Religion Discussion
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Part of the reason I created IdahoFallz.com was because I tired of the back-and-forth spewing from the Brad Stowell/Boy Scout controversy played out in the Post Register. I wanted to provide a place for people who felt the burning passion to debate the subject to continue their debates, while the rest of us could move on.
I am writing this post specifically to channel a similarly-heated subject, religion. Lately the IdahoFallz.com chatbox has boiled with religious vs. anti-religious sentiments. Most of our readers would rather discuss other subjects, so I am creating this post to facilitate people who want to debate religion issues to do so.
If you feel the need, make your comments about religion in response to this post. Those who are not interested in the argument simply do not have to click to read the comments and thus may be spared the argument.
So without further ado, feel free to direct your comments on this local, age-old controversy in response to this post if you feel the need. May this post serve as a lighting rod to save the rest of us
For the record, I am not Mormon. I grew up in Idaho Falls, and so made friends and enemies with Mormons, dated Mormons, and finally married the most beautiful Mormon girl in Idaho Falls. Her family are Mormons, some go to church regularly and some don’t, and I have never found them to be pushy. I was offerred once that I was always welcome to attend church with them, and that was the last I heard in seven years. I don’t think that is pushy at all.
I have come across some pushy Mormons, but I find they are the exception rather than the rule. Every group has fringe members that unfortunately define the group’s stereotype.
Here’s some perennial religion subjects to get you started:
- Religious business owners only hiring those in their religion
- People only marrying those in their religion
- Temple practices
- Perceived religious snob behavior
- Salamander Papers/Mormon Murders controversy
- History of churches
Disclaimer: Posts are written by individuals expressing their own viewpoints and do not necessarily reflect the perspective of other IdahoFallz.com writers or administrators. Please communicate your agreement or disagreement directly with relevant authors via the comment box, or even register as a writer and post alternative stories.
UPDATE: THIS TOPIC CLOSED TO COMMENTS. LET’S CHANGE THE SUBJECT FOR AWHILE.
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Comments
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0 
0 As for why I don’t like any religion in general its for several reasons:
I think religion does have some positive aspects such as teaching moral behavior but this can be taught without it as well.
Look at most wars in history. A large portion were fought over religion. The ones not fought primarily over religion had religious components driving it.
Religion breed hatred and intolerance. Slavery was justified because blacks were the spawn of Cain and thus lesser people. Indians were slaughtered and put on reservations because it was “white mans burden” to bring christianity to the savages. Thats an actual historical ideology from the 1800’s.
Christian religion says you should be tolerant yet its religion that breeds intolerance. Anyone not fitting someones definition of the ideal christian is considered bad and thus is treated poorly.
Christian religion was used to subjugate women for a long time and still is in many religions like mormonism. Women are supposed to stay in the home and obey their men.
The current hot button issue is gays. First off I’m not gay so don’t take my passion on this to mean something. I tend to piss off both gays and christians with my views even though I clearly am on the gay side. I think normal people are born heterosexual. I think some are born with what is effectively a birth defect which makes them gay. They have no choice. What people do have a choice in is experimentation which many do but that doesn’t change anyone primary attraction. I piss off the gays for calling it a birth defect but to me its no different than if someone is born without an arm.
With gays I believe 100% they should be allowed to marry. Either the government should get out of the marriage business or they should allow any two consenting adults to marry. Civil unions are the same as seperate but equal drinking fountains, schools, and such from the 1950’s. No church should be forced to marry a gay couple as a church is private institution but there are plenty of churches that would marry them so the gays should just go to those.
I also believe gays should be allowed to adopt.
I’ve gotten sidetracked a bit from the original premise but I was just trying to illustrate why I come at odds with religion on gays.
I also hate how religion tries to control my behavior in my own home. Its usually religious people trying to tell me what I can watch and when I can watch it in my house. Changing the channel in their own homes isn’t good enough, they want to change it in mine as well.
As to me, I was raised as a baptist. I stopped going to church around 12 or so but still believed although I always had doubts. By the time I reached college I realized that every single religion in the world is just a fairy tale. There could be a higher power but I know that no one knows what it is and that all the fairy tale religions are just guesses. For all we know the higher power is little green men and we are their ant farm. I actually find that much more plausible than God, or Buhhda, or Mohammed, or Zeus, or Odin, or any other made up character.
I do believe Jesus was real though. I think he was a charismatic leader of a fledgling cult who was killed by people opposed to his cult. After his death his followers martyred him and the cult grew. Eventually he was deified by his followers. It would only be about the millionth time that history has greatly skewed the truth about what really happened and created myths. George Washington never cut down a cherry tree, Robin Hood didn’t steal from the rich to give to the poor, and Jesus didn’t perform miracles.
