Do Not Knock List Needed in Idaho Falls

The “no soliciting” signs don’t work anyways. I’ve lived in numerous apartments in a few different cities that have had “no soliciting” signs posted at the entrances. The salesmen, and the bible thumpers still came, so obviously they either don’t know what “soliciting” means, or they chose to ignore it and come a’knockin anyways.

I can’t stand it when someone comes knocking on my door unannounced. And some of them DO come after 9pm, usually the Mormons or Jehovah’s witness. All of my friends and family know to call me first before just “dropping by” for a visit. So when somebody comes knocking on my door that I’m not expecting, I don’t even bother getting up to answer it. It’s still irritating though having them ring your doorbell 2 or 3 times.

At my work there is a sign on the building stating No Solicitation. Yet, everyone from those who want to do cosmetic make overs, weight losee, to sales forces, to recent graduates from some regional schools feel free to walk in at any time. After all, aren’t those of us paying for that building just waiting for these folks to come walking through the door and offer to sell us most everything (or employ them)?

From their perspective, people who disregard the boundaries of others don’t care how much confusion and chaot at existing businesses. If they did, they wouldn’t violate the steps many of us have taken to protect ourselves from unwanted intrusions such as these.

One person in particular tried to gain access to me/the office/building last fall. It was after hours and all the doors were locked. This ambitious sales woman had not only left her cards under the all the employees and customer’s windshield wipers, she had attempted to leave information at each offic; however, it appears she wasn’t successful.

Working late and having my light on, I found my windows being pounded by this woman’s fists, trying to gain my attention. I obviously did not appreciate her over-the-top efforts to get into a locked, secure building after hours - I had work to finish.
Finally, after about 45 minutes, she gave up, as I ignored her and turned a CD player much louder.

Being the wise “semi-detective” that I was (I picked up one of her 2-3 dozen cards at one of the outside doors) where she dumped them and I decided it was time to attempt to teach someone a lesson. I decided to call this woman to ask about her business. After all, her card said to call anytime.

She wasn’t too nice to me at 2:00 a.m. when I called her and told her I was calling about her cards dumped at the door. She didn’t have much to say as I told her I could have just as easily called 911 and had her removed.

When I reminded her the building was not a place where she could attempt to find potential clients, “This is a free country and I have the freedom of speech!”

HUH?

My response was she did indeed have the protected freedom of free speech in the U.S.; however, this freedom did not give her freedom to trespass on private property. Thus, she could not advertise her business especially where it was clearly posted that “No Soliciation was Allowed.”

Somehwere during her next comment I hung up. I really did not wish to know more about her business, I was simpnly trying to teach a lesson - at least about my building. By calling at 2:00 a.m. - the end of my work day- I woke her up. I hoped to impress upon this person that while she thought she could enter my building at any time and it didn’t “bother anyone,” perhaps by me awaking her at 2:00 a.m., she would realize that I wasn’t hurting anyone, just calling her number at a time when I was free.

She hasn’t been back to our building.

So, will you be taking this petition door-to-door?

I think we need a “No, Jeremy Doesn’t Want to Go to Grand Rapids or Southern California to Sell Pest Control and/or Home Security Systems, nor Does He Want to Participate in any other Pyramid Scheme” list. Being a college student is exhausting just having to fend off these ambitious sales kids who want to make commission off of getting me into their little sales cult.

ps I think this is a good idea.

Fortunately for me, the neighbors have ‘warned’ the missionaries about the heathen that lives in their neighborhood, so they leave us alone. The salesmen come by once in a while, and after I ask if I can come to their house and wake up their kids, they usually get the hint. The pushy ones get pushed back, but not literally.

I don’t think that a ‘no solicitors’ sign would work. Back when I was a mormon and a missionary, we were ‘encouraged’ to ignore them, then plead ignorance if called on it. I would definitely sign up for a no-knock list, unless they came to my door to ask me to sign it. (It seemed that the humor of Davidson’s post was missed by some)

We are also on the ‘do-not-call’ list, but still get calls from student loan consolidation people. They even bypass the block. The last conversation went like this:
my wife- why did you pass my telemarketer block?
them- we aren’t selling anything, just offering student loan consolidation
my wife- wow! your loans are Zero percent interest?
them- well, no, but…
my wife(interupting)- THEN YOU’RE SELLING SOMETHING!!!! Don’t call me again!

That little gem actually got them to leave us alone.

I have no problem saying no to people at my door. I have no problem saying no to people calling on my phone.

The issue is that we have a do not call list for one aggravation but not the other.

