I’d like to pose a question which I’m sure many of you have a firm opinion on. What do you think of the current build up of troops in Iraq? Do you support our President on this issue? Do you think this is a good thing or do you think we’re just sending our troops to their imminent demise?
I’ve kind of got mixed feelings on this one. Part of me thinks this is just another
Vietnam war and there’s no possible way we’ll ever win. These people we’re fighting are set in their ways and I honestly think there’s no way we’ll ever change their minds and bring “Democracy” to this country. Not to mention….how would each of you feel if another country came over here and tried to occupy our land, tell us what to do and how to do it?? (an example…the movie Red Dawn) I guarantee most of you, like myself, would be out there with a rifle picking them off one by one, just like the Iraqis are doing to our troops now.
The other side of me thinks…if we pull out now, everyone will think we were defeated and we will have lost what little respect we have left that the world has for our country. Not to mention we’d have left a country in shambles and in a much worse state then when Saddam was in power. We haven’t even begun to rebuild the infrastructure that we promised 2 years ago.
I believe we need to start by ridding ourselves of the dependence for foreign oil, because that’s basically what all this boils down to.
I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinion on this as I think we as a country need to stand up and find a solution to this problem quickly before we continue to loose more brothers, sisters, Mothers, Fathers, Aunts & Uncles to this senseless war they call “the war on terror”. Our President, our government is supposed to work for us… “We The People”…
What do you think? How do you feel about this? And what can we as a nation do about it?
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{ 47 comments… read them below or add one }
I have served 7 years, and I opposed the Iraq war from the start, and I oppose the surge. I did support the strike in Afghanistan, because that is where our true enemy was (is?)
Here’s an ABC report on how the Iraq war costs could have been spent otherwise (like $150 for every person in the world, or a few grand for all Americans):
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/story?id=2844304&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
By the author ending his/her article with,
“I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinion on this as I think we as a country need to stand up and find a solution to this problem quickly before we continue to loose more brothers, sisters, Mothers, Fathers, Aunts & Uncles to this senseless war they call “the war on terrorâ€. Our President, our government is supposed to work for us… “We The Peopleâ€â€¦”
I don’t feel this author wants a discussion of ideas, as stated, or he/she wouldn’t have ended with,
“I think we as a country need to stand up and find a solution to this problem quickly before we continue to loose more brothers, sisters, Mothers, Fathers, Aunts & Uncles to this senseless war they call “the war on terrorâ€.”
It doesn’t seem to me that author has left much room for differing opinions of points of view.
I see your point, the author did communicate their viewpoint.
Please feel free anyways to offer your logic. I have sometimes started with one viewpoint and had it changed through the course of discussions here.
What is it with people not reading my posts completely??? I ask for everyones opinion and points of view! Instead of bashing me as an author, why don’t you put YOUR point of view in for all to see. Afterall… That is what I’m looking for here!
We are in a no win situation here and it’s President Bush’s own ego that he’s worried about bruising, not the soldiers on the front line laying down there lives each and every day! We have stretched our military so thin by this war, what if China or North Korea wanted to invade our country? They’d take it over in a heartbeat! (not that we all wouldn’t put up a fight) But the point is, the President is sending MORE troops over there, which I think is a bad decision. Their needed here more then their needed in Iraq. Bush needs to withdraw our troops and admit he was wrong about the WMD’s! Put the focus BACK on Bin Laden! We haven’t heard HIS name mentioned in a very long time!
I’ve almost always considered myself pro-military, almost rabidly so. While I have not served, I have several close friends who have, including several in the Operation Desert Storm, and some that have served in the current Iraqi conflict. I love to hear the stories that my friends tell about their time, even though some of those stories are hard to hear and hard for them to tell. I love the tech, the guns, the choppers, the planes, the camo, pretty much everything about our Armed Forces. However, when I heard the President’s speech announcing the troop “surge†of 20,000+, I was deeply saddened. (When I later learned that the 20k were only ‘combat troops’ and it would additionally require ANOTHER 16-21k of support troops, I went from saddened to pissed off.)
NO! I do NOT support the announced troop “surge†that President Bush is going ahead with, even though 70% of Americans OPPOSE it. It should also be noted that 70% of Americans don’t think that the troop surge will help the situation in Iraq anyway. Oh, and one last note, this “surge†will not even bring troop levels high enough to match the level of troops in December, 2005. (Note, the last tidbit was based on John Stewart’s commentary on the Daily Show, I cannot verify that info.) Now, to see why I feel that way, read on. (WARNING: the following contains information that could be hazardous to your political outlook, if you are a conservative…)
Iraq is a lose/lose situation. We went to war under the false pretense that Saddam was linked to 9/11 and he had WMD’s, and have degenerated the stability of the country, and to a greater extent, the region. While not widely reported in the mainstream press, documents have surfaced that describe the U.S. and British effort to alter the appearance of the situation in Iraq in order to make the case for war more favorable. (Read about one of those documents HERE, be warned this is a fairly anti-war website). I’m sure that many will call me un-American for even suggesting such a thing, but that is what I believe because that is what ALL the facts show.