And before someone brands me as a kooky liberal let me correct you because I’m actually a libertarian. I don’t believe in gun control. I’m against affirmative action. I think the drug war does more harm than good so we should legalize drugs and spend our money fighting the addiction. I obviously support gays. I think George Bush is the worst president in history of those I’m familiar with. I think Bill Clinton is the 3rd worst.
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0 0 A few points:
1) “Most wars are caused by religion”. This … well … lie … is widely circulated among non-religious forums such as this, and I’m yet to hear a decent argument supporting the claim. Most wars, if they must have a “reason”, are caused either by nationalism or greed. Go back a few hundred years, and you’ll find almost every outbreak of war comes down to these two stems - WWI was caused by alliances that led unwilling nations into war along with ethnic tensions betweent he falling Ottoman Empire, Germany, the West, not to mention the disasterous Crimeon War. I can grant that the Crusades were a relgious-centered war, but again, greed was the main motivator behind that campaign. The modern war structure, ie the war of terrorism, is about Zionism, the support of an Isreali state, and is being waged by radical Muslims who believe the Holy Land is their right, which is more about tradition and rights of inheretance than religion. Of course, the perpetrators give it a religious justification for recruitment purposes.
2) Boy Scouts is NOT an invention of the Mormon Church. It is a Christian organization that is open to people of any faith (or lack thereof). In Idaho and Utah, the Mormon church operates the scouting program because the majority of young, active “Christians” (see my initial post) are Mormon in this area. I will grant that the Mormons have very much hijacked and instigated a monopoly of scouting in our area, which I disagree with. However, after seeing some of the things I saw and some news of late, I know that my children will not participate in scouting.
3) “White Man’s Burden” was one of arguably 7 reasons for imperial expansion in the 1800’s. It was an excuse for the expansion of culture during this time. It was a myth.
4) You cannot believe in Christ, nor accept Him as a good person, without accepting the account of his life from the Bible (the best, tested, and most reliable account of His life). If you reject His diety, you also must reject him as a good person, the same reason Charles Manson is not a good person. Christ said that He was God, so if you reject that, you reject everything else He stood for.
The reality of Christ, to me, lies in the perfect symetry of the Old Testament to the New Testament (Christ was prophecized by Moses and other prophets), and in my experiences in life. I spent a long time of my life as an Agnostic, and now that I have accepted Christianity, my life is a whole new thing, and I’m grateful for that.
Think what you will about religion, but make sure you know why you feel that way.
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0 0 To keep this a free flowing open dialogue, please provide source documents for all of your statements. It’s easy to spout off any thing you desire without backing it up with solid evidence. Maybe everything you say is true. I don’t know and I’m unwilling to believe any of it until you provide a solid source for your statements.
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0 0 That’s a good idea, so this can turn into high school debate and we can sling sources back and forth.
Anyway, most of my “sources” are going to be my seminary education, personal experience, and books I’ve read. So consider those my citations.
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0 0 In reading Jeremy’s accounts of what he was taught, I have to honestly say I’ve never heard 80-90% of what he wrote. I’m not saying anything about Jeremy’s statement, as I wasn’t in the classrooms or discussions with him. I’m simply saying had I been presented with the information he has shared here, I would have multiple questions about Mormons, similar to his own.
I was taught very different pricinples about most of what Jeremy has written regarding, Mormons across the board. This is the first time I’ve read that “The Mormons believe that God came to Earth and had sex with Mary.” I have never read any of the gospels that way.
It’s certainly easier for me to understand others when I learn more about what they have or have not been taught about Mormons, Muslims, Jews and others.
I don’t believe every person who is Mormon has learned to put Christ as the center of his/her life yet. However, I do believe that is the goal. For that reason, I believe Mormons are practicing Christians.
That’s enough for now. Lots to think about. Except to say to Chiasm, I’m sorry for how you were treated. It doesn’t matter if it was a group of Mormons, or the breakfast coffe club, or the bowling league, I am sorry you had to endure what you did in your youth. And putting religion aside for a moment, your posts encouraged me to ask myself as a teenager, did I ever treat someone poorly because he/she was different than me? Now that is a hard question, having had the experience of growing up and realizing how cruel kids can be about the nieghborhoods others live in, what their parents occupation is and other factors far beyond the control of the child/teenager.
Chiasm, I don’t know where you grew up, and I don’t need to know. While I don’t think I made any choices based on religion, if in any way I seemingly passed judgement on you, your mother or your family (and this is a statement at large, not just for Chiasm), I ask you to forgive me. My own teenage years were full of problems, that most adults, let alone few teenagers ever face. In college, I was shunned, given a totally different situation in my life than religion. I do know what it feels to be “locked out” because I was different.
