Discipline Debate: Should spanking be outlawed?

Spanking doesn’t encourage respect for others or for rules…it only encourages fear and creates a cycle of abuse.

It teaches children that hitting is an appropriate way to deal with a situation. And it’s not.

You can’t hit your spouse, your boss, your co-workers, your friends, a slow waiter or waitress…just because you don’t get your way. You have to find other ways to deal with them. And parents have a responsibility to teach their children those alternatives.

Unfortunately, too many parents don’t know what those alternatives are, perhaps because they were spanked as children as well. Thus, the cycle of abuse continues.

When a child is spanked, they are being conditioned to respond only to spanking. How is a teacher or other caregiver supposed to appropriately discipline these children if they only behave after being hit?

Growing up, I was spanked, slapped, shoved, punched, hit with a belt…all in the name of discipline. All it taught me was anger and hate.

Spanking simply doesn’t work. If it’s so successful, why do parents have to keep doing it throughout their childrens’ lives? Not only more frequently, but more forceful as well?

Pediatricians and child development experts almost unanimously agree that spanking is ineffective, unnecessary and abusive. Every parent here should take the time to read this article by Dr. Jim Sears: http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp

Spanking should be outlawed, and laws should be in place to protect children in the same way that adults are protected from assault and domestic abuse.

Our children deserve better.

Chrisr671 — I could not have said it better myself! I agree 100%. My brother and his family were over the other night. Their young daughter was acting up. My brother — who will not spank the child because of the mothers beliefs, asked the child “Do you want to go to time out?” The little 3 year old looked him right inthe eye — laughed outloud and said “YEP!” She would not have been so happy if she knew a spanking was on the way. Nevermind (above) doesn’t get the picture. Its not about “hitting.” Its about consequences. For certain actions, there are consequences. And sometimes they “hurt.” Both as a child and as an adult. Don’t pay your taxes, sit back and wait for the “spanking” the IRS is going to give you. Go run a red light, and see how many times you get away with it before the court systems gives you a good “spanking.” Its people like Nevermind who are allowing children to run totally out of control. My father use to paddle our a#@es when we got out of line. Never in an abusive way — just a stern spanking that let us know that our behavior was not acceptable. Now, I have children and grandkids raised the same way. No one in the family has been arrested, on drugs or in any trouble at all. We are all productive members of society, who are teaching our children the real life lesson that when you screw up — there are prices that must be paid… and sometimes it hurts!

The real answer to this problem is found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ

I’ve noticed that this site is decidedly moderate. There are a few extremely liberal and conservative alike … but all in all, not really a “liberal” site.

I, for one, am against the state telling people how to live their lives in any way. We live in a nation founded on the principle of limited government interference. Why have we forgotten that? How can we get it back?

Yeah…good point Jeremy! But good luck getting it back. Especially with that BS Patriot Act that was passed a few years ago! That Act alone has taken away so many of our freedoms it’s not even funny, yet people don’t say anything about it. It’s like no big deal! What has this country come to? These days if something doesn’t affect someone personally, nobody really gives a damn what happens or what kind of freedoms are stripped away from us!
We as a people should be raising hell about the Patriot Act, but nobody talks about it anymore. It’s just like…ok it happened…nothing we can do about it so lets continue to let the government screw us over and take our freedoms away one by one. This is supposed to be a “free” country…..hmmmm, not so much!

I sadly confess I have spanked my child before. I regret it and hope I never abuse my child like that again.

The last time I did it was when I caught my son starting a fire when he was 8. He learned to fear me rather than learn that what he did was wrong. And he started another fire despite the spanking. After that fire he spent two hours each day for the next two weeks writing sentences like “I will not start fires anymore.” To this day he still says that was the worst punishment I ever gave him and he hasn’t started a fire since.

Spanking is child abuse. You can’t hit your spouse so why is OK for you to hit your kid. And spare me the semantics BS about how spanking and hitting are two different things. In both cases you are using physical force to strike another person and inflict pain and fear on them. End of story.

Guest… I gotta throw the BS card on the “learned to fear me.” My father would kick my butt if I messed up too bad as a kid. And I grew up to be fine — never in trouble with the law, no addictions, education good job etc. etc. And I never feared him. Kids are sharper than you give them credit. They know when they need to FEAR someone — and when they need to RESPECT somone else. Big differance. You know what the morale to this story is? You raise your damn kids the way you want to — and I will raise mine. As long as we both stay within the confines of the law (Laws in “normal” places) and inflict no injury, you do your thing and I will do mine. The real point of the thread is to see how people feel about a law such as that decribed. The point being — where do we draw the line when it comes to our government telling us how to live?