Soldiers from Idaho Falls, Pocatello, Boise, St. Anthony, and the Teton Valley have all fought (and some died) in Iraq. What has it gained us? Yes, we got rid of a despot, who killed his own people often, but how many Iraqis have died in the fighting since we began “post combat operations� To play Devil’s advocate, how many would Saddam have killed in that time if he were still in power (and alive)? We have also made truckloads of money for no-bid contractors like Halliburton. So, those are good things, right? And, for now, we have prevented terrorists from attacking us on American soil because it is easier to kill Americans in Iraq. In total, 3084 U.S. troops have died in combat operations in Iraq, and over 23,000 have been wounded. (Those numbers are from the DoD’s own casualty report, found HERE, updated every Tuesday.) In addition to the human cost (and isn’t one life too many?) there is the financial cost of over $505 Billion dollars (including proposed spending of $70 Billion for FY 2007).
Also, consider the following points about the cost of the war. (Source HERE, and yes, I am aware that they are called “liberal politicsâ€):
–All of the spending on the war is deficit-based, leading to the largest national debt EVER
–$9 billion of US taxpayers’ money related to the Iraq war and $549.7 million in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors is LOST
–Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported – $1.4 Billion
–In July 2004 there were 14 average daily insurgent attacks. In December 2006, there were an average of 185 daily insurgent attacks.
If you still think that the situation in Iraq is winnable, consider this from the most recent National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) regarding the Iraq War. (The NIE is a document prepared by the U.S. Intelligence community, under the direction of the Director of National Intelligence, to help U.S. policy makers prepare foreign policy in a manner which will best protect U.S. interests.)
While stating that describing the Iraqi conflict as a civil war does not “adequately capture the complexities†of the situation in Iraq, the NIE does go on to describe, “The term ‘civil war’ accurately describes key elements of the Iraqi conflict, including the hardening of etho-sectarian identities, [and] a sea change in the character of the violenceâ€. The report then went on to add, “Unless efforts to reverse these conditions show measurable progress … [in] the coming 12 to 18 months, we assess that the overall security situation will continue to deteriorate at rates comparable to the latter part of 2006.â€
So, I know that I definitely took the long way, and many of you have stopped reading by this point, but let me restate:
NO! I do NOT support the announced troop “surge†that President Bush is going ahead with, even though 70% of Americans OPPOSE it. We have lost enough lives, and spent enough money, support our troops by bringing them home!
One more thing before I go. I’m sure that I can predict the response of some who read my words here. My instinct is that they will be somewhere along these lines:
“You are a terrorist-loving, Bush-bashing, “blame America first”traitor. You are in league with evil-doers who hate our freedoms. By all counts you are a liberal, and as such clearly desire the terrorists to succeed and impose their harsh theocratic restrictions on us all. You are fit to be hung for treason! Luckily George W. Bush is tapping your internet connection and is now aware of your thought-crime. Have a nice day…. in Guantanamo!†So, an opinion was queried, an opinion was offered, and if you just want to bash ME, send me an email: ronin1 at cableone dot net
I pretty much agree with Rich – it seems like the United States is developing a containment policy against radical Islam, which will only work if we activate treaties and get many, many more nations on our side – though, this would likely lead us into a WWIII scenario that would be tragic for everyone.
The near-East is a powder-keg and is incredibly unstable, but I’m not sure these policies of subduing and replacing regimes is going to work. I’m not smart enough to know how to resolve the rift between the West and radical Islam, but I think we’re discovering that military force will not resolve the problem.
So, I am against the troop surge. I believe we’re simply creating more American targets and creating more opportunities for young radical Muslims to train in becoming a terrorist.
Perhaps we should do what we did for 200 years before the Neo-cons took power – strike a balance of appeasement and tough politics, and use military force as a starting point for diplomacy, not in place of it.
My comment got lost, so maybe this isn’t the place to post it.
In summary, let me just say I found Jeremy’s thoughts interesting. The Discovery/National Geogaphric/History block of channels have a fascinating new documenatary about when radical Islam began.
It is very clear these extreme views date back to Hitler. Indeed, when Hitler was running out of troops to fight the Allies, he turned to the Middle East for more troops. The one thing Hilter shared with this extreme group was their hatred of Jewish people.
Another key point is this extreme view of Islam, has continued over decades. Improved technologies allow us to be aware of many things that we didn’t knos previously.
I would strongly encourage anyone who has the opportunity to see this documentary to do so. Some of it is really hard to hear and see.
Details of how Saddam’s mother would purposely hit her belly into door framing and other solid objects trying to induce a miscarrage, aren’t what we hear everyday. It allows one to see why Saddam, along with many others, view their world the way they do and how they identified with Hitler.
I apologize for not remembering the documentary’s name. It is based greatly on two books, with one author being a long time historian from Egland.
I strongly encourage everyone to watch this documentary if you get the chance. If I can find the movie’s name, or the authors, or their books, I’ll post them here.
Sending more troops is “throwing good money after bad”.
As in Viet Nam, you cannot win a war unless you win the hearts and minds of those who’s country you invade. This Iraq war was lost when American soldiers hoisted the Stars and Stripes over Saddam Hussein’s statue just before helping the Iraqis topple it. The war was lost at Abu Graib with the world witnessing the Americans (Christians) humiliating Islamic militant prisoners. The war was lost when, on our nightly news, we witnessed burly American soldiers kicking in the doors of Iraqi citizens. The war was lost when the world heard W refer to our invasion as a “crusade”.
George Bush, who learned nothing of our Viet Nam experience, sent us into battle with no knowledge of how people in a sovereign country would react to an invasion force on their soil. I would bet the farm that many of those Iraqis, who cheered us at Saddam’s overthrow, are now taking up arms against us foreign invaders. The dearth of leadership in this undertaking spelled disaster right from the start and 21,000 more troops will do nothing to change that now.