I hope if I knew you in high school and maybe I didn’t say hi or ask you to sit at my lunch table, I hope you can now realize, that maybe I was struggling with other issues at the same time, so overwhelming to me, that I didn’t take the time for others.
So the best I can do at this point is ask your forgiveness, per chance you and I have ever met. Even if we haven’t, I’d ask you to put yourself in the shoes of others for a moment, as maybe their entire day wasn’t centered around being a Mormon. Maybe they had other problems to deal with and became more rigid in their beliefs, as a way to cope.
Anyway, what matters to me, is that you came through the experiences and you seem to be a solid citizen who wants to give more than you take. It’s always a pleasure to read your posts.
Whew- what a subject for this board!
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0 0 Re: The Virgin Birth
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).
Brigham Young also said, “Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51).
Brigham Young said, “When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, page 218, 1857.)
“In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my saviour Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 211)
Mormons believe that God acts according to natural laws, just as we do - in fact, Mormons believe that God was once human, or something like it, and became God because of his devotion to the Mormon religion on another world. Kind of minimalizes the Alpha and Omega if you ask me.
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0 0 OK Jeremy, you correctly cited your view of the Mormon Virgin Birth theory. It was the way you first put it that I’m sure caused a little angst.
No, I’m not looking for a HS debate society but rather an intelligent discussion based on fact. NOT supposition, rumors innuendo etc. so please cite your sources when you allege a certain doctrinal point of view and not just your opinion of the meaning of a certain doctrine.
“The Mormons believe that when we die, we are placed in purgatory until the second coming of Christ at Hill Comorra, when we will be judged according to our acts (an obvious misreading of Revelations) and placed in one of the kingdoms according to where we ended up on the Mormon “ladder†of salvation.â€
I’d be interested in where you obtained this bit of information. I doubt is was one of your seminary classes.
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0 0 I was taught both about Hill Comorra, the judgement, and the ladder system in seminary. I would love to do some research and provide sources, but it may take a while. I don’t have that kind of thing readily at hand these days.
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0 0 Okay, I found a few refences from the LDS website:
Re: Judgement According to Works
The Prophet Joseph Smith said that the dead will be judged out of records kept on earth. We will also be judged out of the “book of life,” which is kept in heaven (see D&C 128:6-8).
“We are going to be judged out of the things written in books, out of the revelations of God, out of the temple records, out of those things which the Lord has commanded us to keep. . . . There will be the record in heaven which is a perfect record” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:200).
There is another record that will be used to judge us. The Apostle Paul taught that we ourselves are the most complete record of our life (see Romans 2:15; 2 Corinthians 3:1-3). Stored in our body and mind is a complete history of everything we have done. President John Taylor taught this truth: “[The individual] tells the story himself, and bears witness against himself. . . . That record that is written by the man himself in the tablets of his own mind–that record that cannot lie–will in that day be unfolded before God and angels, and those who sit as judges” (Daniel H. Ludlow, ed., Latter-day Prophets Speak, pp. 56-57).
Re: The “ladder” system and the 3 kingdoms (and outer darkness)
At the Final Judgment we will be assigned to the kingdom for which we are prepared. We will be sent to one of four places: the celestial kingdom (the highest degree of glory), the terrestrial kingdom (the second degree), the telestial kingdom (the lowest degree), or outer darkness (the kingdom of the devil–not a degree of glory).
In Doctrine and Covenants 76, the Lord described the ways we can choose to live our mortal lives. He explained that our choices will determine which of the four kingdoms we are prepared for. We learn from this revelation that even members of the Church will inherit different kingdoms because they will not be equally faithful and valiant in their obedience to Christ.
The following are the kinds of lives we can choose to live and the kingdoms our choices will obtain for us.
Celestial
“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, . . . that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51-53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1-4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).
Terrestrial
These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73-79.) They will not be part of eternal families; they will live separately and singly forever (see D&C 131:1-4).
Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81-86, 103-6.)
Outer Darkness
These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28-35, 44-48.)
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0 0 I understand the portions regarding various degrees of salvation and the rewards etc. But how do you get the part about being placed in, “purgatory until the second coming of Christ at Hill Comorra” That’s a new one to me. I would appreciate some sort of source material, if you have it, that is.
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0 0 From Journal of Discourses, J. F. Smith:
“they will first go to hell and remain there until the corruption with which they are impregnated is burnt out; and the day will yet come when they will come to me and acknowledge me as their Savior, and I will redeem them and bring them forth from hell” (Journal of Discourses, vol.3, p.109).