I think there’s a fine line here that people are skating. I have five kids, and I have spanked them, but my wife and I’s guidlines for spanking are very clear cut. When parent’s consistent guidelines are discarded in the face of anger, that’s when problems happen, and discipline becomes abuse.

We never spank for anything except safety issues (e.g. running out into the street without looking) or direct disobedience (e.g. do not do A, then the child immediately does A). We spank only on the bum, only with a paddle (the hands are for loving our children), and only once for each incident (no multiple swats, ever).

When our children misbehave in other fashions, they receive other punishments. These vary according to what works for each child. For example, while timeout works great for a couple of my kids, one doesn’t mind them at all. So, for him, he does pushups or runs in place. Another one responds well to losing priviledges like losing his PS2 or TV.

I guess my point is this, it is possible to use corporal punishment as long as parents use good sense, consistency, and temper their discipline (in whatever form) with copious amounts of love.

Guest @ #3: Yeah, I’m the one who doesn’t get it. That’s why there are no studies or empirical data to back up my claims. Whereas you have provided more than enough evidence, albeit anecdotal, to prove me wrong. (Sarcasm intended)

You’re simply not comparing apples to apples. Spanking is not a natural consequence. That’s why you get a speeding ticket instead of a beating. That’s why the IRS makes you pay a fine instead of sending someone to your house to kick your teeth in.

The pain you’re referring to is non-physical pain.

Once the “pain” of losing the money over speeding tickets overcomes the pleasure you get out of doing it, you’ll stop speeding. (Pleasure/Pain principle: look it up)

Believe it or not, kids will get the message much more effectively (and be spared of the violence) if they were disciplined in the same manner. Time-outs, token economies, and natural consequences with real-world counterparts.

For example, jail is simply an adult time-out. Spanking does not have a real-world counterpart. (Please, I dare someone to bring up the death penalty in a discussion about spanking children.) You don’t get slapped at work for stealing paper clips. You get a warning, or at worst, fired. Again, natural consequences.

Jeremy Plothow: You are clearly misinformed, and your comment is surprising, coming from a person who encourages others to study their facts before speaking.

Government interference? Or responsible intervention on behalf of our country’s children?

FYI: The government also requires you to put sheets on your kids’ beds, restrain them in a child car seat while in a car until they’re a certain age or weight, give them immunizations before you can enroll them in public schools, etc. How many parents would do those things if they weren’t required by law? And is it socially responsible for our government not to intervene? (All these cost money, you know. So basically, the government is telling you how to spend your hard-earned dollars. That should get you fired up about limited government interference.)

Guest @ #11 is absolutely right. Children learn to fear the authority figure and the spanking, rather than learn what to do differently in the future.

It’s simple, really.

Discipline = teaching, the goal of which for the student is learning.

Learning is a change in the students’ behavior due to new information.

The goal of disciplining children is to teach them to be internally motivated to regulate their behavior…a required skill for productive adults in our society.

Spanking accomplishes none of these things. Not only is it not a natural consequence, it is 100% external motivation. Children who are spanked learn to behave only when there is a threat of being hit. This is why they act out more (and hit other kids) in school and daycare…because teachers and other care providers aren’t allowed to spank. They have to use their brains instead.

Many parents spank and offer instructions on why what they did is wrong and what to do in the future. It’s the teaching involved that is effective in these cases. Thus the spanking is irrelevant, unnecessary, and abusive.

Joe V. is right…spanking is a slippery slope to abuse. Just like anything else with a payoff. You have to hit harder and more frequently just to get the same response.

And if the government truly wants to be effective, they need to promote parent education in addition to the legislation. It’s that whole learning concept again. New information = change in behavior.

Man’s mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. –Oliver Wendell Holmes

Since when are the words pain and fear not plain English? They’re basic human emotions, and I assumed most people would be familiar with them. I meant no disrespect, sir.

With that said, let’s define empirical, shall we?

Empirical: Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

This definition typifies behavioral studies…with no other way to measure data other than by observation.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Anyway, here’s a start:
An excerpt by the director of the National Center for Study of Corporal Punishment and Alternatives and professor of school psychology at Temple University.

WHAT SPANKING DOES FOR KIDS
From Irwin A. Hyman, The Case Against Spanking: How to Discipline Your Child Without Hitting, (1997), pp. 58-62.