My younger brother is on his third (3rd) tour in Iraq. He’s not a war monger, just a professional soldier doing what his Commander-In-Chief and his Country has asked him to do. The few times he has been home during the war, he’s always maintained a possitive attitude, refering back to being a Profeesional Soldier, for the family’s benifit he does his best to let us know that he’s always safe with his unit, he knows what he’s doing blah blah blah but I still love the Lunkhead. He has never said anything against the operation, his chain of command (all the way up to GW), and that him and his guys are doing the right thing.
Now I wonder why his Commander-In-Chief could of done the right thing at the start of war. First of all there was the main reason for invading Iraq in the first place…WMD’s. OK there was NO WMD’s found, did GW lie to us, and the troops? I believe he did. GW said the war would be financed with IRAQI Oil Revenues…$500 Billion later no OIL Renevues. Then the reason was “REGIME CHANGE”. DICK, the guy in the back office who has been running the show, said before the war that the U.S. had Saddam “Contained” with no fly zones and sanctions, meanwhile the Iranians were laughing all the way to their NUCLEAR PLants. We had Saddam contained, Saddam had the Iranians contained because he hated them and they hated him, like Saddam hated Syrian President BEEKER Asaad (????). But now GW has the an Army in place to take on the Iranians and get their WMD’s…NOT!. If GW decides, and he is the “DECIDER”, to attack Iran, our troops with have the enemy to the front and to the rear, at this point I wouldn’t put anything past GW. There are some good things that have come out of the war, GW finally got to see Vietnam, DICK in the back room has made a bundle for retirement (Haliburton’s “No-Bid Contract in Iraq), and my Brother found what was left of Specialist Anderson after they got hit by an IED. I hope GW and Dick in the back room can sleep good at night, I know my Kid Brother Can’t.
Our Idaho Falls public library has the Colin Powell autobiography, and it is a great read into the bungling that has been George Bush’s presidency from start to current.
I think history will look back on George Bush not as an evil man, but as a man not nearly intelligent enough to make qualified decisions by himself and who consistently listened to the wrong advisers. Powell was often frustrated by reaching a concensus with Bush and other advisers, only to find out later (often from the news) that Bush had reversed course on advice from Cheney or Rumsfeld.
Powell’s book has several observations from different people trying to talk to Bush, and he always fidgets around not appearing to really listen while Cheney sits in the corner leering with his evil eyes (their actual words). The impression was that Cheney was the one really in charge, and nobody knew for sure what guided Cheney’s decisions.
Cheney even ran his own intelligence and state department operations. Powell discovered a few times that Cheney had sent his own diplomatic messages to foreign countries that were contrary to what Powell’s state department were doing, and Powell would have to advise those countries to respond directly to Cheney’s office.
I think the war was lost when our military had to become the police force.
One of the most truthful political cartoons I have seen recently is Bush standing on a ladder and looking into a meat grinder, with 20,000 troops waiting behind him, and he calls out, “Okay everyone get in here and I’ll think of what to do next.”
I do not think Bush’s historical ego is worth losing any more American lives. I’ll support our soldiers until the end, but I am more convinced daily that Bush has done America wrong with his war.
I look foward to checking out that book. It sounds like an interesting read. I’ve been trying to keep my reading light lately and sticking with my Stuart Woods mystery’s.( his latest Short Straw…if you like his work…is excellent!)
Back on topic, I can’t believe Cheney lasted as long as he did, as everyone knew he was the one pulling all the strings. This will definately be a decade for the history books that’s for sure! 2008 can’t come soon enough for me….I’m ready to get Bush out of office! It embarrasses me as an American when Bush does ANY public speaking whatsoever! It’s so hard to watch him speak and realize the rest of the world is seeing just what an idiot he really is. He speaks at a high school level at best and continuously makes a fool of himself. It’s really quite scary to think a man like that has been running our country for the past 6 years!! (well…I wouldn’t say “running”, more like ruining!)
I pray for our soldiers each and every day…….we can only hope for their quick and safe return home. All we can do is support them and show our appreciation to them when they return.
“Mad World” mashup:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5584475639412029808&q=mad+iraq&hl=en
nice clip Joe…
On the same site…that Iraqi speed demon clip is pretty wild!
I think those Iraqi’s have watched the bootleg copy of The Fast & Furious…Tokyo Drift, too many times!
I actually have to agree, the so-called “surge” is clearly against the majority of our (Americans) wishes, yet Bush continues to pursue his silliness with this war, based on ego. This is just a pure waste of our time, money, and precious lives of our own people, neighbors, and families.
I do not blame the Iraqis for fighting back against the U.S Troops. Look what happend to them. Its the same thing as Russia coming here and hanging george bush and taking our guns away from us then telling us to comply to what they say. Then watching russians put a new ruler here and giving us a choice between the guys they chose for us. You all know what America’s youth would do. They would riot, Start fires, make bombs, shoot back. Its not our job to over throw rulers. If the Iraqis hated Sadam so bad they would have assasinated him a long time ago. History shows that. I am for bringing our boys and girls home and letting Iraq deal with it. Its not our problem. We need to deal with Iran, N Korea, China. Let the small Nations deal with thier own issues. I would really hate to see world war 3 directed at the United States.
Excellent post localIF!
Why are Americans these days so afraid to voice their opinions and stand up to their government? It seems to me that people as a whole just don’t care. If something doesn’t affect them immediately or on a personal level, then we just sit back on our couch at night and continue to let our government run this country into the ground. I guarantee you if we stood together and protested this war the way Vietnam was protested against in the late 60’s early 70’s, our troops would be home by the end of the year. Yet we continue to allow our government to send over more and more troops.
