Discipline Debate: Should spanking be outlawed?

Spanking doesn’t encourage respect for others or for rules…it only encourages fear and creates a cycle of abuse.

It teaches children that hitting is an appropriate way to deal with a situation. And it’s not.

You can’t hit your spouse, your boss, your co-workers, your friends, a slow waiter or waitress…just because you don’t get your way. You have to find other ways to deal with them. And parents have a responsibility to teach their children those alternatives.

Unfortunately, too many parents don’t know what those alternatives are, perhaps because they were spanked as children as well. Thus, the cycle of abuse continues.

When a child is spanked, they are being conditioned to respond only to spanking. How is a teacher or other caregiver supposed to appropriately discipline these children if they only behave after being hit?

Growing up, I was spanked, slapped, shoved, punched, hit with a belt…all in the name of discipline. All it taught me was anger and hate.

Spanking simply doesn’t work. If it’s so successful, why do parents have to keep doing it throughout their childrens’ lives? Not only more frequently, but more forceful as well?

Pediatricians and child development experts almost unanimously agree that spanking is ineffective, unnecessary and abusive. Every parent here should take the time to read this article by Dr. Jim Sears: http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp

Spanking should be outlawed, and laws should be in place to protect children in the same way that adults are protected from assault and domestic abuse.

Our children deserve better.

Chrisr671 — I could not have said it better myself! I agree 100%. My brother and his family were over the other night. Their young daughter was acting up. My brother — who will not spank the child because of the mothers beliefs, asked the child “Do you want to go to time out?” The little 3 year old looked him right inthe eye — laughed outloud and said “YEP!” She would not have been so happy if she knew a spanking was on the way. Nevermind (above) doesn’t get the picture. Its not about “hitting.” Its about consequences. For certain actions, there are consequences. And sometimes they “hurt.” Both as a child and as an adult. Don’t pay your taxes, sit back and wait for the “spanking” the IRS is going to give you. Go run a red light, and see how many times you get away with it before the court systems gives you a good “spanking.” Its people like Nevermind who are allowing children to run totally out of control. My father use to paddle our a#@es when we got out of line. Never in an abusive way — just a stern spanking that let us know that our behavior was not acceptable. Now, I have children and grandkids raised the same way. No one in the family has been arrested, on drugs or in any trouble at all. We are all productive members of society, who are teaching our children the real life lesson that when you screw up — there are prices that must be paid… and sometimes it hurts!

The real answer to this problem is found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nojWJ6-XmeQ

Yeah…good point Jeremy! But good luck getting it back. Especially with that BS Patriot Act that was passed a few years ago! That Act alone has taken away so many of our freedoms it’s not even funny, yet people don’t say anything about it. It’s like no big deal! What has this country come to? These days if something doesn’t affect someone personally, nobody really gives a damn what happens or what kind of freedoms are stripped away from us!
We as a people should be raising hell about the Patriot Act, but nobody talks about it anymore. It’s just like…ok it happened…nothing we can do about it so lets continue to let the government screw us over and take our freedoms away one by one. This is supposed to be a “free” country…..hmmmm, not so much!

I sadly confess I have spanked my child before. I regret it and hope I never abuse my child like that again.

The last time I did it was when I caught my son starting a fire when he was 8. He learned to fear me rather than learn that what he did was wrong. And he started another fire despite the spanking. After that fire he spent two hours each day for the next two weeks writing sentences like “I will not start fires anymore.” To this day he still says that was the worst punishment I ever gave him and he hasn’t started a fire since.

Spanking is child abuse. You can’t hit your spouse so why is OK for you to hit your kid. And spare me the semantics BS about how spanking and hitting are two different things. In both cases you are using physical force to strike another person and inflict pain and fear on them. End of story.

Guest… I gotta throw the BS card on the “learned to fear me.” My father would kick my butt if I messed up too bad as a kid. And I grew up to be fine — never in trouble with the law, no addictions, education good job etc. etc. And I never feared him. Kids are sharper than you give them credit. They know when they need to FEAR someone — and when they need to RESPECT somone else. Big differance. You know what the morale to this story is? You raise your damn kids the way you want to — and I will raise mine. As long as we both stay within the confines of the law (Laws in “normal” places) and inflict no injury, you do your thing and I will do mine. The real point of the thread is to see how people feel about a law such as that decribed. The point being — where do we draw the line when it comes to our government telling us how to live?

Guest @ #3: Yeah, I’m the one who doesn’t get it. That’s why there are no studies or empirical data to back up my claims. Whereas you have provided more than enough evidence, albeit anecdotal, to prove me wrong. (Sarcasm intended)

You’re simply not comparing apples to apples. Spanking is not a natural consequence. That’s why you get a speeding ticket instead of a beating. That’s why the IRS makes you pay a fine instead of sending someone to your house to kick your teeth in.

The pain you’re referring to is non-physical pain.

Once the “pain” of losing the money over speeding tickets overcomes the pleasure you get out of doing it, you’ll stop speeding. (Pleasure/Pain principle: look it up)

Believe it or not, kids will get the message much more effectively (and be spared of the violence) if they were disciplined in the same manner. Time-outs, token economies, and natural consequences with real-world counterparts.

For example, jail is simply an adult time-out. Spanking does not have a real-world counterpart. (Please, I dare someone to bring up the death penalty in a discussion about spanking children.) You don’t get slapped at work for stealing paper clips. You get a warning, or at worst, fired. Again, natural consequences.

Jeremy Plothow: You are clearly misinformed, and your comment is surprising, coming from a person who encourages others to study their facts before speaking.

Government interference? Or responsible intervention on behalf of our country’s children?

FYI: The government also requires you to put sheets on your kids’ beds, restrain them in a child car seat while in a car until they’re a certain age or weight, give them immunizations before you can enroll them in public schools, etc. How many parents would do those things if they weren’t required by law? And is it socially responsible for our government not to intervene? (All these cost money, you know. So basically, the government is telling you how to spend your hard-earned dollars. That should get you fired up about limited government interference.)

Guest @ #11 is absolutely right. Children learn to fear the authority figure and the spanking, rather than learn what to do differently in the future.

It’s simple, really.

Discipline = teaching, the goal of which for the student is learning.

Learning is a change in the students’ behavior due to new information.