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0 0 “they will first go to hell and remain there until the corruption with which they are impregnated is burnt out; and the day will yet come when they will come to me and acknowledge me as their Savior, and I will redeem them and bring them forth from hell†(Journal of Discourses, vol.3, p.109).
1. What is the context of the passage? Who is he refering to as the,”they.” This passage does NOT substantiate your theory, sorry. You’ll have to do a bit better than that. Additionally, where is your part regarding Hill Cummora? It is actually spelled Cummorah?
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0 0 What is the Journal of Discourses? Was it something Joseph Smith (the first one, not Joseph Fielding) wrote that is considered scripture by the mormons or is it something that he wrote as a mortal man?
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0 0 My initial post read “when we die”, and perhaps that is too much of a blanket statement - it might have read, “when everyone die”, which isn’t what I meant. By “we” I meant anyone who isn’t immediately “exalted”, meaning myself and most of the people I know. I apologize if my language was misleading.
Joseph F. Smith wrote the journal of discourses. He was a prophet and president in the church, and since the Mormons believe that the prophets speak directly with God, as they believe Joseph Smith did then and every prophet after, all writings or speeches by these people are considered gospel (ie the Truth).
Regarding Commorah, however it is spelled, that was a seminary reference which will take some digging to back up with sources … and I am getting tired of defending every last detail of my argument, so I probably won’t try very hard.
Look, people, we’re arguing semantics and details. If you’re trying to make a point, make it already. Let’s argue ideas if we have to argue anything.
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0 0 Why can’t we all just agree to disagree when it comes to religion. We will never all agree on anything when it comes to this subject.
I wish we could all just respect other people’s beliefs, no matter what they are, and just live our own lives the best we can without feeling like we need to attack other religions for whatever reasons. How does that make us better people by criticizing others and what they believe in?
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0 0 Anyway, back to the discussion at hand.
Things I like about the Mormon Religion:
- The emphasis on family and modesty … although the latter tends to go too far from time to time. There is a lack of family-centrism these days.
- Service. Despite my ill feelings about how Mormon money is spent, a lot of the fruits of Mormonism are charity and service, which is always needed and welcome in society.
- Hope. Mormons believe that all people are “saved”, which is a nice thought. Totally un-biblical, but nice.
Things I don’t like:
- Like Evangelicals, Mormons are too involved in the affairs of others, particularly in the public life. Politicians are bad enough, but Mormon politicians cross the line on a regular basis. Just look at Utah liquor laws … they’re asinine!
- Bishops and other leaders are not educated or paid, so in a big way, Mormon churches are the blind leading the bling. I attend a Presbyterian church in town, and the pastor is a well-educated man who is a fantastic orator and teacher. That’s what I want when I get to church, NOT some crap from a manual.
- Speaking of bishops, these leaders are too involved in the members’ lives. My mother-in-law was almost unable to go to school because her bishop didn’t think she was a good enough Mormon. Bishops have been known to council against taking action against child abuse, sexual abuse, infidelity, etc., which is just wrong. These men are , in my experience, poor leaders given too much authority.
- Again, Mormons are not Christians, in my view. They should not abuse the term. My question is, if you can call them Christian, can you call me Mormon?
- The snobbery is almost unbearable from time to time, but that’s the same with many Christians. However, if I have to endure my boss talking about the “saints” being this and that and “brother” whomever being this and that, I am going to scream. Growing up, my wife was allowed to play with non-Mormon children, and her parents were the subject of ridicule and were alienated because of it.
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0 0 I saw the greatest bumper sticker the other day.
If going to church makes me a Christian, does going to the garage make me a car?
I think the definition of being a Christian is simpy a person’s belief that Christ is his/her personal Savior. The devil’s in the details, as they say. And I believe that literally. I believe the devil drives us apart from one another by making the “details” seem more important than they are. If a person believes Christ is their Savior, that person is a Christian. Period.
The principles of the mormon faith should not be judged by the actions of some misguided souls who act as if their denomination makes them more important than the next guy. The same is true that a person should not judge the Catholic faith simply because some misguided souls felt they should shield pedophiles from prosecution. The people and the principles are separate from one another. The first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all thy heart. The second is like unto it. To love thy neighbor as thyself. No exceptions. No qualifications. Just love your neighbor. If we’re so busy worrying about what the other guy is doing or thinking about us, we’re as guilty as they are of judging others. Pay them no mind and worry about your own behavior, actions and faith. Turn the other cheek, forgive seventy times seven, judge not lest ye be judged . . .
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0 0 Good point.