GW has turned our country into a laughing stock all because of his personal vendatta, and we have all sat back and watched it happen for far too long. All the while our men and women of the armed forces continue to die each and every day we’re over there! Every day another family losses a son or daughter. Every day another child losses their mother or father. American military casualties have exceeded 25 THOUSAND, and thats just OUR troops. Not to mention the non-mortal casualties are well over 32,000!
And then we have the Iraqi citizens who for the most part, just want to go about their day and live a normal life. Here is a quote from the US Embassy in London website “The British medical journal Lancet reported in October that an independant academic study, using a statistical sampling method, estimated that approximately 650,000 Iraqis have died as a consequence of war since March 2003. The study was led by the John Hopkins School of Health working with Al Mustansinirya University in Baghdad. The studys authors acknowledge that their number is in the midpoint of an estimate that ranges between 390,000 and 940,000″!
That is a staggering number! Just as localIF stated….if that were happening HERE from some other country invading US….we would be fighting back just as the Iraqis are. You can’t really CAN’T blame them. We should have left that country a long time ago!
How many more of our young men & women have to die before people wake up and do something about this?
Do I support more troops being sent?
Answer – “NO!”
This is the president who two weeks ago declared “Money trumps peace sometimes”. That’s an irresponsible thing for a man in GWB’s position to say. I don’t care to support the sociopathic meanderings of a “leader” who speaks/thinks like that.
I support our troops – I want them to come home. I want us out of Iraq, I bet ma and pa Iraqi citizen want us out too.
I believe it’s bad and wrong on deep, ethical levels that we are there doing what we’re doing. “War on terrorism”? Is there anybody on earth who still believes that particular load of horse apples?
It’s not a war on terrorism. It’s a war on high oil prices. It’s MONEY trumping PEACE.
No more troops. No more troops. No more troops. No more troops.
I guess that sums up my thinking on this subject.
Peace.
Gypsy.
Not trying to sound flipant here but has anyone seen news stories comparing the murders in just one US state with the U.S. deaths that have occurred in Iraq? If you breakdown the yearly deaths in Iraq and compare them with just a single state’s yearly murder rates it’s enough to make me very uncomfortable. So uncomfortable that I pose a question? How come everyone is after Bush about sending our troops into the meat grinder that is Iraq but same people say little about the yearly deaths that occur here at home? Per capita our troops are safer in an Iraq at war then in certain city neighborhoods here in the U.S.
I know i’m going to get a ton of people that can’t wait to slam me on my thoughts here but all I ask is why are the press is not focusing attention on these urban centers that have become cess pools mainly under liberal leadership?
And just in case somebody wants to throw the ‘it’s easy for me to say’ card I served in desert shield/storm and was on active duty for 6 years.
Last point. It looks to me like the Bush team is admitting to the mistakes that have taken place and are trying one last strategy to try and bring the Iraqi police up to speed so that we can depart. If we didn’t do this wouldn’t we be throwing in the towel on Iraq and basically telling all the families that have lost loved ones to this point that the sacrafice of their loved ones was for nothing? We have invested alot of money and blood and have not followed a good war plan up to this point but I think the families of those who have died and to the families that live in Iraq that want a stable peaceful country we owe it to them to give it one last shot. If it does not work we can at least say we pursued all options.
flyonthewall -
I don’t agree that the “liberal leadership” created any “urban cess pools” in the US. Urban “cess pools” as you called them have been around for a long time – and they exist in many places on earth – not just in the US where we have liberals who occasionally hold leadership positions. “Urban cess pools” are a deep and disturbing fact of life. They are born of things like poverty, lack of education, and even sometimes upper class exploitation. “Liberal leadership” may or may not play a roll in any of these scenarios – but I disagree that it is a cause. We could just as easily say “conservative leadership” causes ubran cess pools. It’s just blaming – but it does no good in repairing.
I have noticed that when Bush’s choices and leadership skills are on the table there is always at least one person in every crowd who says “Yeah Bush might not be perfect but look at what the liberals/Hillary/Democrats do”.
Pointing the finger at “the other guy” is a weak argument at best, an obvious red herring at worse.
The Bush administration admits that “mistakes that have been made” – keep in mind – mistakes “having been made” is not the same thing as “I made a mistake”.
“Mistakes having been made” could, if given enough creativity, probably be blamed on liberals too!
I agree that the Iraqi families probably want a peaceful stable country – I also suppose they might not have preferred our particular brand of interference in the first place. It isn’t as if we have helped inspire that peacefulness.
Spin it this way or that – war does not lead to “stable peace”. War leads to bodies, new borders / rulers, and new distribution of wealth. War is not about peace. War is about control. Control is not about peace. Control is about assets.
If we want a “peaceful stable country” then we might start at home by perhaps spending all that war money on cleaning up “urban cess pools”.
That’s what I think, for what anybody thinks it’s worth.
My cousin called me crying from Iraq. He told me he had to go on st patrol and he was the turret gunner he told his buddy to warm up the vehicle and as soon as he turned the knob to the bathroom (BOOOOOOOOOM!!!!) the entire block shook like thunder. He ran out the back of the building to find fire smoke and a crater where his buddies had been. I do not see that kind of violence in the united states anywhere. I think we should use war money on education so maybe people are smart enough to avoid war all together. And maybe create some newer alternative power for mankind that doesnt destroy the earth. GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!!!! come home soon.