The goal of disciplining children is to teach them to be internally motivated to regulate their behavior…a required skill for productive adults in our society.

Spanking accomplishes none of these things. Not only is it not a natural consequence, it is 100% external motivation. Children who are spanked learn to behave only when there is a threat of being hit. This is why they act out more (and hit other kids) in school and daycare…because teachers and other care providers aren’t allowed to spank. They have to use their brains instead.

Many parents spank and offer instructions on why what they did is wrong and what to do in the future. It’s the teaching involved that is effective in these cases. Thus the spanking is irrelevant, unnecessary, and abusive.

Joe V. is right…spanking is a slippery slope to abuse. Just like anything else with a payoff. You have to hit harder and more frequently just to get the same response.

And if the government truly wants to be effective, they need to promote parent education in addition to the legislation. It’s that whole learning concept again. New information = change in behavior.

Man’s mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions. –Oliver Wendell Holmes

Since when are the words pain and fear not plain English? They’re basic human emotions, and I assumed most people would be familiar with them. I meant no disrespect, sir.

With that said, let’s define empirical, shall we?

Empirical: Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

This definition typifies behavioral studies…with no other way to measure data other than by observation.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Anyway, here’s a start:
An excerpt by the director of the National Center for Study of Corporal Punishment and Alternatives and professor of school psychology at Temple University.

WHAT SPANKING DOES FOR KIDS
From Irwin A. Hyman, The Case Against Spanking: How to Discipline Your Child Without Hitting, (1997), pp. 58-62.

There is much debate about the actual effects of corporal punishment. The debates center on age at the time of hitting, the force with which children are hit, and the effects on long-term behavior and personality development. Rather than bore you with the numerous statistics, arguments about the validity of various studies, and the fine points of each debate, I will summarize what I believe are the major effects of corporal punishment on children. But first let me share with you the results of a recent and very important scientific conference on spanking.
In February 1996, I was fortunate to be part of a panel of experts convened by the American Academy of Pediatrics, with support from New York’s Montefiori Medical Center and the U.S. Maternal and Child Health Bureau, to develop a consensus statement about the short- and long-term consequences of corporal punishment. Sharing the panel with me were distinguished social scientists and physicians representing both sides of the spanking issue. Despite heated debate and some slippage into rhetoric reflecting personal biases, we were able to produce a final statement of compromise with which we could all live. The individual papers and the consensus statement are published in Pediatrics. Despite our care in crafting an objective statement of our findings, the results will most likely be distorted in the media.

In essence, the thirteen-point statement released by the group refers to spanking as defined as the use of an open hand on the extremities or buttocks that is physically noninjurious. I believe force which causes redness, soreness or bruising is injurious and would not be acceptable to most members of the group. While the group admitted that there was little pro or con scientific evidence on the spanking of two- to five-year-olds, there was agreement that surveys and studies of older children suggest that spanking is not advisable. Even the researchers in favor of spanking admitted that noncorporal punishment methods of discipline have been shown to be effective with children of all ages, and that prevention of misbehavior should be stressed, that excessive spanking is one of many risk factors for poor outcomes in the lives of children, and that parents should never spank in anger. This may be an oxymoron, since studies of spankers and spankees indicate that some level of anger is almost always associated with spankings. Finally, the group rejected spanking and paddling in schools.

While the prospankers interpret the lack of research on the harmful effects of spanking with preschoolers as proof that it is OK, I disagree and maintain that there is no reason to ever hit a child. My summary of the research and the clinical experience of over 30 years follows:

Corporal punishment should not be used in schools, since there is convincing evidence that it is a significant contributing factor to emotional, legal and social problems.

Frequent and harsh spanking is consistently found to be present in the lives of boys who are aggressive and disobedient, who lie, cheat, are destructive with their own and others’ belongings, and who associate with friends prone to delinquency.

Frequent and harsh spankings can cause young children to bottle up their feelings of fear, anger, and hostility. In later life these children are unusually prone to suicidal thoughts, suicide, and depression.

Despite the age or gender of the child, the family’s social class or ethnicity, whether the child was hit frequently or rarely, severely or mildly, whether there were high or low levels of interaction and affection in the home, and regardless of the degree to which specific situational variables may have mitigated the effects of the punishment, spanking consistently contributes to lowered self-esteem.

In toddlers, many punitive approaches, including spanking, do not result in compliance, but end simply with the administration of punishment. (Studies show that preschoolers who are hit are more likely to be more impulsive and aggressive than those who are not spanked. Furthermore, toddlers can be taught, using behavioral techniques such as associating their word for pain with the street or electrical outlets, to avoid those dangerous situations. Childproofing the house and monitoring toddlers will avoid the so-called necessity of spanking to teach children to avoid danger.)

Children who are physically punished are more likely to grow up approving of it and using it to settle interpersonal conflicts. Even children who have experienced “normal” spankings are almost three times as likely to seriously assault a sibling, compared to children who were not physically disciplined.

Contrary to popular belief, studies of corporal punishment in schools indicate that it is not used as a last resort. In fact, it is too often the first punishment for nonviolent and minor misbehaviors. Beatings for minor misbehaviors can cause many stress symptoms in children.

Younger children are hit most often; spanking slowly decreases until late adolescence. This contributes to feelings of helplessness, and resentment that may lead to withdrawal or aggression toward caregivers.

Boys are hit much more frequently than girls, thereby sustaining sexual stereotypes.

In schools, minority and poor white children receive “lickings” four to five times more frequently than middle- and upper-class white children. This contributes to racism and classism in our society.

Regional comparisons show that the highest proportion of corporal punishment in America occurs in states of the South and Southwest. Florida, Arkansas and Alabama have consistently been among the leaders in the frequency of hitting schoolchildren. It is unreasonable and unfair that children’s location should determine the degree to which they may be legally victimized.

Corporally punished schoolchildren, especially those with emotional and academic disabilities, have suffered all types of injuries including welts, hematomas, damage to almost all external and many internal body parts, and death.

Studies demonstrate that eliminating corporal punishment does not increase misbehavior in home or school. Systematic use of positive alternatives, however, has been shown to decrease misbehavior significantly.

