We won’t lead the world with seminary and choir
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The legislature’s plans to increase high school math and science requirements are awesome and decades past-due. Idaho is putting our kids at a disadvantage by requiring fewer math and science credits to graduate high school than is required to enter college. Credit requirements are the same between high school and college in all areas except the two that matter most: math and science. I am thankful our legislature seems to have gotten a clue this year, and this is another solution that helps rather than hurts Idaho.
Some people are crying foul, however. They worry more math and science will be too hard or turn kids off from education. These naysayers are ignoring studies that show kids think schools are under-challenging. Students have demonstrated they are receptive to meaningful challenges.
The critical factor for increased math and science credits to succeed is to follow it up with both increased funding in those areas and curriculum designed to be practical and practice-able. I hated my boring high school math classes, then fell in love with college trigonometry and calculus because of the numerous ways the math could be applied to real-world, practicable applications. (i.e. calculate the least amount of aluminum you can use to enclose a 12-ounce drink or the least amount of fencing to enclose 10 acres.) Students learn math and science concepts much better through real-world experiments, and teachers prefer teaching by experimentation rather than lecture. Our legislature needs to follow up the credit increases with funding increases that emphasize using experiments to teach concepts.
A District 25 administrator (seemingly opposed to the new requirements) was quoted as saying, “…it’s impossible for a student to take four years of seminary and choir plus the proposed credits”.
Are. You. Serious?
Seminary and choir classes are great for personal enrichment, but will do little good to helping Idaho and America in the global economic race. If this administrator is so concerned about seminary and choir, then she may as well start teaching Islamic religion and Chinese hymns. Those two cultures will soon dominate our world because they have been emphasising math and science while we traded for seminary and choir.
This concern for “seminary and choir” is an especially ironic statement given that their Mission Statement reads: Pocatello/Chubbuck School District Maximizes Student Learning. Sounds like the parents and patrons of that district should demand a better definition of what type of learning they want maximized.
I am a big supporter of the arts, but personally have always felt seminary was a sham at schools. At my high school, the seminary students described it as ‘break’ period, and other friends would skip it until they got dropped, after which they simply had a ‘free’ period. I think if seminary conflicts with increased math and science credits and academic extracurricular classes, then seminary ought to be removed from the school day and transformed into an after-school activity.
It’ll be a sad future in Idaho if we let seminary classes prevent us from strengthening our kids, state, and nation.
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Comments
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0 
0 Perhaps some good news this year!
Today’s PR reports the Senate Education Committee voted 7-1 to increase math and science standards up to three courses of each as a graduation requirement.
The full legislature needs to vote on it, but 7-1 in the committee is a good sign.
However, don’t students need 4 courses of both math and science to enter Idaho colleges, or is it 3? If 3, we would match up to college level, if 4 then we still have to increase the requirement.
The PR the other day had a very sad article that should be reprinted and enlarged to hang all around our state.
It described a Microsoft executive admonishing Idaho to increase our public education system or risk not keeping nor attracting technology companies.
The executive pointed out they had been trying for 9 months to fill two technician jobs in Idaho. They could neither find anyone local with the right skills nor could convince anyone with those skills to move to Idaho.
Why wouldn’t anyone move to Idaho for a high paying job? The reason given was because nobody wanted to give their children the “second rate education” that we offer in Idaho!
Ouch.
Now our legislators can and will ignore the people until the the end of days, but they seem to listen to business people.
Hopefully they will listen to that business person and ratchet up the investments in our future.
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0 0 The full legislature doesn’t need to vote on it, Joe. This was a vote on rules. In order to reject the rules, both the House and Senate Ed committees would have had to reject them. Since the Senate Ed committee approved them, they’ll take effect.
Of course, we could end up like last year where the House barely approved them after two months of arm-twisting, only to have JFAC refuse to provide funding to implement them. More math and science is going to require recruiting and retaining more highly qualified teachers (that may be tough considering the premiums that Wyoming and Nevada are offering), and more expensive labs. Watch the money next month and in March…at least this year, the funding needs will be known well in advance.
