean up after the kids….
When I go to Leo’s and spend $25 on pizza and beer I expect to hear screaming kids running all over the place. That is a place for kids.
When I go to Sandpiper and spend $200 for dinner and drinks I expect to hear loounge music playing in the background and adult conversation. That is not a place for kids.
Pretty simple, if I am dropping serious coin to enjoy a good meal with my family, I don’t want to hear a screaming kid in a high chair at the next table. I don’t think that is too much to ask.
This is a family-oriented area, it’s true, but that doesn’t mean that everyone has a family or that they want to hear yours. Nor does the staff.
Speaking as staff…if I owned a restaurant, it would be tempting to make it a child-free zone all around. Kids and manners….it’s logical that they don’t have them, what bothers me is the parents. Where I work, it’s obvious the minute a set of customers walk in whether their child is going to be one that I have to worry is going to do something to cause the parent to want to sue us…and if they don’t do that, then I place even odds that something gets drawn on, colored on, or broken.
Most restaurants are not built with kids in mind…and parents need to keep that in mind. Tables are dangerous, doors are rarely the sort that have a handle, and waitresses are trying to carry a lot of very hot stuff at once – they don’t need to trip over your three-year-old.
You know your kids…and you know yourself. If you’re the sort of parent who doesn’t give a care at all about the staff’s safety, your kid’s saftey, or the irritation level of other customers…do everyone a favor and patronize the places that cater to your needs, *not* diners and *not* nice restaurants.
In addition…don’t forcefeed your kids! I hated seeing an obviously ill child being told to eat every last bite just so he or she could throw up on my seats.
And ya know what those parents do…? They rarely help clean it up….they get the check and leave before anyone has a chance to notice…Until the next customers are seated there and *do* notice…
On that…I’ll end my rant with simply: Yes, there is a market for child-free restaurants or at least child-free seating in restaurants where it’s a possibilty.
Sure, there is a market for “kid free” restaurants here in Idaho Falls, Idaho. That’s why they are so popular. Or maybe not.
what about a cowboy free restaurant, they are the crappiest tippers ive ever come across.
Heh heh heh
Give peaches a bone. The server needs all the tips he or she can get.
If the Cowboys aren’t tipping you then, it’s cause you aren’t worth the tip. They are some of the most generous tippers in the tipper data base.
Chances are you need to review your customer social skills.
How much do you feel that a waiter/server should be tipped?
im dont want to draw this dicussion into something else, but i always take care of my customers, it’s just that cowboys(and believe me im not alone in that point of view) dont understand the etiquette of tipping. and a lot of people from blackfoot, or from other backwood areas as well……..give me people from new york anyday.
Peache, the persons in S.E. Idaho, who you refer to as “backwood” like, live in an dessert like environment, based on hardened volcano; not in the woods. Farmers, ranchers and yes – cowboys have helped to form, shape, BUILD what are now the towns and cities of S.E. Idaho.
I have no idea where your complaints of cowboys from Blackfoot and like cities come from (due to their unfavorable tipping standards – according to Peache). Having spent my years between the 8th and 12th grade in Blackfoot, while also working as a waitress, I have many fond memories of waiting on many cowboys. Matter of fact, my Father (who happened to also be one of the H.S. math and science teachers) is a cowboy; so is my brother. They, Dad and all the cowboys tipped very well.
How much does everyone think you should tip? Let’s say the service is good, the waitress/waiter is friendly (but not too friendly).
I’m not overly concerned about the service staffs friendliness. Going out for a meal isn’t precipitated with thoughts of wanting to exchange friendly conversation with the waiters and waitresses. As long as they are efficient, correctly take and deliver my order then, I’ll leave the customary 20% cost of the meal as a tip. If they’ve really put in a lot of time to assure my satisfaction (making sure my water glass is full, checking to see if I am satisfied with my meal and if I’d like dessert, etc.) then chances are I’ll leave a little extra.
If they are rude and the meal was unsatisfactory then, I’ll not leave anything. I don’t do that one penny thing. It’s condescending and speaks poorly of he or she who lays it on the table.
I usually tip about 15% depending upon service. I think tipping is getting out of hand. And yes, I have worked as a waitress. Waitressing was my second job, and I made more money there than I did as a secretary. And at that time, 10% was what was considered a good tip.
Do you tip all the other people who provide a service for you? How about the cook at the cafe if you liked the way the meal was prepared? Why should the waitress get extra for what the cook did? How about the paper boy/girl? Most of them get extra at Christmas, but how about every month or week or day? How about the grocery bag boy/girl that helps you to your car with your groceries? (I’ll admit these are getting to be a thing of the past, but there are still a few of them out there.) How about the delivery people who deliver furniture etc. to you? The rug layers? The mailman? Anyway, maybe you are seeing my point. Where do we start and where do we stop?
I agree, the average tip percentage these days is and should be 15% and exceptional service 20%. That’s how I tip at least. If I get really crummy service I’ll give 10% but I still give something as I know everyone has a bad day from time to time. I’m amazed at how many people hardly tip 10% or at all these days. It’s just downright rude and you can tell most of these people just don’t know good etiquette/manners.
I believe tipping is required in all instances when someone offers personal service to you. ie: haircuts, furniture delivery, cableman, etc. I don’t feel a tip is necessary for the mailman (except maybe a little something during the Christmas holidays) or a bag boy. (if they take it to your car that’s different)
They get paid for those services as it is.
But that’s my point CR. All of these people get paid for the service they are providing to you. Some better than others. I personally don’t think that a waitress deserves a bigger percentage tip than other service people. **Now before everyone jumps on that statement, please reread my post #109 and remember that I also worked as a waitress**
Ya’ll hate me already…
If I’m out eating without my wife, I’ll tip $2 – $4 regardless of the cost. Usually at a grease diner like Mitchell’s (which is fantastic and you should go ASAP if you haven’t).