What Should We Do?
If we really want to eliminate puniutiveness in our society (especially child abuse), we need to convince parents and teachers to use other techniques to shape and change children’s behavior. While some would say that children are inherently bad, and that adults have a natural urge to hit children, it is just not true. Attitudes of punishment toward children are developed in our own childhoods. These attitudes are shaped by our parents’ practices, by our religious beliefs, by national identity, and even by the region in which we live. Despite the powerful effects of modeling, there is convincing research evidence that teachers and parents can break old habits.

If we relied in other areas of life on the kinds of nonsensical assumptions used to support corporal punishment, we would still be using leeches to cure diseases and burning witches at the stake. Furthermore, common sense would tell us that a common green mold (penicillin) could have absolutely no relation to promoting health.

I have had two interesting experiences that reflect on this problem. The first occurred on a radio talk show in Detroit. After giving my usual pitch about why hitting children is a bad idea, one of the callers disputed my statements. She claimed to be a teacher, to have a doctoral degree, and also to teach education courses college. After listening to her argument, I said to her, “How can you teach college students and yet ignore all of the research that is against the use of corporal punishment? Can you point to one research study that says it is beneficial for teachers to hit children?”

Her reply, considering her education and position, was quite surprising. “Research is one thing, and teaching is another. I just believe that some kids need to be hit.”

The other experience was quite positive. I was conducting a two-day workshop on discipline and the effects of psychological and physical abuse by teachers. The workshop, in Panama City, Florida, was a region noted for its rate of paddling. During the first day of the workshop, which was attended by by over 150 educators, I presented all of the research against the use of verbal and physical assaults, and I also answered practical questions and talked about alternatives. The next day, one of the participants, a guidance counselor, reported the following to the audience, “Last night, I sat in bed talking to my five-year-old daughter. I told her that I had been at a workshop during the day and I learned that you don’t have to hit little children to make them behave and that I would not spank her any more. My daughter replied, ‘I’m really glad, Mommy–now I don’t have to spank my children when I grow up.’”

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Go ahead and retort, but I believe you’ll need more than T-Rex lyrics to convince me or anyone else.

And I reserve the right not to retort.

The question at the end of the original essay was:
“How do YOU discipline your child when they get out of line?”

So I want to answer the question with a question: When, where, and/or how is a child out of line?

And where is Dr. Spock when you need him…?

And to answer that original question, I think we’ve figured out that 95% of how we discipline our kids is in redirecting their attention away from undesirable behaviors.

Redirection can be in the form of tickling, acting silly in response to them, launching into a sudden game, etc.

Sometimes that will still not work, and we have found time outs for the amount of minutes = child’s age in years, conducted in accordance with that nanny’s advice works well.

Those are things like stooping down to their eye level when telling them why they’re in time out instead of yelling down to them, asking them to apologize afterwards, what to do if they try coming out on their own, etc.

Other times, the punishment just fits the crime.

For example, I replaced our old nasty doors with nicer new 6-panel doors. My six-year old boy kept slamming and kicking his door. I popped his door off the hinges after one of those fits and took it to the basement. The next morning I found a note from him apologizing and asking for his door back. Haven’t had that problem since.

My son lives in Pocotello ID and I live in Idaho falls. My son came down for a visit and told me his mothers boy freind spanks him all the time. So me being the loving and caring father I am I called the pocatello police dept and reported that the Mothers boy freind is hitting my son. The police said ” Its not illegal for someone to spank a child for punishment” My response was ” So if his mother gets out of line then its okay for the guy to spank her then correct?” the officer responded with ” NO!!! he would be charged with domestic battery and arrested” So I then responded with” Then its okay if I go down there and beat the guys brain out the back of his skull with a bat for hitting my child then because he is out of line?? the officer replied ” NO!! you would be arrested for hitting the mothers boyfreind” My response then was ” so its okay for them to hit my 6 year old son and they wont be arrested correct?” the officer then said ” We refuse to answer that hot topic for now for legal resons talk to your family Lawyer for more information and terminated our call” I am not agianst spanking of children. But I am against someone who isnt a parent of the child touching my child in any way what so ever. So I will come back and talk to you all later after I get out of jail for teaching the guy a lession. Because the law only works 1 way and its always for the person who is the criminal. I called child protective services too and also had my meother call the police. We had the home searched for drugs and had them both fined for keeping a dirty place. And had someone warn them not to touch my kid again. but he wont stop hitting my son and leaving him alone with his 1 year old brother with out a phone. I am sick of it I have to do something. I wont go down there until next Friday. If anyone has any ideas on how to stop the guy from abusing my son let me know anything is worth a shot. I would love to see the coward try hitting me I would be very brutal to him back.

Jeremy, I suppose we must agree to disagree on the subject, but I will offer a closing argument of my own.

I applaud you for reading the entire entry I posted. However, the second paragraph clearly defines spanking as physically non-injurious. Frequent and harsh spankings are considered unacceptable by any means, and are used in the article to illustrate the gamut of physical discipline.

The author also suggests that mild, rare, and “normal” spanking is equally as damaging. I imagine you failed to mention or respond to these simply because they don’t support your views.

It’s true that correlation does not equal causation, and the statement certainly has its place. Not only in social sciences, but in medical sciences as well. One could similarly argue that smoking does not cause lung cancer. There is an overwhelming correlation, but because a number of non-smokers develop lung cancer, possibly due to a variety of environmental factors, causation can not be unequivocally proven. Yet it is widely accepted (and endorsed by the U.S. Surgeon Genereal) that smoking causes lung cancer.

I believe causation in this case can be asserted as such.

If you can in good conscience:
1) Ignore the overwhelming correlation between spanking children and the negative emotional and social ramifications,

2) justify that spanking is smart discipline, done out of love, and

3) expect that your future child or children will respect and love you in return because of, or rather, in spite of it,

well, then it’s certainly within your rights to do so.

But to be honest, my impression was that you were too intelligent for that.

Chris671’s advice doesn’t sound as exciting or forceful as angryparent’s idea, but it will be more successful.

Plus, doing it that way will give you better leverage later on in legal proceedings, showing you went the extra lengths to resolve the problems.

i say go kick the tar out of the boyfriend and make sure he can’t hit your kid anymore. once he is a step-parent you may have to back off a little but just a boyfriend i say he needs a good whipping himself

Well thanks for the advice. I kept calling the Poci Police they finaly looked into it and warned him not to touch him again. I also sent CPS in there too. I gave my son a disconnect Cell phone that can still dial 911. And told him if he is left alone to call 911 ASAP. And I did drive there and told the boy freind I would kick the holy be jesus out of him if my Son told me he touched him again. The boy freind moved out. So I think its going to be okay.