The money spent on the war in Iraq alone could have put up wind turbine power houses all over the nation giving us all cheap energy and cleaner air. I seriously mean the entire country could have been wind powered and alot cleaner. It is so sad to see all that money goto killing people and lying to people. I wish I was the president. I would have put us in debt and out of debt by puting power companies out of buisness. And create a wind and solar power grid so large that no terrorist could put us in the stone age. No war could ever stop our nations heart beat. I would get the money back by federalizing the power grid and charging everyone a small fee to use the power. Not by how much power they use but a 1 monthly rate like 30.00 a mo unlimited power usage. Our earth would be so much cleaner. and I would make our roads electric and make cars to run on them. The cars can be charged while on the roads. And have 6 hours of charge for off road and solar panels for off road charging built on cars. I would focus on our nations health. And education.
local IF: That is sad about your cousin. I have heard similar stories from people I know.
The truth about all of this, I feel, is much harsher than most people in this country have any clue about.
Exhibit A: Research what an Empire is.
Here is a start: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:empire&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Exhibit B: Dwight D. Eisenhower’s Farewell address in 1960 (exert)
” This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. ” Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1960
Exhibit C: War Pre-text
Operation Northwoods:
(overview) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
(actual documents) http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
Gulf of Tonkin:
(overview) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident
(actual documents) http://www.nsa.gov/vietnam/index.cfm
Exhibit D: The Military Industrial Complex
http://www.defensenews.com/content/features/2005chart1.html
That is only the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot of information available about this and I encourage you to go do some research if you want to know more.
I hate war, especially unjust and imperialistic forms of war. The sobering fact is that there is not an easy solution for our situation in Iraq, especially now that we are giving Iran the stink eye. After doing a lot of research and stumbling across a lot of this information, I don’t really know what we should(or even can) do about what is happening.
I think there is a industrial power literaly controlling our government. The constitution of the United States says we all shall have the right to bare arms and no man or Government shall infringe on that right. Well if you get a felony wich isnt that hard to get one of those. They give those away for commiting accidental crimes. You are not allowed to have any guns at all. You are not allowed to vote. I think our country has turned into a police state. So all of our countrymen that are tough enough to defend our great nation from tyranny are put in prison or loose the right to bare arms. The law is very unconstitutional they do not want us to ever take back our freedoms so they are disarming americans. And also they send our soldiers to fight in other countries so they can jump start the heart of this nation with jobs and employment, and easy cheap oil sold at outrageous prices. And if our troops arent here to defend us then Bush can just say our country is out of control and put the UN soldiers on our soil to fight us. So really there is nothing anyone can do alone. First America has to wake up its still sleeping and everyone is still sheep grazing on the grass. The police would if 10 million people showed up to the white house and demanded the war stop now. They would seriously kill every one of those people. So me I leave it upto god. If god wants us to be controlled by satan so be it. your flesh may be controlled by Satan but you soul is owned by god. Be a good person and live thru this as a human being with compation. Love thy neibor give to the hungry. Help those who can’t help them selves. Americans need to trust and listen to Americans. Our nation has torn its soul apart. People do not have as many freinds as they used to have. The drug war could be the cause of that and all the unconstitutional laws that pass into effect every year. It is still we the people they didnt take our constitution away we just need to stand up and rise as a nation and demand them back. I want our brothers and sisters to come home from Iraq,and afganistan. I hope all americans love them and honor them for fighting so hard for the war when they didnt even beleieve in fighting it. They didnt fight for us they fought to stay alive until its over. Honor them and the courage they showed by fighting with out a cause. Our troops pledged to defend the constitution of the United States not George Bush. So we the people should honor them and hiss at Bush.
what ever nice comment editor it changed all my words with ones that don’t mean the same thing and made my response incomplete.
*** Site Moderator: A few euphemisms for swear words were deleted, per community comment policy. The single large paragraph was broken into a few smaller paragraphs to increase readability. Words were not rewritten, sentences and paragraphs were not deleted. After a complaint, the smaller paragraphs were merged back into the original single large paragraph. The author’s original voice and intent has been preserved, with the exception of the guideline violations.
NO WORDS OR SENTENCES WERE REWRITTEN TO CHANGE MEANING. ***
Gypsy
Take out my liberal leadership comment on my post and how about commenting on the substance of it. More U.S. citizens are dieing in just two of our states per year due to violent crime then are killed in Iraq. My comment was that people just don’t seem to get hot and bothered about that. It’s not chic or cool to criticize policies or behaviors that have lead to 10’s of thousands of deaths here at home during the same time period this war has been going on. Comment on that Gypsy please i’m sure the families here at home that are victimized everyday would love your concern and your ideas how to help them. I’m just wishing the same energy that people have spent castigating this ‘evil’ president and this evil war could be spent trying to help solve the problems of death here. That’s all liberal or conservative you don’t hear anybody prior to this war getting upset at the violence and death in our cities.
flyonthewall
If you really read my previous reply you will see I did indeed take to heart the substance of it.
Your comments regarding the violence here @ home were addressed by ME when I wrote -
If we want a “peaceful stable country†then we might start at home by perhaps spending all that war money on cleaning up “urban cess poolsâ€.
- If that’s not a response that satisfies you then it’s fine, but it WAS a valid and heartfelt response, and I stand by it.
Thanks!