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0 0 Awesome! Or maybe, depending on what JFAC does then.
Man you are really smart on these things, you should consider writing an article.
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0 0 I strongly believe that the seminary system, as it exists in Idaho, is unconstitutional. We are essentially allowing the Board of Education to break the law, allowing kids to leave school grounds during school hours (against the law!) to attend religious education.
Look, take seminary if you want, but don’t insult my laws in doing so. Seminary should be taken in the morning before school or after, as it is done in other more sensible parts of the country.
If religions like LDS and Presbyterians (both of which participate in unconstitutional conduct at Idaho Falls HS alone) want to include religious instructing during school hours, they should found parochial schools, such as the New Hope Lutheran on 12th st.
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0 0 I wouldn’t call it “unconstitutional”. You are voluntarily taking these courses. If you don’t want to take seminary, then fine. But how can you claim that it “insults your laws”? I think that is pushing it.
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0 0 I believe they call it “Separation of Church and State”. If students are allowed to use normally scheduled school hours to attend and participate in religious education (especially if they are receiving humanities credits for it as they do in some of the smaller schools in SE Idaho), then it seems like an obvious overstepping of the Constitution.
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0 0 Exactly. The separation of Church and State is a commonly misunderstood concept in America - it doesn’t mean that we cannot allow someone to pray in school, it means that we cannot officially adopt prayer. It doesn’t mean that we cannot allow practice of religion, it means that the State cannot have ANYTHING to do with the free expression thereof. So we have a problem - Mormon and Christian seminary is the State advocating religious instruction RATHER than the State’s LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL OBLIGATION to provide public education.
It violates that supreme law of the land by allowing the state to ADVOCATE Mormon and Christian teachings.
Seminary in and of itself is not unconstitutional, the State’s advocation and supplementation of seminary is.
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0 0 The State is not advocating any religion in the use of what is called “release time”. It is an elective credit anyone can use, for any approved reason. They dont get a grade, but if a student had a job they could use “release time” to work. If they wanted to study basket weaving off campus they could. Any Church can, and many do take advantage of this program. I would guess only a very small percentage of Idaho students use “release time” to attend LDS Seminary. Having never participated in this activity I dont think, in fact I know the LDS Seminary program is not driving down the academic standards of Idaho’s public schools. I don’t know why people want to blame Churches for the ills of public education. These same folks see nothing wrong with public schools teaching the the normality of same sex marrages or trans-gendering, etc. In fact these classes are demanded by some who think our children should be enlightened.
These “release time” activities are done off school property, tax payers are not burdened. Get over it.
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0 0 Civilization’s need for the teaching of moral values and of the fine arts is every bit as crucial as the teaching of math and science.
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0 0 I guess I stirred the religion pot accidentally.
I have no problem with seminary, except if it gets in the way of taking more math and science courses.
My wife pointed out to me that seminary is an elective, just like the other wonderful electives. Rocky Mountain Middle School offers electives on things like snowboarding and fly tying. Those are Zen experiences if there are any.
I only have a problem with any electives if they get in the way of what our kids need, which are more science, math, and technology courses.
The school administrator quoted above had whined about those extra requirements taking away electives, and she specifically identified seminary and choir as examples, which then got this whole seminary debate going on. Seminary is an elective, which are throw-away credits anyways. Seminary is not the problem with Idaho’s dismal state of education.
The real issue is the fact that Idaho badly needs to raise our education goals, standards, and methods.
The people have said it for years, and now high tech business people are saying it.
When will Idaho’s legislature face the reality and stop forfeiting Idaho’s future?
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0 0 If we’re going to continue to tout ourselves as the greatest nation in the world, we might want to actually fulfill the braggadocio and produce students who don’t rank in the mid to lower pack of worldwide achievement…..
FWIW
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0 0 “Civilization’s need for the teaching of moral values and of the fine arts is every bit as crucial as the teaching of math and science.”
