Idaho Falls Republican Jack Barraclough, Chairman of the House Education Committee, was quoted in today’s Post Register as complaining,
“What does the Legislature need to do to prove to education that we’re going to provide funding? It’s frustrating to be told that week after week, year after year, that they don’t trust us.”
Mary Haley asks on the next page in Talkback,
“When will the governor and the Legislature realize that Idahoans do not find being 45th in the nation for supporting schools acceptable?”
Popularity: 5%
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Gato got runned over by Marcus many moons ago. Be ye daft, 2486? 
Let's have a new poll, alright, Joe?
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{ 12 comments… read them below or add one }
Something the people here who are concerned about education can do is vote for Shively in the legislature race.
Mary Haley says 45th in spending is not good enough. Did Mary Haley say which relative spending position would be acceptable?
Did Mary Haley say how much dollar difference there is between #44 and #45? Or the dollar difference between #45 and #46? Or the dollar difference between #1 and #45?
Did Mary Haley say how much money is being spent per student? Per classroom?
Did Mary Haley say how much per student is enough? How much per classroom is enough?
If you answered “no” to all the above questions, you scored an A!
All Mary Haley did was b, oops, sorry, complain.
She offered no information that would lead anyone to believe that her opinion is based on fact.
http://www.morganquitno.com/ed5samp1.pdf
Idaho ranked 44th in 2005 for per pupil elementary and secondary spending.
$8,554 was the national average, Idaho spent $6,743.
I think it is very unfair to say that Mary hasn’t offered anything more than complaints. We haven’t heard what she has said apart from the article. We don’t know if the article didn’t include other relevent information that would dispute a claim that she is only criticizing.
8B, you only offered criticism of Mary, you didn’t answer of the questions you posed.
JAC, of course I didn’t offer the answers. Why? Because I don’t have the answers. But then I’m not complaining about Idaho’s relative ranking position. And I’m not complaining that not enough is being spent on education. But if I were to complain about such things, I’d be offering how much I thought should be spent.
But Mary spent her whole 353 words without offering any data except to state that Idaho ranked 45th in education spending. Well, guess what! If every state, including Idaho, all of a sudden became very flush and every state, including Idaho, increase its educational spending by $30,000 per student, Idaho would still rank 45th! And as Idaho being 45th is what makes Mary morose, Mary still would not be happy.
If Mary has ideas, Mary certainly could have used a few of her 353 words to express them.
But let’s for a moment take a look at some of Idaho’s fairly recent numbers. Joe furnished the number of $6743 per student. I’ll use that.
A Google search revealed that in 2000 the average Idaho class size was 22 – not too recent, but I’ll use it for now. Google also revealed that in 2004 the average Idaho teacher’s salary was $40,111. I’ll add to that salary about 30% for benefits. That makes the cost of a classroom teacher right around $52,150.
So, if there are 22 students @ $6,743/student, that gives us an average classroom budget of $148,346. Take out the teacher’s salary & benefits and that leaves an average of $96,196 per classroom per year for other stuff. On the surface, this, to me, seems excessive. Maybe it isn’t. But before you or I or anyone else can possibly know if this is excessive or not, we need to have an accounting of where this money goes. How much goes to text books? How much goes to teacher training? How much goes to transportation? How much goes to English-as-a second-language programs? Etc. etc. etc.
I find it disingenuous to shout “not enough” without also shouting “we need $xxxx per student in order to be spending enough.”
8B
That was some fancy number crunching. There are alot of things that you left out of that “classroom” budget. There are Admin costs, upkeep costs, resource costs, ISAT testing costs, No Child left Behind Costs. Some of these costs are mandated by law, but not fully funded under those same laws.
When all the costs are added to your fancy figuring, I don’t think that is excessive at all. I think that it is sub standard at best.
This week was a big blow to education in Idaho. The republicans won, and paid off their special interests. 60% of this tax shift will be presented to tax entities other then owner occupied homes. It is Christmas for the wealthy. The Gov. of California gets $15,000 dollars, while you and I get a tax raise in sales tax.
What I really find funny is that tax shift was presented as a way to protect education. Thing is those in the trenches of education were very much opposed to this bill. They all say it is going to hurt them. There is nothing in the new law that ensures that education will receive the total amount of money the 3 mils gave to education. The republicans admit that the sale tax increase will leave a 50 million dollar gap between was property taxes and sales taxes. Where does that 50 million dollars come from?
But 8B you may be on to something about the excesses. How about this, we take the 144 school districts, combing them as one, have the new Superintendent of schools take over all control for the whole state, run education like a business and then take that $146,346 that you figure is the average classroom budget and cut in half.
That would solve 8B’s excess question. The state would only have one person in the state to blame, or praise for the education of our children. I think that is what the republicans want to do any way. Take total control of the Education, what a womens choice is influenced by, and to ensure that businesses needs are paramount to the peoples. I thought that they were against big government and raising taxes, guess I was wrong.
V4C,
Firstly, I admitted that I don’t have the answers. And, after reading what you wrote, I’m not a darn bit better educated in the subject. And that is the problem. Who has the answers? I would hope the local school board does, but they seem to be reluctant to share that information with the bill payers.