It seems painfully obvious to me that the war in Iraq is another example of modern American empiricism, as Davin noted. We are engaged in a worldwide war – not merely of influence and power, but of culture as well. Muslims view Western interference in their culture and religious tradition as an extension of the crusades (not aided by the comments from right-wing extremists such as President Bush, who called the war on terror a “crusade” and Anne Coulter, who declared that we should “invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity”.) and are responding as such – with extremism.
However, the counter to American oppression is not necessarily always violent. As an act of rebellion against American cultural imperialism, modern Islamic reformists have actually returned to Islam’s peaceful roots – for example, Islamic feminists now support the use of Burkas (those hoods that women use to cover their faces) as a rebellion against Western objectification of women. What we view as oppressive, Muslim women are using to liberate themselves.
However, I do believe that the use of war in America is oppressive and indicative of a much wider-spread, malicious narrative at hand. Do we need to be reminded of the first George Bush’s declaration of a desire to establish a “New World Order” – a desire shared by John D. Rockefeller and essentially all major corporate giants? The goal of modern warfare is to subdue a population into accepting the culture, then to conquer through apathy and acceptance, rather than to submit to an army.
I believe that Iraqis are reacting the only way they know how to while maintaining their cultural sovereignty – and we should ask ourselves how we would react if, say, Iran decided to dictate our culture for us, replace our government, and decide our fate for us. I believe you would see terrorism on a biblical scale – and we should not be surprised if we see the same result from radical Islam if we continue the practice of neo-Imperialism and cultural tyranny.
Freeing this country from it’s addiction to Middle East oil should be the number one priority in this country.
President Bush will be in Brazil this week–in what can only be seen as a symbolic gesture–to ally this country with the worlds largest ethanol producer. In reality he has no intention of abolishing or even decreasing the 54 cent per gallon tariff this country places on Brazilian ethanol. To do so would be contrary to the desires of corporate giant, Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) and their corn ethanol lobbyists. Better to avoid alienating this “deep pocket” campaign contributor than to actually have the marketplace decide the efficacy of ethanol from sugar cane over corn. If it takes 1.29 gallons of petroleum fuel to produce 1 gallon of corn ethanol, what is gained? If the Brazilians can replace petroleum in their country with sugar cane ethanol and still have enough left for export, we should be their biggest consumer. Protectionism in this country has a sordid history of the political “ins” rewarding those corporate sponsors who help keep them in power, no matter how damaging it may be to the country.
No, if we are to avoid wars like the one we are enmeshed in in Iraq, we should be exploring every workable alternative to fossil fuels (petroleum) that we can, but we should also look very hard at how the political parties in this country are financed. While corporations like ADM have shown us that we have the best polititions money can buy, they have also, in effect, added to our problem of fossil fuel dependency.
So instead of sending more of our best and brightest young men and women–at great expense–into places like Iraq to protect this country’s strategic oil supply, we should instead use those funds to further their educations at colleges and universities and hopefully educate them in the urgent necessity of freeing us from our oil dependency.
Please when your talking about the expansion of influence take a look at recent examples and please comment on them for me.
First Gulf War: Are we dictating to the Saudi’s and the Kuwait’s? Last time I checked the Saudi’s had us remove troops quietly. And not sure how many bases we have in Kuwait??? Bueller…..Bueller….Bueller??????
Perfect example of Bush 1. Panama. Please Jeremy and Davin tell us all what happened in Panama when Noriega was removed. Did we put in a puppet and do we pull the stings of a puppet ruler in Panama? Of course not don’t be dopey. Not only did Panama have free elections and continues to have free elections to this day but we still held to the Carter agreement that gave the canal back to the Panamanians to the the security detriment of the United States as now the Chineese are the big players in Panama. So if we are so empirilistic can you guys explain this???? We invaded took out the government that was killing priests and it’s populace and then what did we do? Why we left, and left lock stock and barrel. The barricks I used to stay in when stationed in Panama now house Panamanians.
Wake up smell the coffee, stop drinking the koolaid and realize the US is the only superpower with any moral authority to accomplish anything. The United Nations is incompetent and impetent in doing anything other then spending money and doing nothing. Darfur anyone???? Ruwanda anyone???
Please do respond to my specifics I would love to know your thoughts.
I’m not sure that Panama is a good analogy for Iraq. First, Panama was a democracy until Noriega took control of the country by killing his oppostion, running puppet candidates in the country’s free elections, and finally seizing ballot boxes after his puppet candidate began losing ground to the opposition candidate (who was financially backed by the U.S.) By comparison, Iraq (or indeed almost none of the countries in the region) has never known democracy. Iraq’s current government was elected democratically, but do they listen to us? No, we cannot even get them to take over control of security in areas that should have been turned over to Iraqi control some time ago.
While I will leave the addressing of your specific comments to others, I think that comparing Iraq to Panama is definitely an apples to oranges comparison, though I think that if Iraq had a history of democracy before Hussein, perhaps things over there would be going differently and the situation would be more like Panama. Also, thanks for the BillOrally reference about mass suicide, it was very classy.
I’ll reply to this when I get back from Vegas in a week. Remind me if I forget, okay?
The evildoer GW is showing no signs of letting up and I see no end to this war in sight. So what is it going to take to end this thing and bring our men and women home? How many more lives do we have to lose each day? How many more soldiers have to come home with missing limbs, and the pyschological damage they’ll have to live with the rest of their lives?
All for what? GW tells us their were WMD’s, which they never found. He told us they would rebuild Iraq and create a Democratic system. Which they have yet to do. He promised to repair all the water, electric and complete infrastructure thats needed to run a city. That STILL has not been done yet. The majority of that country is living without electricity and running water since we occupied their land and blew them back to the stone age.