I guess we are reading these comments differently, because I am reading that many people feel there is not an effective way to stop these solicitors using conventional methods.

As I understand it, the national do not call list is funded by the marketers that have to pay for it. My intent with this proposal was to make it fund itself also, rather than increasing our taxes.

During my search, I found Massachusetts moved to enact this kind of regulation after three D2D salesmen gang-raped a lady at her home.

Do we have to wait for a similar tragedy to happen in IF before we take action?

Ouch, no I definitely did not mean to make it sound that if you weren’t for the idea then you were supporting the other. I am sorry if you and anyone else read it that way. I just wanted to note a story I had read in my search, sorry the two distinct points ran together in that manner.

If Parma, OH has found they can only restrict commercial knockers, then that is great that we can learn from their mistakes.

I threw out the whole enchilada here, but I would find a do-not-knock list for just commercial purposes to be a great compromise.

Would the narrower ordinance be a more acceptable compromise to others?

Don’t even need a big dog. Our 11-pound dachshund has scared off her share of trick-or-treaters with her behind-the-door barking.

Walter: Why not see what he’s sellin’?
Hub: What the hell for?
Walter: Well what’s the good of having all that money if you’re never gonna spend it?
Garth: Could be the kid has a point.
Hub: Well. We’ll see what the man’s sellin’. THEN we’ll shoot him.
Garth: Good plan.

Guest_1948: Hopefully the bite of the significant fines would keep them in line.

Who would make sure it was being enforced? I think the city police enforce all ordinances, don’t they?

The list can be easily setup in a simple MS Access file. It would take all of 10 minutes to set up and train 3 employees on it (maybe less since they might already be familiar with Access).

How would it be maintained? Remember I said the list would be republished (printed) each month from the Access db by whatever city employees currently dispense permits.

And remember I said the period would be for two years. Even a one year period would do the job and still keep the db lean.

I do not understand why you think it would be ‘impractical’ and unenforceable? Does my explanation answer that adequately?

Honestly….I don’t think I would be “better off” with someone trying to sell me the latest Hoover Super-Sucker vaccum cleaner OR the latest Jehovah’s Witness pamphlet. I work my butt off 10 hours a day 5 days a week, the last thing I want is somebody knocking on my door trying to sell me something. I just want to relax with my family and enjoy my evening without being interrupted!

So, to answer your question Manybees….YES, I DO want to live in that world! We’re not talking about regulating every little “human activity”, we’re talking door to door salesmen/women.

After thinking about this for a while, I have to say I don’t have any trouble with setting something like this up. Now whether or not there’s enough gumption in this group to take this beyond the discussion stage, I’ll wait and see. (And since I live in Sugar City, IF putting in such an ordinance won’t help me out, so don’t look at me to start anything.)I’m not bothered by door-to-door folks, but obviously, some people are.

I’d like to make one distinction, however, between a do-not-call list and a do-not-knock list. I can look out the window when someone knocks at the door, and if it’s someone I know I don’t want to talk to, I don’t have to open the door. I can filter without assistance. On a do-not-call list (which I admire, and which my wife has used this spring to get Dish Network to stop calling us) I have no way of knowing who is calling. I don’t have caller ID — because that’s an added expense that sellers can manipulate or get around anyway. So let’s call them peas and Chinese peas. Both peas, yes, but not in the same pod.

I’m sure you all remember the days before caller ids when you rarely had any clue at all who you would be talking to, but just about everyone picked up the phone when it rang just because that’s what you did. Now the phone rings and we look first to see who’s calling and maybe, we answer… The door is just another portal to the outside. Who says you have to open, or even look for that matter? If your at home and you’re enjoying quality time after work or with family or friends or whatever, just treat the door as you would the phone. What’s with the old tradition of answering just because someone knocks anyway?
One more thing; if this ordainance is to be clock driven, ie. 7pm to 7am, do you seriously have that many people beating at your doors during those hours that they are a continual nusiance? I know for a fact that Mormon missionaries are finished working at 9pm each night and rarely if ever are they out tracting door to door in the evening. They are usually teaching appointments at those hours. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Jehovah’s Witnesses out late and only a couple of times has the vaccum cleaner salesman bothered in twenty-five years; oh, but there is that danged Avon rep.. I’d be on my wife’s good side if I started turning her in everytime she came after legal hours, yeah, right!!