Way to go troutmeister. And people say “spanking doesn’t work”. HA! The proof is in the fish!
When necessary, spanking is a great tool of discipline and I think if more people used it, they wouldn’t see their kids laying in the middle of aisle 9 kicking & screaming because they’re not getting their way. I too was spanked when I was younger and it worked on me. And I grew up to be a law abiding, well educated member of society. And I don’t hate or dispise my parents for the way they raised me. My parents and I have a great relationship and I’ve actually thanked them over the years for raising me the way they did. I see some of the people I grew up with that have no respect for anything or anyone, and I know it was because that person was never really disciplined as a child.

I also think corporal punishment SHOULD be brought back into the school. I’m willing to bet anything you’d see a huge drop in the way kids disrespected their teachers. I’m like most of you, I DO think discipline needs to remain at home with the parents, but too many parents don’t bother to discipline their children so it sometimes has to be left up to the school. This is why the public schools system is such a mess in this country. Kids these days know that nothing is going to happen to them if they act up. The only consequence to their bad actions is to be expelled, and the “bad apples” don’t mind that anyways. 10 days off of school….wooohoo! They know they can get away with a lot more these days because their teacher can’t touch them.

So we got our tax returns yesterday and decided to splurge on an elegant dinner out to the local Arctic Circle.

The kids were playing on their awesome playland set, and our two-year old girl kept coming back to us crying. My wife said she thought a little boy kept hitting her. That boy’s mom wasn’t really doing much to stop him besides pulling him over and letting him hit and slap her for awhile before letting go again.

As we got up to leave, that little boy ran by and smacked my little girl across the head really hard. I yelled “Hey!” at him and everyone was staring at the mom (or maybe grandma). She just did the same thing.

I was so angry I wanted to bend that kid over the knee and spank him myself a few times if that other guardian wouldn’t do something, then make the boy apologize to all the kids he had been hitting.

Of course I probably would have been arrested in the irony of life. And reading the above comment, I would not want any teachers hitting my kids, so I’m glad I suppressed my angry urge to discipline that boy last night.

But it reminds me of an onion article: “Is Anyone On This Bus Interested In Disciplining My Son?”

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/49603

I say give em a good wooping and teach them kids to mind. Empty our jails in the future. Wip wip wip them kids back into shape.

LOL @ give them a good woopin))))
I sure got it good as a kid and I have never broken the law and im 33 now lol

If someone treated their spouse or significant other a certain way, could they be arrested for domestic battery? If so, they have NO BUSINESS treating a defenseless child that way! Calling it discipline does NOT make it right! In fact, battering a child is worse than battering a spouse, because a child is less able to self-defend. Battering a child for any reason (including so-called discipline) should be a felony. And to those who think corporal punishment will empty our jails…our jails are packed to the rafters with people who got a good whuppin’ “when they deserved it.”

Very good point Slim….

We have too many child experts and others telling us how to parent our kids…or even put us on the defense against disciplining our kids when they get out of line.

I for one would rather discipline my children, without BATTERING them, before they have to be disciplined (and possibly over-disciplined) by an uncaring government/court system that just goes through the motions and doesn’t really effect anything in a meaningful way.

As for Rob’s earlier comment about our jails being packed with people who got a good whoopin when they deserved it…well, this is exactly the opposite…many of the people in jail received NO ATTENTION from parents or received the kind of attention that can best be associated with molly coddling or letting the kids get away with anything-at some point when this behavior goes outside the family, the child and the parents are in for a grim reality-it’s not tolerated

Parents who care about their children discipline them when they step out of line…and it’s not all involving corporal punishment either but when it is needed then it should be legal and the government should stay out of the matter unless it’s bona fide abuse.

Interesting thread. And such passion! Wow! So here’s my two cents. I never spanked my kids, BUT they knew I would if I ever needed to. I think that made a lot of difference in our relationship. No, they never “feared” me, but they did fear the punishment they would receive if they went too far. As Mike said in #42, it isn’t, in my opinion, wise to raise a child to believe that there is no “pain” involved in bad behavior. The solution offered in #36 that we simply distract them into a different train of thought doesn’t sit well with me. Bad behavior = consequences. Those consequences need to equal the crime. I would say that when they were very young, my children did have a “fear” of me in the respect that they knew bad behavior would equal punishment. As they grew older and could be talked to about the reasons why they couldn’t do certain things, their “fear” grew into a healthy respect for the rules. I think children who have no fear of punishment grow quickly into little monsters and then very big monsters.
I have quite a few children and what I had to do to punish each one was different as they were different. So what’s next? Is the government going to tell me what I can do to punish my children? So now we can’t spank them. Are we going to be told we can’t speak harshly or wag our fingers at them? I’d be willing to bet I can find a dozen psychologists who would state that it is not good for a child to be standing with his nose in the corner. Is that next? No time outs? You know it’s pretty hard on their self-esteem to have to go to bed early or not be able to play nintendo. I guess we better criminalize that punishment too. And heaven forbid we take away their cell phones and internet access. So what’s left?

Children need discipline! You must start early to correct their defiant behavior. If they don´t want to listen to their parents words (mostly between age 2 and age 4) they must be spanked. Only a good, hard spanking preferably on the bare butt will break the stubborness and the temper tantrums occuring between age 2 and age 4. At the age of 6 I was perfectly disciplined and ready to submit teachers and other adults authority. I think, I´m a decent, humble and responsible person because of the spankings mom and dad administered to me. But there must be restrictions. No other parts of the body than the butt should be spanked. The kid´s butt is well padded and even severe and repeted spankings ( in the case of willfull disobedience or rebellion )won´t harm the child. Any other forms of corporal punishment should be prosecuted as child abuse. A spanking, even a good, hard spanking is justified by tradition and the Bible. Hundreds of generations of parents applied successfully the spanking as a child rearing method to correct childrens bad behavior. Child rearing, spanking included, is a private matter and the State should´nt encroach on parents rights.