Is our President that naive’ as to think these proud people are just going to roll over and lay down their weapons? We are a country and a military force that “supposedly” has the most sofisticated weaponry and defense system in the world, and we can’t defeat a country that has nothing but leftover weapons and whatever crude bomb making materials they can put together. So why are we still over there after all these years?
These people will not give up until each one of our soldiers has perished. And do you blame them? Why aren’t we hunting down Bin Laden? Whatever happened to him? Wasn’t that one of the main reasons for going over there?
I mean, what would YOU do if OUR country was invaded? Would you sit on your butts while the occupying force slaughtered your family, your children, your parents…..or would you be out there planting explosives and picking them off one by one with your rifles? Yeah…me too.
So how many more soldiers must we lose before GW realizes this?
He made the Iraqi people promises upon promises that he didn’t deliver upon. It’s time we swallowed our pride and got out of there before we don’t have enough military left to defend our own country from an invasion.
GW has waged his own personal war against Saddam and the Iraqi people and we need to get out before we get ourselves in a real mess and get stuck fighting Iran as well. Bush needs to be impeached and “We the People” need to stop sitting around whining about the enviroment and get our priorities straight!
that’s just my opinion
What do YOU think?
This week that report was issued ranking the Iraq government on 18 key milestones they had to reach.
They barely reached half of the milestones, and the ones that were completed are being criticized as being fudged, not really completed.
Here’s some analysis on it, complete with numerous citations: http://www.nsnetwork.org/node/168
Bush of course sees the report as a glass half full while most everyone else sees it as half empty.
I almost laughed when I read Bush saying politicians should let the military commanders run the show in Iraq. Maybe if Bush had let the intelligence experts run their own show in the beginning we would not be in the Iraq Quagmire.
So I guess it is fitting that Bush puts his fudged progress report on the same shelf with his fudged intelligence reports.
It is absolutely amazing to me that so many Americans have their heads in the sand or too high in the clouds of lala land to understand how dangerous the radical Islamic factions are to this country. Right now they are trying to kill Musharaff in Pakistand to get their hands on the government and the nukes.
If people think Iraq is a quagmire right now, think about what it would be like if the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and other fundamentalists were in control of the middle east. No one is talking about what happens if we leave. Bush and his advisors weren’t talking about what Iraq would look like after we won the war. That was a major mistake. In my opinion, it is a fatal mistake to not begin discussing what a pullout would mean to the United States, Europe and namely western civilization both politically, economically, and culturally.
I truly believe that if we show the same weakness British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlin showed in 1939, like the weakness Clinton showed after the USS Cole bombing in 1998, that we invite these fascists to come after us. I for one, would prefer to fight and kill them over there rather than have the homeland attacked again. This is a world wide war. I can only imagine if we had CNN and other news outlets during the start of the second world war that there would have been cries to impeach Roosevelt because he was leading us into a costly war and was lying to people about all the death and carnage. Our war effort would have been seriously hampered.
Americans are spoiled and seem to think that things will go on business as usual if we leave the region. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you listen to the fatwa’s and teachings espoused by these radical groups it becomes very clear that they will not stop until they succeed or die trying.
I’m all for letting them take over the country and get their hands on a nuke. That way we’ll be able to justify pulling a “hiroshima” on them and not thinking twice about it! That’s the only way this whole thing is ever going to end, is if we completely wipe them out. NOT by us policing the world and trying to tell them how to live their lives!
And another thing Mike…..I don’t see YOU over their fighting them on their land. So who are you to decide where and when this thing ends? Obviously you didn’t read Joes posting either. The president had made promise after promise that he has yet to follow through on. What about all that?
JimmyJam doesn’t have too bad an idea there in paragraph 1.
I think our military is best used as an attack force, not an occupation force.
Let’s go after the terrorists, not sit like a magnet for them.
It is our presence in the Middle East that launched Bin Laden into his holy war on Western countries, like our own, who operate from bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Turkey, etc…no matter that we were in Saudi Arabia at the behest of Saudi royalty–fearing that Saddam Hussein would take over their oil rich nation as easily as he did in Kuwait. We are dealing with religious fanatics who see us as satanic infidels and an occupation force on their sacred soil. I have to agree with Congressman Ron Paul’s assessment that 9/11 and other acts of war such as attacks against our embassies in Africa or the attack on the USS Cole may not have happened had it not been for our military presence in that part of the world…there to insure our unfettered access to their oil riches and the strategic importance they are to us.
We went to war with England many years ago when they were an occupation force on our soil. Why should we view the situation in the Middle East differently? We are there because we need their oil…England was here because they needed our raw materials.
I would have no problem with gas rationing in this country, similar to what was done during WWII. Ration gas for all but essential, vital commerce and emergency and military use. Maybe we could consider more military training on simulators as the armed forces (Air Force in particular) uses vast quantities of the petroleum consumed in this country. This may prove to be the shot in the arm necessary for us to develope alternate fuels/energy sources to free us from our oil addiction and our need to go to war over it.
Maybe, just maybe, this could be the incentive needed to get us out of our Hummers and similar land yachts and into fuel efficient hybrids or similar gas stingy conveyances. Wow, the noblest act of patriotism might be driving a hybrid, or better yet an all electric vehicle! We were using electric vehicles in our urban centers 100 years ago until GM conspired with Standard Oil, Firestone and Mack Truck to take over these efficient modes of urban transit and replace them with their diesel/gas buses.