There is much debate about the actual effects of corporal punishment. The debates center on age at the time of hitting, the force with which children are hit, and the effects on long-term behavior and personality development. Rather than bore you with the numerous statistics, arguments about the validity of various studies, and the fine points of each debate, I will summarize what I believe are the major effects of corporal punishment on children. But first let me share with you the results of a recent and very important scientific conference on spanking.
In February 1996, I was fortunate to be part of a panel of experts convened by the American Academy of Pediatrics, with support from New York’s Montefiori Medical Center and the U.S. Maternal and Child Health Bureau, to develop a consensus statement about the short- and long-term consequences of corporal punishment. Sharing the panel with me were distinguished social scientists and physicians representing both sides of the spanking issue. Despite heated debate and some slippage into rhetoric reflecting personal biases, we were able to produce a final statement of compromise with which we could all live. The individual papers and the consensus statement are published in Pediatrics. Despite our care in crafting an objective statement of our findings, the results will most likely be distorted in the media.

In essence, the thirteen-point statement released by the group refers to spanking as defined as the use of an open hand on the extremities or buttocks that is physically noninjurious. I believe force which causes redness, soreness or bruising is injurious and would not be acceptable to most members of the group. While the group admitted that there was little pro or con scientific evidence on the spanking of two- to five-year-olds, there was agreement that surveys and studies of older children suggest that spanking is not advisable. Even the researchers in favor of spanking admitted that noncorporal punishment methods of discipline have been shown to be effective with children of all ages, and that prevention of misbehavior should be stressed, that excessive spanking is one of many risk factors for poor outcomes in the lives of children, and that parents should never spank in anger. This may be an oxymoron, since studies of spankers and spankees indicate that some level of anger is almost always associated with spankings. Finally, the group rejected spanking and paddling in schools.

While the prospankers interpret the lack of research on the harmful effects of spanking with preschoolers as proof that it is OK, I disagree and maintain that there is no reason to ever hit a child. My summary of the research and the clinical experience of over 30 years follows:

Corporal punishment should not be used in schools, since there is convincing evidence that it is a significant contributing factor to emotional, legal and social problems.

Frequent and harsh spanking is consistently found to be present in the lives of boys who are aggressive and disobedient, who lie, cheat, are destructive with their own and others’ belongings, and who associate with friends prone to delinquency.

Frequent and harsh spankings can cause young children to bottle up their feelings of fear, anger, and hostility. In later life these children are unusually prone to suicidal thoughts, suicide, and depression.

Despite the age or gender of the child, the family’s social class or ethnicity, whether the child was hit frequently or rarely, severely or mildly, whether there were high or low levels of interaction and affection in the home, and regardless of the degree to which specific situational variables may have mitigated the effects of the punishment, spanking consistently contributes to lowered self-esteem.

In toddlers, many punitive approaches, including spanking, do not result in compliance, but end simply with the administration of punishment. (Studies show that preschoolers who are hit are more likely to be more impulsive and aggressive than those who are not spanked. Furthermore, toddlers can be taught, using behavioral techniques such as associating their word for pain with the street or electrical outlets, to avoid those dangerous situations. Childproofing the house and monitoring toddlers will avoid the so-called necessity of spanking to teach children to avoid danger.)

Children who are physically punished are more likely to grow up approving of it and using it to settle interpersonal conflicts. Even children who have experienced “normal” spankings are almost three times as likely to seriously assault a sibling, compared to children who were not physically disciplined.

Contrary to popular belief, studies of corporal punishment in schools indicate that it is not used as a last resort. In fact, it is too often the first punishment for nonviolent and minor misbehaviors. Beatings for minor misbehaviors can cause many stress symptoms in children.

Younger children are hit most often; spanking slowly decreases until late adolescence. This contributes to feelings of helplessness, and resentment that may lead to withdrawal or aggression toward caregivers.

Boys are hit much more frequently than girls, thereby sustaining sexual stereotypes.

In schools, minority and poor white children receive “lickings” four to five times more frequently than middle- and upper-class white children. This contributes to racism and classism in our society.

Regional comparisons show that the highest proportion of corporal punishment in America occurs in states of the South and Southwest. Florida, Arkansas and Alabama have consistently been among the leaders in the frequency of hitting schoolchildren. It is unreasonable and unfair that children’s location should determine the degree to which they may be legally victimized.

Corporally punished schoolchildren, especially those with emotional and academic disabilities, have suffered all types of injuries including welts, hematomas, damage to almost all external and many internal body parts, and death.

Studies demonstrate that eliminating corporal punishment does not increase misbehavior in home or school. Systematic use of positive alternatives, however, has been shown to decrease misbehavior significantly.