I think people should mind their own buisness when it comes to a parent and child punishment. Nothing wrong with letting a kid know they will get a good woopin if they disobey the parent. The government goes to far when sticking their nose in it. And so do the general public. The problem with todays society is they want to make everyone do everything the way they would do it. Wow I spanked both my kids less than an hour ago. For sneaking outside at 6am and swimming in the pool. We have told them countless times to ask and have one of us supervise them. the children ignored that rule and a spanking was called for. Or do you folks think I should let them learn by making mistakes and let drowing to death teach them a lesson? I think the spanking was less harsh than letting them die.

I’d have to disagree with you Wester. You mustve been beaten, not spanked. I was spanked when I was that age and I totally respect my parents.
Parents need to stop trying to be their kids “friends” and start being their “parents”. Your children will not grow up to respect authority if you continue to coddle them. You’re telling us you’ve never spanked them. Well I can gaurentee you’re yelling at them or using some other form of discipline. Children will be children, and sometimes a “timeout” just won’t cut it.
Get off your high horse already it’s not about violence or making your kids fearful of you. Its about teaching them respect and right from wrong. There’s nothing wrong with a good spanking if the situation calls for it.

Joe, very well-written post……except for the cat, of course ha ha…
Slim, I see your point of view, but I was not beaten……nor do I scream at my kids…….I take away privileges and allow my kids to earn them back..when they were younger and misbehaved, I put them in their rooms for “time out” and guess what? it worked great!!..it is possible to raise kids without hitting them. As I said above, my opinion is that it is wrong to hit your kids.

Whatever works for you western.
I started the original post and the point of this post is: Should our government tell us how to raise our children? California is trying to pass a law to ban spanking your children, punishable up to 1000 dollar fine and a year in jail.
Diane Baumrind, a research phsychologist at the University of California at Berkley states, ” spanking is no more or less harmful than a mild scolding, timeout or other developmentally appropriate level and kind of punishment”.
I’m not saying spanking should be your only form of discipline, but when time out’s aren’t effective, and you and I both know, they aren’t always effective, than a spanking on the bum is occasionally called for.
I see unruly kids almost on a daily basis that absolutely rule over their parents. The reason for this is, the kids know they won’t get anything worse than a time out or a “don’t do that”. And sometimes that just doesn’t work.

The government should not be telling us how to discipline our children. If your methods work for you that’s great. Personally I don’t see anything wrong with the occasional spanking. It didn’t harm me in anyway, make me depressed or withdrawn as an adult and it certainly made me be more obediant and respect authority.

I’ll give you an example of a spanking we recently gave our daughter. She’s 3 1/2 years old, and we just got a new kitten. The kitten is really fiesty and when she picked the kitten up, it scratched her on the face and made her cry. We explained to her why she shouldn’t pick up the kitten and told her the kitten didn’t know any better and was only playing. The following day she picked up the kitten and it happened again. Once again we explained to her why she shouldn’t be picking up the kitten and told her if she did it again, she’d sit on her naughty chair. To make a long story short, over the course of a week she continued picking up the kitten and disobeying us. The naughty chair and a scolding just wasn’t working so she got a swat on the butt and some privelages taken away for the night. Since then she has not picked up the kitten and it’s been a month since this incident happened.
We don’t make a habit of spanking our child everytime she doesn’t listen, but sometimes a situation arises that warrants a swat on the butt and it worked for me growing up and it’s working for our child growing up. There IS a difference between spanking and beating.
Nevermind in post 1, wasn’t spanked out of discipline, they were beaten and abused, which is why they have the thought process they have. They state in their post that they were “slapped, shoved, punched and hit with a belt”. Yeah….that’s abuse, not discipline.
Another point I’d like to make is: we didn’t have all these school shootings back when I was growing up, when corporal punishment was still alive and well in our schools. I believe it should be brought back and used in every school. Many parent’s don’t bother discipling their children in this day and age, and that duty ends up falling upon our teachers in our public schools across this country. Our teachers should be there to teach our children, not discipline and teach them the manners that should be learning in the home.
IMO

Thanks for the scoop on the real deal there in Cali. but I don’t think the country will ever stop thinking of Californians of being fruity and nutty! You’re pretty much stuck with that one!

No i dont think that spanking children shouldent be outlawed i spank my kids and i will keep on spanking them until they graduate from high school

My parents used a leather belt on my bare butt when I acted up. It didn’t damage me in ANY way and I turned out great. I didn’t end up withdrawn, depressed or pscychologically harmed. These parents that coddle their children and don’t give them any form of punishment other than a “time out” are the ones that end up with kids shooting up schools because they’ve held in their feelings their whole life, or the opposite occurs where they end up being big emotional babies.
People need to stop being their childs friend and start being a parent. Discipline is part of life, and sometimes a good spanking is needed.
Of course it shouldnt be your only form of discipline and you shouldn’t spank them for every little thing. But when you child continues to do something that you’ve told them over and over not to, or they talk back & throw tantrums…..by all mean, whoop that butt!
just my 2 cents

That’s right I did. And NO government official, local or Federal, is going to tell me how to raise my children and/or whether to use corporal punishment. It’s worked for my family and many other familys I know. All we need now is to get others to do the same and stop coddeling their children. I’ll put my children up against ANYBODY’s any day of the week. Lets see who’s are better disciplined, have better manners, more polite and further advanced intelluctually. I see it every single day. My children are much more well behaved than at least 90 percent of the kids I see out in public. Bet you can’t say the same Babs. There’s a difference between beating your child and disciplining them with a spanking. Some people don’t realize that.

babs? Why do you care what other people do to correct their kids? You seem like you talk trash to anyone who has thoughts different from your own. I think you can just raise your kids the way you want. I will raise mine the way I want and so will everyone else. I do not care if Uncle sam comes over and arrest me for disipling my kids I wont stop ever. I am not scared of the police or government. They are all full of hot air.

I’m pretty sure you’ve already given us this little anecdote in a previous comment above, but thanks again for your lame words of wisdom! (sarcasm intended!)

Discipline is teaching your children self discipline. Children NEED to know what the reactions will be for their actions ahead of time. The key is to be consistent. Yes corporal discipline will at times be needed. In my house it is used as a last resort. We have found that “arms up” time is nearly as effective and it builds arm strength.