Honestly, I did not mean to suggest that you “hide” from these people; simply that you can be unavailable to them if you wish to be. I’ll admit; I would be irrate if solicitors were as big a distraction to my peace as they seem to be to some and I might even be onboard with the idea; but they’re not and I don’t see it. Am I fortunate enough to be living in an area of the community that they haven’t found? Is it a daily problem, or weekly, or less? You said the Sunday episode finally set you off but I think your original post suggested that weekends were exempted?
Don’t get me wrong. I’m by no means against the concept of limiting outsiders access into my private time and/or world, but more government regulation, whether it be local or otherwise, just grates on me and wonder if there isn’t another way that we can solve these problems without trading in freedoms?

I stand corrected. The reason your articles are good Joe, is because they are thought provoking. So I’m here thinking about how to restrict peddlers in IF without government regs and I remember seeing Green River Ordinance signs posted in different small towns when I was a kid. A search on the web was really enlightening,as borrowed from the Municipal Services and Research Center of Washington website:

Municipal ordinances which prohibit solicitors, peddlers, and itinerant merchants from calling on private residences for the purpose of peddling or soliciting without the request or the invitation of the occupant are sometimes referred to as “Green River” ordinances (from the case of Town of Green River, Wyoming v. Fuller Brush Co., 65 F.2d 112 (10th Cir. 1933)). “Green River” ordinances entirely prohibit and declare the practice of uninvited house-to-house canvassing to be a nuisance and misdemeanor punishable by fine and imprisonment (Rhyne, The Law of Local Government Operations, pp 495-496). Such ordinances have been upheld in the past by the United States Supreme Court. These types of ordinances have been ruled unconstitutional when they prohibit religious or noncommercial door-to-door solicitation. The U.S. Supreme Court on June 17, 2002 by a vote of 8-1, invalidated a Stratton, Ohio ordinance that required canvassers to register and obtain a permit from the mayor’s office before going door-to-door promoting any cause (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of New York, Inc. v. Village of Stratton). The Court held that the ordinance violated the First Amendment as it applied to religious proselytizing, anonymous political speech, and the distribution of handbills.

Even though the 1951 United States Supreme Court decision has not been expressly overruled, more recent cases suggest that a total prohibition of door-to-door solicitation would be unconstitutional and unenforceable. In Project 80’s Inc. v. City of Pocatello, 942 F.2d 635 (9th Cir. 1991), a city ordinance prohibiting door-to-door solicitation unless the homeowner places a “solicitors welcome” sign on the house was ruled an unconstitutional infringement of free commercial speech. The court concluded that the ordinance did not provide the least restrictive alternative available to accomplish the legitimate governmental interests of protecting residential privacy and preventing crime. The Federal Court decision invalidating the Cities of Pocatello and Idaho Falls’ ordinances was the second time the Court had invalidated the ordinances. The 1991 decision was the result of a remand order by the United States Supreme Court of the earlier 1988 decision in Project 80’s Inc. v. City of Pocatello, 876 F.2d 711 (9th Cir. 1991), vacated and remanded, City of Idaho Falls v. Project 80’s Inc., 493 U.S. 1013, 110 S.Ct. 709, 107 L.Ed.2d 730 (1990). Similar decisions have been reached by the Ohio Court of Appeals in City of Tiffin v. Boor, 109 Ohio App. 3d 337, 672 NE2d 200 (Ohio Ap. 1996), the Oregon Supreme Court in City of Hillsboro v. Purcell, 306 Or 547, 761 P.2d 510 (Ore., 1988) and an Illinois Federal District Court in Green v. Village of Schaumburg, 676 F.Supp. 870 (ND Ill., 1988).

Apparently it would be fairly easy to do a ‘do not knock list’ for commercial solicitors in the city, but not so for anything else. Would that sufficiently accomplish your goal?

Wow, indeed. Great research, manybees.

A do-not-knock list / green river ordinance just for commercial knockers would be plenty for me to be happy. I can understand the first amendment issues related to the other activities.

Am I being naive in thinking this db could be run simply in Access? The only fields would need to be date entered (to calculate date expired from list), name, and address. Would more fields be needed? I don’t think even a phone number would be needed.

The city hall could have a simple form to fill out, and the website could have a simple form to submit.

I guess I am one of the lucky ones. I live on the west side of Idaho Falls and I cannot recall the last time I had a someone come knocking at my door who I didn’t know. I’m just surprised Joe and you others have so many solicitors/mormons knocking on their doors that it has become such a problem. I have never had a some strange mormon bishop come to my home, ever. Do you guys have some kind of mark on your homes? lol

Amen!

That is a problem. This is where it would become a law enforcement issue, and why it would be critical for homeowners try to collect as much sales literature, business cards, etc.

NufSaid, I can appreciate that, but I have to ask how you deal with telemarketers?