What Should We Do?
If we really want to eliminate puniutiveness in our society (especially child abuse), we need to convince parents and teachers to use other techniques to shape and change children’s behavior. While some would say that children are inherently bad, and that adults have a natural urge to hit children, it is just not true. Attitudes of punishment toward children are developed in our own childhoods. These attitudes are shaped by our parents’ practices, by our religious beliefs, by national identity, and even by the region in which we live. Despite the powerful effects of modeling, there is convincing research evidence that teachers and parents can break old habits.

If we relied in other areas of life on the kinds of nonsensical assumptions used to support corporal punishment, we would still be using leeches to cure diseases and burning witches at the stake. Furthermore, common sense would tell us that a common green mold (penicillin) could have absolutely no relation to promoting health.

I have had two interesting experiences that reflect on this problem. The first occurred on a radio talk show in Detroit. After giving my usual pitch about why hitting children is a bad idea, one of the callers disputed my statements. She claimed to be a teacher, to have a doctoral degree, and also to teach education courses college. After listening to her argument, I said to her, “How can you teach college students and yet ignore all of the research that is against the use of corporal punishment? Can you point to one research study that says it is beneficial for teachers to hit children?”

Her reply, considering her education and position, was quite surprising. “Research is one thing, and teaching is another. I just believe that some kids need to be hit.”

The other experience was quite positive. I was conducting a two-day workshop on discipline and the effects of psychological and physical abuse by teachers. The workshop, in Panama City, Florida, was a region noted for its rate of paddling. During the first day of the workshop, which was attended by by over 150 educators, I presented all of the research against the use of verbal and physical assaults, and I also answered practical questions and talked about alternatives. The next day, one of the participants, a guidance counselor, reported the following to the audience, “Last night, I sat in bed talking to my five-year-old daughter. I told her that I had been at a workshop during the day and I learned that you don’t have to hit little children to make them behave and that I would not spank her any more. My daughter replied, ‘I’m really glad, Mommy–now I don’t have to spank my children when I grow up.’”

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Go ahead and retort, but I believe you’ll need more than T-Rex lyrics to convince me or anyone else.

And I reserve the right not to retort.

The question at the end of the original essay was:
“How do YOU discipline your child when they get out of line?”

So I want to answer the question with a question: When, where, and/or how is a child out of line?

And where is Dr. Spock when you need him…?

And to answer that original question, I think we’ve figured out that 95% of how we discipline our kids is in redirecting their attention away from undesirable behaviors.

Redirection can be in the form of tickling, acting silly in response to them, launching into a sudden game, etc.

Sometimes that will still not work, and we have found time outs for the amount of minutes = child’s age in years, conducted in accordance with that nanny’s advice works well.

Those are things like stooping down to their eye level when telling them why they’re in time out instead of yelling down to them, asking them to apologize afterwards, what to do if they try coming out on their own, etc.

Other times, the punishment just fits the crime.

For example, I replaced our old nasty doors with nicer new 6-panel doors. My six-year old boy kept slamming and kicking his door. I popped his door off the hinges after one of those fits and took it to the basement. The next morning I found a note from him apologizing and asking for his door back. Haven’t had that problem since.

My son lives in Pocotello ID and I live in Idaho falls. My son came down for a visit and told me his mothers boy freind spanks him all the time. So me being the loving and caring father I am I called the pocatello police dept and reported that the Mothers boy freind is hitting my son. The police said ” Its not illegal for someone to spank a child for punishment” My response was ” So if his mother gets out of line then its okay for the guy to spank her then correct?” the officer responded with ” NO!!! he would be charged with domestic battery and arrested” So I then responded with” Then its okay if I go down there and beat the guys brain out the back of his skull with a bat for hitting my child then because he is out of line?? the officer replied ” NO!! you would be arrested for hitting the mothers boyfreind” My response then was ” so its okay for them to hit my 6 year old son and they wont be arrested correct?” the officer then said ” We refuse to answer that hot topic for now for legal resons talk to your family Lawyer for more information and terminated our call” I am not agianst spanking of children. But I am against someone who isnt a parent of the child touching my child in any way what so ever. So I will come back and talk to you all later after I get out of jail for teaching the guy a lession. Because the law only works 1 way and its always for the person who is the criminal. I called child protective services too and also had my meother call the police. We had the home searched for drugs and had them both fined for keeping a dirty place. And had someone warn them not to touch my kid again. but he wont stop hitting my son and leaving him alone with his 1 year old brother with out a phone. I am sick of it I have to do something. I wont go down there until next Friday. If anyone has any ideas on how to stop the guy from abusing my son let me know anything is worth a shot. I would love to see the coward try hitting me I would be very brutal to him back.