Children learn your action point. They will test you up to just before you take action. For many of us if they go any further you are punishing in anger. Simply move your action point up (Consistently). For instance if you ask your child to clean his or her room then tell them no more than twice then take action. At this point you’re not angry and they learn to handle discipline accordingly.

You don’t need to run your home like a boot camp unless you are doing an about face after a lot of bad habits have been formed. Even then once the kids come around and start disciplining themselves you can easy off slowly. Do allow your children to barter or make a case for a decision change from you. Don’t allow them to argue or keep nagging. Te goal is for them to work on there bartering skills. Every so often let them win.

Let the reaction fit the action. Some times it is simply age related. If you are thinking that your sons as acting like a 4 year old and he is, then he is simply acting the way he should. Don’t go overboard on the discipline. If he is acting like a 4 year old and he is 10 then it might be time for an attitude adjustment.

I have found the work of Dr. James Dobson a big help. I went through his Focus on the Family series prior to having kids. http://resources.family.org

Talking out of turn… that’s a paddlin’
Looking out the window… that’s a paddlin’
Staring at my sandals… that’s a paddlin’
Paddlin’ the school canoe… oh, you better believe that’s a paddlin’

-Simpsons, Jasper’s classroom discipline in “The PTA Disbands”

I could never decide what constituted a spanking, a time-out, grounding, or standing in the corner, so I compromised and eliminated spanking. I decided to save that for really horrendous misdeeds. Never had to use it. Even my teenagers were given time outs. You would be amazed at how well that worked. Age was the deciding factor for how long each punishment lasted. Time outs went from 15 seconds to 30 minutes. The same with standing in the corner. Grounding took over in some cases after timeouts as they got older.

This method worked well for me. If it is illegal to hit a spouse, then why can we hit our defenseless children?

I was an abused child, spankings would have been a relief. I swore never to spank, but I ended up having anger control issues and doing other things in my anger…mostly knuckled the kids on their heads, throwing convenient at-hand items across the room at them, etc.

My grandchildren aren’t spanked (or abused) by my daughter and her husband, so at least she was able to break the chain. My other daughter has no children.

I don’t believe in violence as a means to solve anything, and the kids just learn that bigger folks can pick on smaller ones or end up with hair trigger tempers, as I did.

Even with all that, I just can’t figure out if I’m against spanking. I just think that until the child gets old enough to understand reason (so they understand why a timeout or grounding is being done) a spanking might be more effective.

That being said, I’m never for a beating or being hit (and I DO understand the difference between spanking and hitting) but I accept that my point of view seems difficult to defend, because when do you draw the line and who gets to make the decision, etc.

So the cleanest solution would be to outlaw spanking altogether. Teach parents how to handle discipline issues in a different way.

I don’t think our society is there, yet.

I don’t profess to be my kids’ “friend”; I am their parent and there is a difference. My kids are wonderful, well-behaved children and I have never spanked (hit) them.

I think hitting your kids (call it spanking if you like) is wrong and only teaches them that hitting can be a solution to a problem.

“guarantee” ha ha that comment alone gave me more insight than anything else you’ve said. Thanks for the chuckle.

Guest: If your normally well behaved 4-year old daughter suddenly began acting up and misbehaving for a week as you state, do you suppose there could have been something bothering her that wasn’t readily apparent to you?

I’m sure there are many methods of child raising out there, and everyone thinks that their way is the best way. I always found that the positive worked best for me. The couple of times I tried the negative it did not work well for anyone involved. I felt extremely guilty and my children were resentful and acted out in other ways — doing poorly at school, fighting and being disrespectful of their siblings and peers. The one area that I am real bad in is “laying on the guilt”, but I am a work in process and am working hard to overcome that failing. To me a child is the most precious gift we will ever have, and I can’t see myself hitting my gift.

nemisis…it wasn’t something that happened suddenly. I just gave one example. There are times when positive interaction, time outs, grounding, & taking things away from her (or my other children for that matter) just don’t work. When I have to repeatedly correct them on the same issue time after time, I resort to a swat on the butt and it works everytime. I’m not telling anyone how to raise their children, just what works for me. My children don’t resent me and I sure as heck don’t feel guilty about it. There are consequences to our actions and teaching our young ones this at an early age is very important.

I’ve been witness time and again to the way you and others discipline and it never works. I see how it doesn’t work with my sister and her kids and I’ve seen how it doesn’t work with friends and their children. Because children know there won’t be any consequences, so they’ll continue to act up and misbehave.
Like other topics on this site….we’ll just have to agree to disagree. What my wife and I do works great for us. If the way you raise your kids works for you, then great.
Happy Holidays!

You make a very good point. And I agree that it’s a touchy subject where both sides feel strongly about the way they discipline their child/children.
What I would like to hear though, is how those people that don’t use corporal punishment or spanking as a means of discipline, how they go about dealing with certain issues when their children are naughty. Instead of just saying they don’t approve of a certain method or how bad or terrible they think it is.
Thanks for your input Nemisis.

Love the site. First IF discussion forum with substance I’ve read! So I have to put my two cents in to one of my most empassioned topics. I will try not to write a short novel, but have so many points I feel strongly about, but I’ll try for the top three:
Firstly, one of my favorite quotes came from a gentleman who was raised via the “Woodshed Syndrome.” (ie: My folks took me to the woodshed for a whippin’ ’cause thats what was done in my granddaddy’s day…….) Ahhhhh progress.
I digress… his quote : “I grew up just fine ‘in spite’ of being spanked.”
Secondly, I was raised with the belief that only the lowest of the low hit their children, as they were uneducated as to any other child-rearing methods. Across the pond, I have witnessed generally the same thing. Not referencing class, social stature, etc. of course, but the same mentality. Many people have not been taught how to redirect children, among other methods and how to show them respect. A child cannot respect you until they have experienced it themselves. My mother brought up two children by herself and never lifted a hand to either one of us. She didn’t have to! My brother and I didn’t fight, or argue. We were taught to love each other unconditionally and shown how to do so. Sibling bickering, rivalry, argumentative distancing, is a common thread that runs through almost every family I meet. Whenever I comment on it, I hear “Oh, come on! Its totally normal to fight with your brother/sister…” Well guess what? It doesn’t have to be. Parents can stop the cycle, if they choose to and can do it without corporal punishment. It can be done. My brother and I are living, loving proof.
[edited by site admin, there you go and praise the site and I have to do this, sorry but we don't allow religious discussion here anymore. rest of comment was great though 8^)]

To the non-spankers who think all children who are spanked will have a tendency towards violence, will use violence to solve problems (teaches children that hitting is an appropriate way to deal with a situation), will just learn that bigger folks can pick on smaller ones (think “Might makes right)or teach children that hitting is an appropriate way to deal with a situation)etc.