And you’re right that I didn’t include all the classroom expenses, unless you count where I worte “…that leaves an average of $96,196 per classroom per year for other stuff.” So, no, I didn’t mention paper clips, and pink erasers. But then neither did you. Go figger!
And you may very well be correct that $148,346 per classroom is skimpy. But until I have an accounting of where that money is going, I’m not blindly following the “more money for education” bunch, because, clearly, that is the blind leading the blind.
Your second paragrah, however, is the one that intrigues as, yet again, it is the “not enough” statement, reworded, with absolutely no indication of what you would consider enough. So what is the magic dollar amount per student that would get the “not enoughers” to start crying, “Enough!! Enough!! Stop sending money already!” That’s the number I want to know — that and what will be bought with it. You might think it outrageous that a citizen should ask such a question. I don’t. In fact, I think it is outrageous that every tax paying citizen does not demand an answer to that question.
8B
I think that I understand your outrage. You don’t know things, and you feel that you can’t get a straight answer. I can understand that outrage. I ask you this, have you ever attended a school board meeting? Have you taken anytime to contact those officials, elected or otherwise with your concerns and questions?
If the answer is no to those questions I may have a solution. I will try and arrange a forum with educators, school board members; whoever it is that you think could best answer your questions. I would wager that there are others that use this site that may have the same outrage and questions that you do. I will do all the leg work; you just have to commit to attending and asking your questions.
So how does that sound? Are there others in our community that would like to have a forum where the outrage can be addressed and questions answered? 8B you are the catalyst for this idea so if it is just you and me and some experts the effort will be worth it, but if there are others that think this is a good idea as well let me go to work for you. Let’s gets some answers for those that feel the same way as you 8B.
What do you say; can I try and make this happen for us? Post a reply here and I will get started.
Yup, V4C, I’ve attended meetings. I’ve made phone calls. I’ve sat across the desk from my elected representatives in one-to-one conversations.
I’ve asked the “how much is enough?” question of administrators, school board members, elected state officials, advocates, & even teachers.
I’ve visited public school classrooms to observe — just to see if I am overlooking some large expenditures. I’ve walked the halls, ate in the cafeterias, chaperoned extracurricular activities.
But the question I’m asking is a very simple one — How much is enough? One phone call to a local school board member should be adequate to get the answer to this question.
To my thinking, the “How much is enough?” question is important whether one considers $6,743/student too little or whether one considers $6,743/student too much. Bottom line is if one doesn’t know how much is enough, one can not argue his or her position with authority.
I appreciate your offer to do the leg work, but, as you can read from above, these are efforts in which I am already engaged.
Hopefully this conversation will encourage more folks to ask the question rather than simply accept Mary Haley’s specious argument that Idaho needs to spend more money simply because Idaho ranks 45th in the nation as far as educational budgets go.
8B, your question “How much is enough” is subjective to the point you know it cannot be answered to a dollar amount.
Our educational goals will guide how much we should spend.
If you read the Parade insert in yesterday’s Post Register, you saw many descriptions of educational improvement initiatives, all of which cost incredible amounts of money that our system is not getting now.
Pick and choose any or all, add up the associated costs, and you may have an answer you’re seeking.
Which programs are needed and which are not? All would be nice, but what’s the point? It’s like building a new home and dreaming about all the luxuries you can add to the design. The plan needs goals before indiscriminant funding.
So what are our educational goals? Others will have specific answers, but I will venture the response ‘more than the pitiful farce we currently call education’.
The point is to improve education. How much do you want to improve it? Determine how much you want to improve education first, then you can start determining how much is enough.
Your ’simple question’ puts the cart before the horse.
There are many issues that have not been addressed…
(1) Idaho ranks 45th in spending per student. Does that dollar amount take into account differences in cost-of-living factors, salary differences, etc.? I doubt that it does.
(2) Lowering the property taxes and raising sales tax will actually save me money each year (based on the online calculator provided in the Post Register).
(3) The money has already been budgeted for education. They aren’t going to go back, even if they are now $50M short.
I contend that Idaho already has set educational goals, or at least some folks think that Idaho has educational goals. If there are no goals, then what the heck is the $6,743/student based on? If there are no goals, what the heck are folks sending their kids to school for? Baby-sitting services?
Mary Haley stated that education had been underfunded for “almost a decade.” How does she know if she can’t tell us how much it would cost to fully fund education today?
Another even more intriguing question: As Haley says that education has been underfunded for “almost a decade,” she is of the opinion that education was fully funded a decade ago. So if folks were smart enough to figure out how much money it took to fully fund education a decade ago, why aren’t folks smart enough to figure it out now?
If one was to call that same local school board member and ask, “What are your educational goals for this school year?” and he or she could not answer that question, then the Idaho educational system has problems that no amount of money will remedy.
But I’ve run out of ways of saying it; if you think that “more” is a logical and approriate answer to how much should be spent of education, then fine — you will never hear a disappointing answer, and you’ll never see satisfying results.