Jeremy, I suppose we must agree to disagree on the subject, but I will offer a closing argument of my own.

I applaud you for reading the entire entry I posted. However, the second paragraph clearly defines spanking as physically non-injurious. Frequent and harsh spankings are considered unacceptable by any means, and are used in the article to illustrate the gamut of physical discipline.

The author also suggests that mild, rare, and “normal” spanking is equally as damaging. I imagine you failed to mention or respond to these simply because they don’t support your views.

It’s true that correlation does not equal causation, and the statement certainly has its place. Not only in social sciences, but in medical sciences as well. One could similarly argue that smoking does not cause lung cancer. There is an overwhelming correlation, but because a number of non-smokers develop lung cancer, possibly due to a variety of environmental factors, causation can not be unequivocally proven. Yet it is widely accepted (and endorsed by the U.S. Surgeon Genereal) that smoking causes lung cancer.

I believe causation in this case can be asserted as such.

If you can in good conscience:
1) Ignore the overwhelming correlation between spanking children and the negative emotional and social ramifications,

2) justify that spanking is smart discipline, done out of love, and

3) expect that your future child or children will respect and love you in return because of, or rather, in spite of it,

well, then it’s certainly within your rights to do so.

But to be honest, my impression was that you were too intelligent for that.

Chris671’s advice doesn’t sound as exciting or forceful as angryparent’s idea, but it will be more successful.

Plus, doing it that way will give you better leverage later on in legal proceedings, showing you went the extra lengths to resolve the problems.

i say go kick the tar out of the boyfriend and make sure he can’t hit your kid anymore. once he is a step-parent you may have to back off a little but just a boyfriend i say he needs a good whipping himself

Well thanks for the advice. I kept calling the Poci Police they finaly looked into it and warned him not to touch him again. I also sent CPS in there too. I gave my son a disconnect Cell phone that can still dial 911. And told him if he is left alone to call 911 ASAP. And I did drive there and told the boy freind I would kick the holy be jesus out of him if my Son told me he touched him again. The boy freind moved out. So I think its going to be okay.

Way to go troutmeister. And people say “spanking doesn’t work”. HA! The proof is in the fish!
When necessary, spanking is a great tool of discipline and I think if more people used it, they wouldn’t see their kids laying in the middle of aisle 9 kicking & screaming because they’re not getting their way. I too was spanked when I was younger and it worked on me. And I grew up to be a law abiding, well educated member of society. And I don’t hate or dispise my parents for the way they raised me. My parents and I have a great relationship and I’ve actually thanked them over the years for raising me the way they did. I see some of the people I grew up with that have no respect for anything or anyone, and I know it was because that person was never really disciplined as a child.

I also think corporal punishment SHOULD be brought back into the school. I’m willing to bet anything you’d see a huge drop in the way kids disrespected their teachers. I’m like most of you, I DO think discipline needs to remain at home with the parents, but too many parents don’t bother to discipline their children so it sometimes has to be left up to the school. This is why the public schools system is such a mess in this country. Kids these days know that nothing is going to happen to them if they act up. The only consequence to their bad actions is to be expelled, and the “bad apples” don’t mind that anyways. 10 days off of school….wooohoo! They know they can get away with a lot more these days because their teacher can’t touch them.

So we got our tax returns yesterday and decided to splurge on an elegant dinner out to the local Arctic Circle.

The kids were playing on their awesome playland set, and our two-year old girl kept coming back to us crying. My wife said she thought a little boy kept hitting her. That boy’s mom wasn’t really doing much to stop him besides pulling him over and letting him hit and slap her for awhile before letting go again.

As we got up to leave, that little boy ran by and smacked my little girl across the head really hard. I yelled “Hey!” at him and everyone was staring at the mom (or maybe grandma). She just did the same thing.

I was so angry I wanted to bend that kid over the knee and spank him myself a few times if that other guardian wouldn’t do something, then make the boy apologize to all the kids he had been hitting.

Of course I probably would have been arrested in the irony of life. And reading the above comment, I would not want any teachers hitting my kids, so I’m glad I suppressed my angry urge to discipline that boy last night.

But it reminds me of an onion article: “Is Anyone On This Bus Interested In Disciplining My Son?”

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/49603

I say give em a good wooping and teach them kids to mind. Empty our jails in the future. Wip wip wip them kids back into shape.