That is like saying all people who don’t spank will raise whiny, demanding, disobedient, brats and is not fair. Too many people spanked as children or not spanked have turned out way good.

People are way too complex to blame spanking or not spanking them as kids on all future behavior. Factor besides discipline will help decide how a person’s life turns out. Personal accountability will be number one. No discipline is bound to send a kid on a bad road but there are probably exceptions even for them.

I am personally for spanking, as one choice of many kinds of punishment/discipline if I had kids. As a nanny and babysitter there has never been a option to spank but I was tough on bad behavior. When a child would not respond to a warning, I took away a favorite toy for whole days or a week, and made the child sit out from whole activities, not just five minutes. I made sure the non spanking consequences always “hurt” The child would have probably preferred the spanking if it had been a option. Without strong consequences there is no reason for a child to try to curb his behavior.

What discipline you use BE CONSISTANT! Remember you are influencing a life.

moosegirl I would just give up. People on here for some reason have these crazy ideas on how we all should live its funny and anoying.

1.no guns
2.no spanking
3.no food stamps
4.no smoking
5.no freedom of speech
6.no truth or realism
7.no living out of the box

ooh, I am pretty scared!!

and yes, I have commented before: I was spanked, a lot…and now as a parent of three very well-behaved, straight-A students who have never been spanked, I see that it is a loss of control by a parent. Call it what you will, but if you need to resort to hitting, you have lost all control….and trust me, your child will lose respect for you…….

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one concerned with guest123’s (or are you live free?) post. Being a parent is hard some days but from what I read and how you worded the problem, it sounds like you are incredibly angry at a lot of things. Maybe the daycare was wrong, but in the future if a lot of people notice behavioral issues, you might want to take a deep breath, step back, and try to be as objective as possible. Perhaps there are things you can change about your method of discipline, or perhaps there is an issue that if addressed now could help save your little girl a lot of trouble in school later.

I understand you were mad, but the way you yelled at and said things to the daycare reminded me of a junior high girl losing control instead of being a little more matter of fact and calm. Like an adult. When a parent flies off the handle and rants and raves, it only makes you look out of control and unstable. If you did this in front of your daughter, you should know better. If not, good.

There are employees of school districts and daycares who have had hundreds if not thousand of children come through every year. They learn what is generally normal behavior and what is out of bounds. Yes, they may be wrong sometimes, but ask for their observations about her behavior. Not their assumptions, but direct, observable behavior (actions and words) on your daughter’s part. Then you know facts to work with.

Like babs I was concerned about the amount of rage in your post and I worry you are taking it out on the wrong people. I’m not against reasonable spanking (a spat on the butt to get their attention, not to “hurt real good”) , but I am concerned by what you said you are overdoing it and will end up raising a hostile child who is learning from your rage and hostility. Good luck.

livefree: the fact that you mention filing “tort claims” on more than one ocassion on this site, speaks volumes of your character and the type of person you are. YOU are part of this country’s problem with wanting to take everybody to court if you dont get your way! Pretty sad if you ask me!

a bigot is someone that shuns others for actions they do them selves. (Snicker)

Okay, just to throw some science into the mix: this is actually a bit troubling….

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hfFJ2o-5pwO6alsig-o7kJRf7IVQD8V4ATU00

Seems a professor from New Hampshire conducted a study on how spanking affects those spanked in their later sexual relations among other things. Very interesting reading.

I should mention that neither of my husbands were spanked/beaten. Both are very well behaved adult males, and neither of them were much for corporal punishment for the kids we raised together.

So a child that is not spanked probably won’t grow up to be a parent who wants to spank.

Joe, BTW, did you notice there is an ad popping up on this site for something called “paddle spankings?” I wanted to click on the link but I already get enough weird spam in my email inbox. . .

i think spankings do work because when i was younger the minute i heard i was going to be spanked i stopped what i was doing. I never did it again, and i respected my mom as the person i should be listening to. Im 13 years old and i dont think they should outlaw spanking because alot of kids who never got spanked end up doing what they want, becoming bratty, dont respct anyone, and basicly running their homes. I do agree that some parents need to chillax and dont abuse their kids but just coming from a kid, spanking works.

I agree with CR67. Shay, thanks for sharing. Others may agree or disagree but we try to share our opinions and have an open discussion about the issues.

I like to encourage young people to get involved in their community and that would include forums such as this.

I obviously was not clear, what I was agreeing with CR67 about was that it was good that Shay was sharing an opinion.

I think that any physically violent force used on someone smaller/weaker than you are, in an effort to impact them in some way, is probably harmful.

So even if I disagree with Shay, (and CR67 about the distinction), I do appreciate the young person participating in this forum and voicing an opinion.

I think we all need a spanking!

Starsaglow……That’s a whole other post for another day!

I don’t know if I agree that anger is always second to fear, but I do think it’s second quite a bit of the time. But on the whole, I’m curious how it’s normal to be angry just because someone disagrees with you…

We see lots of times on these comments where someone seems to get angry and defensive and goes on the attack, when someone disagrees with them. Some people think that if you disagree with them, it’s as much as telling them they are dumb or stupid or a bad person, instead of understanding that you just disagree and both your positions could be valid even if different.

I think people can be passionate about something they feel strongly about, and have strong emotions in play during the discussion. But anger over a difference in opinions is very foolish because it doesn’t make the disagreement go away, or help foster mutual respect…it just interjects a roadblock in the dialogue.

Wow. Was THAT a load of high-falutin’ doubletalk outta my mouth, or what? Shame on me! Live_free, what was the point you were trying to make in comment #124? Because you can tell that we disagree with what it appears you were trying to say…

CR67: Do you currently spank (hit) your kids? Just curious; I know other people who were spanked (hit) who do it to their kids and then I also know people who were that vow never, ever to lay a hand on a child….