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0 0 Really, Jeremy,
You don’t know how lucky you are. You’ve been able to identify at an early age who the people are who will try and hurt you and take advantage of you in this life. All you have to do is ask their religion and you’re set. I’ve had just the opposite experience. I’ve been crapped on by Baptists, Mormons, Methodists, Jews, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Presbyterians, Wiccans, Buddhists, Atheists, Muslims, Agnostics, and folks whose religious preference I didn’t know. I’ve also been treated wonderfully by folks in those same groups. So after decades in this life, I’m still seeking the common thread that makes one person feel they have the right to crap in my cheerios. For me, it wasn’t their religion.
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0 0 Jeremy — I gotta hand it to you — I agree with most everything you said. LDS people are some of the nicest people I have known — but they are NOT Christians. Thiers is a church that does not truely believe the Bible — only the parts that they want — or are “translated correctly.” They place their trust in Temple rituals — special underwear and handshakes. They use secret names — babtize the dead. A Christian puts his trust in Jesus — and nothing else. By all standards, the Mormon Church is a cult. And once you get away from this part of the US — it is easier to see it as such. They are nice people for the most part. But being a nice person isn’t what gets you into heaven. No one is THAT nice. We sin. all of us. It is the blood of Jesus that saves. Not Joseph Smith. Not some fancy building full of marble. Not some special undies. Accepting Jesus — and asking him to change your heart and forgive. Its much more simple than Mormons want you to believe. But God gave us a clue in this area: The most perfect wonderful being to ever walk the earth — the KING of ALL KINGS was born in a barn. Jesus is simple. His plan is simple. Finding him is very simple. You just have to look. He isn’t in some multi billion dollar business — hanging out in some multi million dollar temple. He is in the hearts of those who will have him. anywhere
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0 0 One more thing — and the most crucial: Though Jesus and God plan are simple — a person MUST be following the right path to find him. Satan is very krafty — and is the “god” of this earth. He gets lots of people with his alcohol — cocaine — sex — greed — lust etc. etc. So how can he reach people who will not fall for those obviously evil things? He needs to come up with something that looks “holy.” Soemthing that will lead “good” people away from finding the true Jesus. If he can keep them busy in the Temple — and running around doing “good works” — believing that this is what gets you to heaven — he can fool a tremendous number of people — and keep them from truely finding God. The Bible talks about many false prophets that will come. And the Bible is clear what happens if they are followed.
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0 0 This link is full of information — and for anyone who wants FACTS about the LDS church — it is a great place to start. Go with an open mind — and research the claims here. Try to disprove them….
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0 0 Last I checked, Christian was one who believed in Christ. Well the full name of the LDS church is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Also, not to be rude, but some of the facts stated here are slightly off, I’m not going to go through and disprove all of them because I knwo it will be shot back at with another comment, and then I’d comment, and then it’d be an arguement and I really hate arguments. There is one, however, that is slightly off and I just wantted to say that we have never been taught that God had sex with Mary. She was a virgin after all. My seminary teacher says “We don’t know how it happened and its none of our business”
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0 0 So do I understand you to say that mormons don’t believe Christ is their Savior? Wow! That’s not what the ones I have met told me. They did say that “faith without works is dead.” I think that goes nicely with “guests” comments that we must be following the right path. How can you follow the right path unless you’re, say, being a Good Samaritan? Why did Christ use that parable? I always thought it was because he was trying to tell us we needed to take care of one another. I mean, can someone like Pol Pot, or Hitler, believe Christ is their Savior and get into heaven in spite of all they’ve done? Their actions don’t matter? Doesn’t that contradict the statement in the Bible that if you lust after a woman in your heart it’s just as bad as if you’d actually committed adultery? If Christ didn’t care whether we sinned, then what’s the purpose of the Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots? I see that if you take certain things from the Bible, they can contradict other things if you don’t look carefully. I think you have to have faith in the Savior and, as a result of that faith, will have a desire to do good works. And in doing good works, we end up closer to Him and around and around and around. I just can’t see how I can say I believe in Christ as my Savior and then sit on my ever-widening arse and ignore the sick and needy and my children and my neighbor and commit sins and end up in heaven on an equaly footing with someone like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for others in the name of Christ.
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0 0 Mormonism teaches that Christ enabled man to enter heaven, but it was more ceremonial than anything - on the flipside, Christ taught that no man can enter heaven without going through him. Christ is it, He is our one and only chance - not works, not baptism, not ceremonies. Mormons reject Christ’s divinity, believing, rather, that Christ was God’s literal biological son, concieved by God’s body and Mary’s, so they reject Jesus as he is presented in the Bible (he proclaimed I AM, a traditional announcement of God’s presence in Judaism and said “I and the Father are the same”).
So many religions, including but not limited to, the Mormons, believe that if we are good, then God will start to love God, then we will start to love us. It is so opposite - God already loves us, and when we love Him, we will begin to produce good things (works included). The bible tells us that the first fruits of the spirit are love.