We import more than 63% of our oil with much of that coming from unfriendly countries that are enriching their treasuries and wishing us all sorts of evil.
I agree with Joe…use our military to attack, not to occupy.
We have lost too many good men and women in Iraq…it’s time to get the hell out. Their oil has become too expensive. The Australian defense minister at least admitted that Aussie troops were in Iraq to secure access to the region’s oil, maybe it’s time for us to admit the same thing.
It amazes me that so many still have their heads in the sand and trust anything the Bush administration tells us about Iraq. And it amazes me how many still believe some of things I’ll talk about.
There are no WMD’s. I have no doubt Saddam wanted them and like a good poker player he ran a good bluff but he never was close to having them. But the Bush administration chose to ignore all evidence pointing to the truth and instead used unsubstantiated evidence to make a case. And he used 9/11 to brand anyone who disagreed as traitors so many gutless politicians fell in lockstep with him. Finally some of those politicians have gotten some spine back and admitted they made a mistake in supporting the war initially.
Saddam wasn’t supporting Al Queada. Bush apologists say they were in the country. Well they were in ours too and we don’t support them. Al Queada wanted an alliance with Saddam and did approach him and Saddam told them to get lost. Admittedly there is no doubt Saddam financed other terrorists like ones who attack Israel but he didn’t support Al Quaeda.
Iraq wasn’t involved in 9/11. I saw a poll a year or two ago where it found that majority of Americans thought Iraq was involved in 9/11 and most of the hijackers were Iraqi’s when in reality none of the hijackers were Iraqi and there is no credible evidence Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.
The only thing, and I mean the ONLY THING, the war supporters were right about is that Saddam was a bad bad man. Yes he was a tyrranical dictator who killed many of his own people. So if you want to use this as a justification for invading Iraq then why don’t you support invasions of Sudan and Rwanda where the genocide is much much worse? Iraq was Disneyland compared to those places.
Do Rwanda and the Sudan have oil or anything of value? Sorry…not worth our time.
Exactly.
This war was never about WMD’s or terrorism. It was about oil and it was about wagging the dog.
The first part of that equation is obvious. Oil = money.
The second part is less obvious but completely apparent if you look at the timeline. After 9/11 Bush was riding a crest of goodwill and anything he did wrong was ignored. But then the economy continued to crumble. And we continued to fail in catching Bin Laden and overthrowing the Taliban wasn’t enough. Everything was going south for Bush in a hurry and the 2004 elections were coming up. What he needed was an enemy to attack preferably one with a name brand villian. What percentage of Americans can name the bad guy in Bosnia (Slovdan Milosevic – I may have spelled something wrong)? What percentage can name the bad guys in Sudan or Rwanda? Even less I imagine – heck even I can’t. But everyone knows who Saddam is and a win over a name brand villian is better publicity wise than a win over a mostly unknown villian any day.
Thus began the quest to come up with reasons to attack. Because if we are at war no one will think about how much the economy was sucking back in 2002 and early 2003. And people might forget that Bin Laden was still running around giving us the middle finger. All we needed were reasons and the neocons gambled that it would be a quick and easy victory / occupation. Well the victory part was easy but the occupation wasn’t. And now the web of lies that the neocons cast as justifications for war has crumbled to dust. And thankfully much of America is now holding the neocons to task for their deceit and unneccessary war.
Yes there are terrorists out there who want to kill us. Yes we need to stop them. Unfortunately invading and occupying Iraq isn’t doing anything about either problem except emboldening the terrorists and helping their recruiting.
i seriously think that president bush should not be sending more and more troops to war. i mean pretty much hes killing the solgers more than iraq’s people are . cuz hes the one sending the troops i mean come one people ….GET A CLUE …… think for a moment why r we even having this war for ????….. im telling you right now that its messed up the the president is sending all these troops away from their families to fight and most of them get killed .well im only 12 years old and i probably know and think more about this than most of you adults do .well im just trying to make my point about this and if you dont agree with me thats ok i mean you canthink the way u want to think but i have a great point of view …. and i think u should agre with me . thank you very much for taking time and reading this ….. thanx !!!!!!
Someone wrote a LTE in today’s Post Register supporting the kids who vandalized our local stop signs to make them read “STOP WAR”, and the writer actually encouraged more people to do the same.
I hope nobody takes that writer’s advice seriously. I’m not happy about the war either, but defacing stop signs around Idaho Falls is not going to do a thing towards stopping the war.
If you want to do SOMETHING to rally protest then organize anti-war demonstrations at the Idaho Falls offices for our senators and congressman. Organize a march down Broadway or 17th street on a Saturday afternoon or during an evening rush hour.
Do something that effectively communicates your disagreement with the three people in our state who have any leverage in the war decisions: Craig, Crapo, and Simpson.
Please do not deface our local public property. That is like protesting America’s oil dependence by burning a local car lot. All you are doing is costing local dollars. If you are going to protest, then make it effective and direct it to the source.
Seriously. What responsible adult encourages children to break the law?
A few dozen locals were out in the freezing temperatures yesterday evening to protest the continuing Iraq War.
http://www.kidk.com/news/12995637.html
Many months have passed since this article first published, do you think the surge worked, do you think we are winning or losing the war, do you think we should end it or what objectives do you think we can realistically still meet?
It is interesting to note that the media and the Democrats aren’t saying much about Iraq anymore. It would seem that this lack of reporting and bloviating about Iraq answers the question whether things are working better in Iraq. It is important for the US to continue to use this time as an opportunity to build on the counter-insurgency gains made by Petraeus.