If I’m out eating with my wife, she demands that I tip 15% on the bottom end, and 30% if the service is exceptional.
That 30% pretty much balances out my $2 to $4 stingy tips as far as I’m concerned.
Why would you tip a chef? That doesn’t make sense and it’s not required. As for your everyday tipping policy: how often do you have furniture or the cableman come to your house? It’s not everyday so how is that “out of hand”? How often do you eat out at a sit-down restaruant where tipping is required? For me personally it’s no more than once every 2 weeks or so. So again, how is that “out of hand”? How often do you have a bag boy take your groceries to your car? For me, never.
I get your point 217, it’s just not realistic imo. For me tipping is not “out of hand” it’s not used often enough especially in the restaruant industry where the wait-staff rely on tips. Waiters & waitresses get paid a lower hourly wage (often lower than minimum wage) than everyone else so why wouldn’t they deserve a higher percentage tip? That’s just common courtesy.
I’m paying for the food, not the waitress! Give me the option to take it to my table myself! LOL
In all honestly though, wait staff gets screwed. Taxed on normal income and tips. They can make some damn good money though, and the good ones do, which is why people other than school kids do the job.
You have that option, it’s called McDonalds or the Buffet.
The wait staff in the higher end restaurants do ok, it’s the ones that wait at places like Applebees, Chili’s or other grease pits like that who end up getting shafted. And more often than not those people work much harder because they have to deal with rude or no class customers and whiny out of control kids on a daily basis.
why wouldn’t you tip a chef? They are the one most responsible for making your meal enjoyable. I have tipped the cooks before if I have really enjoyed the meal even when I have felt that the service was poor.
Because it’s not a “standard” practice. Most chefs make very good money and don’t rely on tips like the waitstaff does.
You obviously can’t take a joke.
Speaking of options – wait staff has the option not to wait tables for $3.50/hr + tips. Those that can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen or grow old very quickly with the constant gripe of low pay.
If you’re not part of the wait staff, why do you give a damn about the wages? You shouldn’t, they chose to work for a very low hourly wage + varying tips. They can choose to do something else if they want a steady stream of income.
And in before “What if they can’t do anything else?”
Janitorial – $6.50/hr to $10.00/hr
Fast Food – $6.50/hr to $10.00/hr
Manual Labor (unskilled) – $7.50/hr to $12.00/hr
Line Worker – $6.50/hr to $10.00/hr
See a pattern here? There are plenty of jobs out there that require no experience and provide a steady stream of income. Why does the wait staff stick around? Because the wait staff is still making more than minimum wage, or they wouldn’t still be on the wait staff.
It’s a hard job without thanks. They knew that before they signed on. Complain about it all you want, it’s not going to change. Much like politics.
Yes, I have to agree with Marcus. When I was waiting tables, I was making below minimum wage, but with tips, my wage was more than I was making as a secretary (as stated in post #109). The work is hard, but overall the pay is good when you factor in tips, which by the way, a lot is tax free.
Oh tipping…what a wonderful topic.
A bit off topic, but I’ll roll with it.
(Oh, and by the way, just because a market hasn’t been tapped yet doesn’t mean it isn’t there…In response to the previous discussion.)
I tip whatever I can afford to at greasy spoons and other “lower end” restaurants because it’s that waitstaff that needs the most help.
At higher end restaurants, I tip 15-20% unless what the waitstaff provides is exceptional.
At NO TIME do I tip less than 10% because many places around town require the waitstaff to claim 10% of their total bills as tips received, which may or may not reflect the reality of the situation. Even if the waitstaff is insufferable to me, I will not tip less than that if I have ordered anything at all (if I haven’t ordered, I’ll just leave. Chances are you’ll know whether it’s insufferable long before you order
).
This is my policy for two big reasons:
1 – At one point I worked as a hostess for a local greasy spoon and one of the waitresses had been seated with a table of about 10 people, a family of varying ages. Because of teh size of the table and a lack of available waitstaff at the time, this was the only table she had that hour (plus some). Their bill was just over $100 and they left no tip.
This was a place that required claiming 10%…as such, that waitress lost money for an hour’s worth of hard work.
So reason number one: I have no idea how the rest of that waitstaff’s day has been and I don’t want to the be the reason the next patron has a bad experience (not to mention…waitstaff *do* remember you and your tipping practices and *will* act on them…).
2 – Based on that same experience…I would never consider it reasonable for my employer or co-workers or anyone else to dock my pay for an hour for any reason, including that I’m having a bad day, or just on a whim.
There is the caveat that in the serving world, if you don’t make at least minimum wage, the employer has to give you at least minimum wage…but most of the waitstaff I know don’t know that, and most wouldn’t bring it up if they did know because management in food establishments tends to be…less than receptive . They will follow the rules, yes, but there are a hundred and one ways to punish someone that are perfectly within bounds.
Do I think tipping has gotten out of control? Yes – but it always has been. It is an antiquated system that allowed employers to pay women less so that they would pay men more (because they were more often the “providers”). It is inherently unequal *now* regardless of who is actually working. If a person is doing a good job at what they do, they should not be being docked $2 and hour just because they happen to have a job that usually recieves tips. It doesn’t make sense.
And until someone stands up for the industry (which won’t be the employers, and most of the employees don’t have time to write their congressmen…the lower-end workers are often rushing off to another job, so it won’t be them either. And the high-end workers are making enough to keep them from caring about anyone else), I am not going to keep allowing the system to screw them on my watch.
My two cents.