Now, on to who will get into heaven (Hitler, etc.) I don’t know. It’s not for me to know. And how arrogant would it be for me to even attempt to make that judgement? It’s in Christ’s hands.
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0 0 IF Resident…. no one is “attacking” anything. Can’t people share their points of view on an open discussion board without someone making a comment like that. There are truths and their are lies. Most truths and lies in our lives don’t really matter when you look at the BIG picture. You better get this one right… thats why people feel passion about it — and discuss it with great energy and passion….It about where a person will be hanging out for the next 80 million years! This whole debate is not about PEOPLE. Its about doctrine. The mormon people are — for the most part very wonderful people who are trying their best to be good. It is their doctrine that is wrong. Their doctrine teaches that our God today is somply a Mormon who progressed. They believe that any male member of “the church” who rises to certain levels within the church and does certain things WILL BE GOD. Not all mormons even know that is part of their belief. So — if you believe that there is ONE GOD — eternal and ever-lasting — then you don’t believe in Mormonism. If you believe that Bishop Smith down the street will be the God of his own universe someday — then head on down to the temple and start baptizing dead folks. I believe that for we here on Earth to even entertain the THOUGHT that we could be God is so far gone that I won’t even waste time talking about it. We are suppose to be humble — worshipping at the feet of our almighty God — NOT sitting back dreaming of the day when we will be him. Yes, we were created in his image — and we are suppose to try to live as Jesus did — but the Bible is clear — there is but ONE GOD. If you do not believe that this is the belief of that “church” — go check it out. So if in fact there are many many people who are following a false prohpet — being taught a lie — and being directed AWAY from the real Jesus — how hard should we try to reach these people? How much should we make an effort to show them the truth? and how careful must we be to make it clear that it is not an “attack” on them personally — while we still make them understand the flaws in their doctrine and the lies being taught by that “church.”
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0 0 Having been brought up LDS in this community and although being inactive all my life I did read the Book of Mormon with a study group (who were trying to get me active). After reading this book, I became convinced it was not for me. It cost me a wife and the alienation of two of my children.
Today we have two types of Mormons in the world:
1. Those who believe what the prophets have preached down through the years (excluding polygamy, blood atonement, Adam/God doctrine and a few others…..apparently being free to pick and choose which doctrine to believe). These folks are the ones who sit in meetings and give tacit approval to those who lead them. 2. The internet Mormons. These folks tend to be less of a herd mentality than their true believing brothers who hide their heads in the sand when confronted by controversy. No, these folks are often paid by the church(FARMS)to critique books that cast an unfavorable light on the church. They do the dirty work of answering critics so the boys in SLC don’t get their hands dirty and don’t have to explain church doctrine to skeptics. They answer such thorny posits as the DNA evidence that refutes LDS claims that Native Americans were of Middle Eastern origin. Internet Mormons now claim that a small group of indiginous (and yet undisclosed) meso-Americans are the real Lamanites and that the Indian tribes we have been calling Lamanites all these years are’nt the real McCoys. Now these guys are telling us that the Hill Comorrah in N.Y. State where Joe Smith supposedly found the golden plates is not really the place where the angel Moroni told us that 2 million warriors and cherioteers were killed in that great, final battle. Apparently after years of looking for artifacts of that great battle the church decided to cease any more digging. Now they are telling us that Camorrah is not really in N.Y. but somewhere in Central America and yet to be discovered. Probably the hardest question these boys are struggling with is the Book of Abraham. J.Smith was able to get a completely different interpretation of that ancient scroll than later Egyptologists did. They found it to be nothing more than a common pagan funeral script. The spin doctors are noticeably silent on that one.
And apparently the old saying that, “as man is now, God once was, and as God is now man may become”, can no longer be used. It just doesn’t fit with neo-Mormonism. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that in Primary or Sunday school as a youth.
My question is this: Who sets doctrine these days for the church? Is it the first presidency and apostles or the hired mouthpieces who are paid to put a favorable spin on those topics that the church wishes would just go away? What happened to the idea of seeking truth and letting the chips fall where they may?
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0 0 “nd apparently the old saying that, “as man is now, God once was, and as God is now man may becomeâ€, can no longer be used. It just doesn’t fit with neo-Mormonism. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that in Primary or Sunday school as a youth.”
I heard this a lot growing up. I was always taught the God was once a man, obeyed the laws, and became God through being obediant. I was also taught that if we achieve the highest levels of exaltation, we become God and are given our own universe to create and govern.