Same way, just keep saying no to all of the phone calls? Or have you done anything to try stopping the calls?

I see it as the same issue. I can say no all day each time, but I get tired of being sold all the time at my door on my property.

as I see it, do not call and do not knock is way different.
The difference is in the medium used.
Telephones, cell phones and electronic communcation is not tangable, you can’t touch the airwaves, so just turn off the ringer or unplug the phone and you don’t know if anyone is calling and bugging you.

The front door or window of your home is physical, people are standing there banging, no way to unplug the door or put on a silencer.

So to answer your question Joe, do not call vs. do not knock are very different. The solutions will have to be very different as well and maybe a little creativity. Why not find your own solution within the law of course.

Maybe put an electric fence around your property with an eye and brain central intelligent system (must be programed to know the difference based on the information the owner of the home plugs in) and if it is a strange stranger then they get an electric stun/shock, if it is a friendly welcomed visitor then no stun/shock.

That way you, the owner, get to be in control of who knocks and who doesn’t. The only way to know if unwelcomed unfriendly knocks are attempted is the wailing of pain from the electric stun/shock.

Unless of course there is a city ordinance that prohibits an electric fence around your property. And, that ordinance might not be too far off, after all if someone wants to put in a do not know ordinance, then they might put in a do not shock ordinance, and then a do not cry outloud ordinance, and a do not whine ordinance, and a do not tattle-tail ordinance, and a do not complaine about a do not knock ordinance, which could lead to a do not live happily ordinance and do not try to solve your own problems ordinance. And this could lead to…

Cheers!

Actually Joe, I have a little bit of fun with the telemarketers on the phone and quite enjoy their calls when I get them. I simply tell them no thanks. If they persist, then I try to sell them something and get their personal information. They get off the phone pretty quick.

I guess I just don’t buy the idea that we need an ordinance or municipal/state intervention every time there’s an inconvenience in our lives.

Brian: you make a great point, and there is a gray area of relying too much on government to take care of our own problems.

When would you agree an ordinance is needed?

I think one is needed when a problem becomes rampant or larger than individuals can easily take care of it.

In my case, where salespeople come by after 9pm and before noon on Sundays, I’ve reached that point.

How often has that happened, Joe? For me and mine, I can count on two fingers the (Saturday) afternoons we’ve had salesmen come to the door in the past year. And though we enjoy the no-call list, even before it was in place, we got maybe seven or eight sales calls a year. Not a big nuisance in my book.

Anonymous there is a city ordinance against electric fencecs in IF, I had trouble early 90,s law was on books then.

I may be way out in left field on this one, and that is okay. We do not always get our way.

We’ve heard many valid arguments and good logic, but I thought I would make this week’s poll on this subject. At least we will get a better sense of what people think on it, for or against.

I try to write these poll questions to not be favored to my position, but I’ve read some past polls where I can see I missed neutrality. Hopefully the poll answers are fairly balanced this time.

I’ve said more than my fair share in support of it, so I will shut up about it unless it does get picked up as a potential ordinance.

this may be of some interest to you people who have issues with solicitors.

At my old school we used to go door to door selling honey(a type of solicitation). however some of the students had the “grand” idea of going to a house with a no soliciting sign and wrecking the mailbox(ie writing the f word) and\or ringing the bell and running like hell. i haven’t gone to that school for a while now but i sometimes hear rumors that this ring and run thing is still in operation. to all those who want to stop those annoying ring and run tactics chop all trees and shrubs down and put in lawn or decorative rocks(to improve lines of sight. one kid got caught in the act because the owner happened to be at the front 2mins after the bell rang and saw him on the sidewalk. Busted!!! ) or get a survellance camera and install it at the front door. rumor has it that the #1 rule is that you are not supposed to bee seen when you pull off this type of stunt. these 2 tips will help stop some of the stupid pranks these junior salesmen are pulling off. btw i was never part of this

i think this is called disturbing the peace. but some students think it was is and will continue to be the best fun on the job ever. i dont think it was fun at all

one student reported that when he did this some guy came out 4 mins later and yelled “who the F did that” or so goes the rumor
no soliciting signs are what the so called honey vandals use to pick their targets