Sorry about the spank/hit thing, but I do think we all should agree that forcibly placing your hand on a child is “hitting”, regardless of what title you put on it.

I’m not going to continue to repeat myself. I started this post 130 comments ago, so you’re welcome to go back and re-read my views & opinions. As I continue to point out, you have your opinion on this topic and I have mine. You can throw out every study you want & list 100 links on this topic, but it’s not going to change my mind on this issue. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I know what’s worked for me and if your way works for you, than thats great.
Take care & have a great wknd!

Who cares if CR67 spanks. CR said it worked for him….so obviously, his kids haven’t turned into murderers by being disciplined. Neither have many other kids…..just like you….your experience is that not spanking has done well. Great.

I would ask all those non-spankers out there if they would like the tables turned on them. If the government announced tommorrow that spanking would be required of all parents to keep their kids in line. If the parents don’t want to do so, they can drop their kids off at government run discipline centers. Some bureaucrat can spank your kids. How well would that set with you? Wouldn’t you say that the government should not be in the business of telling parents how to raise their kids? I suspect the answer would be yes.

The point to be made here is that the government should stay out of the spanking debate. We all know what physical child abuse is. Spanking has been done for centuries. Society has not gone into the toilet by discipling it’s members, nor has it gone into the toilet through using other means of discipline—it is a parental function to choose what is best for their kids….not the government.

No problem with your definition. I am not telling you how to raise your kids….please don’t tell me how to raise mine. It strikes me of the government paternalism of Hillary Clinton…it takes a village to raise a child. There are some in the village that shouldn’t be raising any kids at all. There are some in the village that have good intentions but the next step will be to tell me I can’t give my kids certain foods or it is child abuse too. The incrementalism starts when we abdicate our parental roles to the government. What has been around for quite awhile is this movement to let the government decide everything for us….to take care of us….and that is an idea that has been around for way too long.

The government couldn’t take care of Katrina. They can’t take care of poverty either. I was in Washington D.C. and observed homeless people sleeping on the heating vents near the Housing and Urban Development Headquarters. Letting the government dictate that spanking is a crime takes away more parental authority than you can grasp.

I am not a complete idiot to suggest that just because something has been done one way for ever that is should remain in place. However, absent a clear and convincing empirical evidence that spanking harms children, there is no justifiable government or public interest that can be made to take away parental responsibility and authority.

If you want to not spank your kids that is fine with me. However, I ask you to have the same respect and not impose your moral judgments onto my family and my parenting. As I stated before, it is a moral judgment at work. There is no empirical evidence that clearly points out that all kids who are spanked turn out to be monsters.

I looked at it. The citations don’t point to any empirical studies. They are merely observations.

It’s kind of like the observation that all men who read Playboy are rapists….or that sexual abuse victims end up being perpetrators. These are observations (opinions if you will) but they are obviously not empirically true. If it were true, there would be a whole lot more sexual abuse going on.

Kind of like spankings, some doctors can offer an opinion and cite some other doctor’s opinion. That does not make it fact.

Hmm, so all the studies cited in the American Academy of Pediatrics (keep reading guys; the cites are at the end of the article, as footnoted) position paper as well as the University of New Hampshire study cited in post 107 arent’ “empirical” enough for you?? Wonder what definition of that word you are using???

Comparing a position taken by the AAP, after numerous studies, with men reading playboy. . . hmmmm… interesting “empiricism.”

But again, I sense that there is a great deal of defensiveness on this issue; no, no one likes to be told “how to parent.” But if I read that the American Academy of Pediatricians recommends something and discourages something else, I certainly weigh that information. Kinda like children’s car seats; no one used them just 30 years ago. Now we have to, because the experts simply pointed out how dangerous it was not to.

Now we have experts telling us that spanking is bad for kids. Same reasoning should apply, regardless of how it “has always been.”

I agree that “kids today” (ha ha boy do I sound old!) aren’t as respectful and well-behaved as I recall my generation being. However, I don’t think that has to do with spanking; I think it has to do with a societal shift where no one ever loses or suffers consequences (such as a failing grade in school); everyone always wins! no one keeps score at soccer or basketball before 6th grade so that the kids feel good about themselves! I think this is probably an offshoot of that “be friends rather than a parent” to your kids that you make reference to, Mike; I think it is sad and creating a sense of entitlement for mediocraty.

But, I know many, many kids who are respectful and hard-working, with no such sense of entitlement, who have never been spanked, either.

my comment on anger came from comment 100 and after 007 was saying some stuff that was foolish.

Study: Spanking Affects Adult Sex Lives

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hfFJ2o-5pwO6alsig-o7kJRf7IVQD8V4ATI80

Give me a break please! I was “spanked” as a child and I’ve never coerced a woman to have sex with me….let alone masochistic & unprotected.
Trust me, you can find a study that will favor your opinions regarding ANY topic online…..doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s one study and/or one person’s opinion.
Don’t believe everything you read.
Thanks for the laugh though…..that was a good one!

Criminalizing spanking could potentially worsen circumstances for at-risk children whose parents might shy from seeking parenting classes or other interventions if they face criminal penalties for honestly discussing discipline or disclosing behaviors they seek assistance with – their own or their childrens. Just a thought. When we get that city wide surveillance web cam network up and running we can extend it to inside peoples homes in case they try to spank their kids out of public view.

But a real thing of beauty. Making everything illegal creates employment and stimulates the economy!

I’m curious to know how many of you were verbally/emotionally abused when you were younger and which you felt was more damaging, a swat on the rear end (not beating) or some verbal/emotional abuse?

here are a few for starters:

http://www.neurodiversity.com/verbal_abuse.html

http://www.factscourtwatch.org/Emotional-Psychological%20Abuse%20Fact%20Sheet.htm

http://tyc.state.tx.us/prevention/verbalag.html

so see, verbal agression on this site made me use that bad word in the chatbox lol jk!

Oh yea I am really going to go tell him that and get punched in my face for sticking my nose in his buisness. I feel bad for him but what can I say I feel more bad for his now ex wife who has the kids alone and left him because of his temper.

verbal abuse…like calling all the IFLZ posters speeding fat j@#$ offs?

not