Nevermind that the bible states that Jesus created the world … and that God is sovereign … and that there is one God … Hmmmmm
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0 0 Meso…. Fascinating. I had never heard some of that…. but always knew that thos events could have never taken place where Joseph Smith claimed — because if they had — some evidence would have been found to prove it. I just feel very bad for all the people who have been deceived. Many of them are very, very good people.
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0 0 Jeremy,
I find something ironic in your article you published today.
“Have you forgotten that Christ commanded us (not recommended, mind you) to love one another, and accept everyone as they are, and never to allow our pride to let us judge one another? It is not allowed us the authority to judge anyone, for anything, regardless of how we interpret this incredible book we call the bible.”
This is a quote taken directly from your article. If you truely believe this, then why do you find it OK to judge someone based on their religion?
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0 0 I don’t judge Mormons. I just don’t believe that they should call themselves Christians … because “Christian” isn’t just a word. It has a meaning. I believe that Mormon church perverts Christian ideals and truths. I never once judged anyone who is Mormon. I know and love many people who are Mormon. I just hope they find their way someday … or not, whatver makes them happy.
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0 0 In reading all your comments in this area (including some religion comments you made in other areas as well) you absolutely do judge Mormons. You have made some very judgemental comments.
In addition, the claims you make about what Mormons believe are not true.
I know for a fact, because of my age, I have attended far more Church meetings and Seminary classes than you ever have. I never once was told or taught any of the things you claim to have been told in your classes. The claims you make are the exact opposite of what Mormon’s really believe.
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0 0 Okay, here’s a challenge. Refute me. Show me where I’ve judged Mormons … as people. Look, just because you don’t like what I said doesn’t mean I was being judgemental. I’m arguing ideas, not judging people. I never once stated that Mormons are stupid or bad people. I argued the belief structure, the concepts, and the practices.
I have provided direct quotes from Mormon prophets and general authorities to back my claims. Prove me wrong. Back up your argument.
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0 0 Note this is my first and likely only comment in this series.
I don’t know if Jeremy’s challenge to “Show me where I’ve judged Mormons … as people” will be met, but I wanted to call everyone’s attention to his quote:
“I’m arguing ideas, not judging people.”
That is THE IDEAL for this discussion topic especially, but for all of this site’s discussions. I would just die if this site ends up dividing our community rather than bridging misunderstandings. We don’t have to agree, but I hope everyone can respect the mature opinions of others, and sometimes be willing to admit it if we change our minds.
And go forth and whatnot. Let me get out of this thread, it’s hot in here.
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0 0 Hey, I’m still waiting for an answer. Who sets policy and doctrine for you Mormons? Is it FARMS or the first presidency? Are the DNA discoveries and the lack of archaeological evidence really that difficult for the church to explain without hiring spin doctors? I want to hear it from the pulpit not from paid (FARMS) pundits.
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0 0 Maybe you should chill out a bit, Mesomorph. When we start saying things like “you Mormons” things might start to get out of hand.
In my view, Mormon doctrine is set by the Book of Mormon and by the writings and recorded dialogue from the Mormon prophets.
While I know the point you’re trying to make, I think DNA evidence is the least of the arguments regarding the Mormon faith. Why not discuss ideas rather than have pissing contests about science and archeology?
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0 0 Jeremy,
So, what are you saying…science, i.e., archaeology, DNA & etc. cannot be used to refute the historicity they claim in their books?
Still looking for answers - preferably from someone who’s been around a little longer. Jeremy seems to still be a little wet behind the ears.
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0 0 What I’m saying is that a debate about religion should be more about ideas and beliefs. Science has its place, but in these types of situations, it is counterproductive to throw around citations.
Also, if you want to debate me, let’s make it about something other than age, okay?
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0 0 [...] So I’m shutting down the Religion Discussion article from further comments. Because this is obviously a hot topic in Idaho Falls, I’m sure we will re-post it again sometime in the future after passions have cooled for awhile. [...]
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0 0 [...] Please keep religion discussions confined to this thread rather than letting it spill into other discussions. Here was the first religion discussion and the 42 responses. [...]
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
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First of all, I should mention that I grew up Mormon - I was baptized, attended 4 years of seminary, studied the Book of Mormon and the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, and when I was 18, I decided the Mormon Church was not for me, and I left just shy of attaining a mission call.
So my opinions on the Mormon church are informed and based on my own research, experience, and intimate knowlege of the church.
That being said, allow me to expound on why I believe the Mormon church is a perversion of Christianity.
One last note - I consider myself a “born again” Christian, but not by any means one of these new-fangled Evangelicals. I attend services at a Presbyterian church here in town, just so you all know my religious bias.
As far as I can tell, Christianity rests on a few basic tennants, and those are:
1) That we are saved by God’s grace. There is nothing we can do to earn it or “impress” God. All that we can do to accept grace is to reach out and gratefully accept it from Christ.