Ok, first off, you ARE one of those cranky old men who chase the kids off your lawn. You, by stating your incredibly ignorant opinion that door-to-door salesmen can’t understand the word soliciting, really offend those of us who aren’t out to scam anyone or “take” people. You are the type of person that a door-to-door salesman probably wouldn’t even bother with. We know your kind, and we try to avoid you. Some of us are actually descent people making a living just like the rest of the world. I work for a company that delivers wholesale steak, chicken, and seafood nationwide to people who otherwise would have to spend a lot more money and waste a lot more time going to the grocery store. There are quite a few companies that do this, some of which are actually a scam, but the company I work for is a little different than those. The prices we offer our products for are ACTUALLY lower than the grocery store and we DO offer free delivery. The reason we can do this is because we ARE the distributor. There is no middle man. You save money. I am the regional sales representative for our company. I travel between the 4 offices in this region (Grand Rapids, MI; Columbus, OH; Lexington, KY; and Fort Wayne, IN) promoting our company to prospective new customers. We also have offices from Newburgh, NY to San Diego, CA. We are nation-wide from coast to coast. Nevertheless, that is my job. I go door to door drawing new business for the office in this region with the least amount of production. If deliveries start to subside, I get more customers for that office. I am not some toothless, crackhead gypsy. Our company has a higher reputation than that. I graduated high school with high honors, and I am an A+ certified computer tech. I decided to get into sales because I couldn’t handle the boredom of computer repair anymore. It may be a hard concept for YOU to understand, but I LIKE meeting new people and being able to help people, rather than suclude myself from the world and live under a rock, like yourself, hoping nobody will ever stop by to “bother” me. People like you, who think that all salesmen are the same, and lump us all together only prove your ignorance and fear. If you really don’t want a product, say no. That’s it. Just say no. Don’t be a jerk about it. Most door-to-door salesmen would more than likely leave you alone if you are at least nice about it. When you are a complete [edited by site admin] and you talk down on them like they are idiots….like your entire article does, it only makes them want to treat you the same way. For those of us who make their living selling a good product at a reasonable price, you are insulting, rash, and just plain ignorant. Thank you for your time, and I am SO sorry that something in your past has made you into the scared, seclusive little person that you are. It is a very sad thing when someone is so emotionally and psychologically inferior that meeting someone new scares them. Anyone wishing to directly contact me, no matter which side of the fence you are on, feel free to email me at lets_do_things @ myway.com

Get off my lawn then! 8^) I actually have never told kids to get off my lawn BTW, nor any salespeople. I just wish they would not approach at all. I guess you still think I’m antisocial, despite this discussion reflecting nothing from my personal relationships. Whatever.

Okay, so I reread my article, wondering if it was one of those where I went off the deep end. This is not one of them.

I think I presented some objective reasons why I don’t want to be bothered, and suggested reasonable solutions. I don’t see where I acted like “… a complete [edited by site admin] and [talked] down on them like they are idiots…”, but please point out where I did if you feel so strongly.

You seemed to miss my point that the trouble is not that I dislike saying “No” to someone, I hate being interrupted to have to listen to your pitch and say “No” (and usually not once but several times before they leave).

I appreciate the salesman’s point of view, but my point is that private citizens on their own private property should have the right to privacy. How can someone argue against that?

Mr. Door to Door - do you drive a white mini-van? If so you have visited my home and I did not appreciate your attitude, sales “pitch”, personality or anything about your selling technique whatsoever. Sorry, but professionalism is not your strong point and you quite frankly gave me the creeps.

If you are not this person selling meat from a white mini-van, my apologies. It just seemed weird to me to be selling meat out of the back of a van.

If your company is so great and inexpensive, why don’t you offer a company name, website, or brochure we can link to?

I simply don’t answer the door unless I know in advance company is coming. I don’t even like friends showing up unannounced much less someone interrupting my evening for something I don’t want. As for unavailable or restricted calls, they go straight to voicemail.

I had a young woman with the accent lately on the west side of town. She was selling educational materials, and I didn’t come downstairs to open the door, just told her I was not interested while leaning out the window upstairs (I have one of those crappy split level houses).

She just came to the yard under the window and opened her binder and proceeded to try to make her sales pitch there. I told her I was not interested and didn’t have time to talk, but that wasn’t good enough for her. She wanted to keep going.

She finally got the message, asked about my next door neighbors, if they had kids, etc.

Persistence usually pays off for these types of sales people. And no doubt they get some lonely people, some people who would make a purchase just to have the company, and some who would buy just to get them to go away.

The only time we’ve bought from the door to door guys was one fellow who was selling small metallic pictures. (Artsy stuff, fantasy dragons or eagles/wolves, etc like you can get at the fair). He had the supply right there, we bought several from him while he was standing on our doorstep.

I don’t let any salespeople inside, ever. I’m too paranoid that they are scoping the place out for a future burglary, or that they might be dangerous.