2) That Jesus Christ was the word of God, or one of the three “dimensions” of God made flesh to bridge the gap between man and God. Jesus was not “just a man” or the genetic spawn of God. Refer to the first chapter of the Gospel of John - ” 1In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn’t make. 4Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone. 5The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.” - John 1:1-5 New Living Translation.
3) That the “first fruits” of the spirit are love and service. So, if we accept Christ, performing loving acts should be a natural progression from that transition.
However, the Mormon Church has reversed all of these tennants to read:
1) That we are saved by our own acts. We are to perform rituals and services on Earth in order to gain access to one of three kingdoms, the ultimate goal being the Celestial Kingdom, where God dwells. The Mormons believe that when we die, we are placed in purgatory until the second coming of Christ at Hill Comorra, when we will be judged according to our acts (an obvious misreading of Revelations) and placed in one of the kingdoms according to where we ended up on the Mormon “ladder” of salvation. This is an obvious perversion of the idea of Grace - Christ made it very clear that there is nothing that we can do to gain God’s favor, except to accept Christ as the word and come to God through Jesus. It’s very simple, but the Mormons have turned it into a popularity contest.
2) The Mormons believe that God came to Earth and had sex with Mary, the wife of Joseph, to produce Jesus, God’s only son. This is a drastic misreading of the Gospels - “son of God” refers to God’s first “begotten”, referring to the first aspect of God that is revealed to the world - ie the “word” of God is the first “son” of God. At any rate, the Mormons believe that Christ and Satan were brothers, produced by God “Eloheme” (there are variations on the spelling) and our “heavenly mother” and were delegates in a great meeting in heaven over what should be done on Earth - whether we should be forced to live God’s law or free to choose. Satan became the devil because he went against God’s will (a bizarre variation on Revelations). At any rate, Mormons believe that Christ was married to three women - Mary, Mary Magdelene, and Martha, and produced children. Joseph Smith claimed to be a decendant of Christ. Mormonism rejects the concept of the trinity of God in exchange for a “godhead” - three individuals, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
3) Mormons believe that the first fruits of the spirit are entrance into a higher kingdom, prosperity, and revenge. They view salvation as a means to outdo their enemies, probably as a reflection of their persecution in the East. In seminary, we are taught that in heaven, there are stations where we will be able to view “videotapes” of anyone’s life we want to, and that we will be free to judge anyone, because we are better than them. This goes against the very nature of Christ, who demanded that man not judge one another, else we will be subject to God’s judgement. Christ said, “I will forgive whom I will, but it is required that you forgive everyone”.
This brings up the debate over the nature of heaven. I tend to believe in the idea that Hell will be a very sparesly-populated place, for those who openly reject God’s grace in exchange for the solitary nature of Hell. However, heaven is a very different concept. There are many who believe that heaven is not so much a place separate from Hell, but a place where your state of being makes it feel like heaven or Hell, depending on how to mold yourself while on Earth. C.S. Lewis said, “Joy is the serious business of Heaven”. If you reject the freedom offered by Christ, then you reject this joy, and therefor, the open rejoicings of heaven become “Hell” to you. For a great look at this, I recommend a book called A New Kind of Christian. Barnes and Noble carries it.
Another issue I should point out is that Joseph Smith gave wildly differing versions of the story of his encounter. I mean, night and day versions. In seminary, we were taught that this is because he was speaking to different audiences, but I don’t buy that. The truth is the truth, no matter whom you are addressing.
That, and the Book of Mormon states that American Indians are actually an ancient race of Jewish people who came across the sea. DNA has stomped that idea to pieces. This is the very basis of the religion. Now, I believe I am opening the whole of Christianity up to criticism here, so allow me to take the first defense - many people will discount Christianity based on the writings of the Old Testament, particularly Genesis, which states that the Earth was created in 6 days, the earth is 6,000 years old, etc. This does discount fundamentalism, but that doesn’t take much. Genesis was a collection of popular folk tales and myths of the Jewish people, and much of the Old Testament should be viewed as a historical account of a people, as well as a collection of a society’s world-views. I personally believe that Genesis was inspired, but not written by the hand of God (obviously) - if should be taken as prose, not a history book.
My main issue with the Mormons is that they insist that we call them Christians. In reality, they are not Christians. “Christian” is not just a word, it carries with it a very important meaning, a feeling, and a way of life. “Christian” originally meant “Christ-like” or “Christ-ish”, and for a religion that mangles God’s word, I can’t accept the term be used to describe them.
That being said, now you know where I stand on the issue. I would love to get into a dialogue with you all, so feel free to reply in any fashion you choose.