“The State is not advocating any religion in the use of what is called “release timeâ€. It is an elective credit anyone can use, for any approved reason. They dont get a grade, but if a student had a job they could use “release time†to work. If they wanted to study basket weaving off campus they could. Any Church can, and many do take advantage of this program. I would guess only a very small percentage of Idaho students use “release time†to attend LDS Seminary.”
This is my thought - separation of church and state was basically designed to ensure equal opportunities and non-bias pertaining to religion in any part of public education. By keeping religion our of school curriculam - altogether - the Constitution is attempting to ensure that schools do not become a breeding ground for religious bias or descrimination. I have been all across SE Idaho - from Montpelier to Dubois, and am familiar with “release time” and the variety of activities that are available to students to consume that small amount of time daily. This is where the issues lie - I believe. If a student is allowed to use school time (free time, release time, lunch time - whatever it may be - it’s still time allotted by the state for furthering general education for students) to participate in a non-secular education program, regardless of the providing organization/entity, then these opportunities being sanctioned by public schools are by nature for some students and not for others. That is descrimination - if I am Aethiest or Wicken, and there is no opportunity for me to attend a similar educational gathering during my school houred release time, as the Mormon folks have Seminary - then I am being descriminated against - that is bottom line the definition of the logic behind the Constitutional separation of Church and State. There are plenty of opportunities for family and friends and religious organizations to teach and better the moral fabric of today’s youth. Developing our youth into quality, moral people is the job of a child’s family - not his/her school. And by the way - who is one to say exactly what constitutes correct moral values? I am a devout Christian - but the law is designed to provide equal footing and opportunity for everyone - not just those organizations who have the money to fund a religious education program to be provided to a segregated few who choose to attend it. And last but not least - go sit out in front of IF High and see what percentage of kids attend LDS seminary during the day. They are far from being the minority of students that attend school there.
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0 0 Let’s say, for the sake of your argument, that we close all the seminaries in District 91 tomorrow. What are you going to do with all those classrooms full of students? Where will you put them? Who will teach them? Where will the money come from to facilitate the influx?
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0 0 Just Wondering - Put them into real classes like math, science, fine arts, english … you know, education. I’m not talking about shutting down seminary (again, that would be unconstitutional!), but it is an insult to the common American to use school time to spread religion.
And for the record, this concept of “released time” is a joke - calling something by a different name doesn’t change what it really is. Saying “Oh, well, any religion can establish a seminary” doesn’t phase the argument at all - it’s not Mormonism we have issues with, it’s the state sponsoring religion through this process of “released time”.
And to the person mentioning moral values - since when has any organized religion been any good at promoting moral values?
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0 0 Jeremyplo,
You either missed or are avoiding my question. Adding a dozen classrooms full of students to our schools in the middle of the day requires empty rooms, extra teachers and relevant supplies simply to house the students. Figure up in your head what that will cost the district and then tell me where it will come from. Just a practical question–not religious at all.
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0 0 Ummm, seminary buildings don’t contain dozens of classrooms, do they? I always thought they had like 1 or 2 classrooms. So you would only have to disperse two classrooms of students across the dozens of existing classrooms per period. Yes it would crowd already overcrowded classrooms, but I don’t think it’s as difficult as posed.
But again, I don’t think seminary is the root of Idaho’s education problem.
Has anyone heard of this “international bachelor’s degree” that some high schools aim their students towards? At the end of their high school time, some students graduate with both their diploma and this bachelor degree.
I don’t know that it would give students a huge leg up, but I think it gives the education system a higher goal to attain.
What do you think?
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0 0 Actually there are from three to six classrooms in each of the LDS seminary buildings in the two local districts, not full every hour. So if you take four high schools and four junior highs, plus a classroom or two from other denominations, you could conceivably add a dozen classes per district. A very real expense.
Regarding your other question, there are many very exciting ideas floating around about ways to get out of boring and traditional educational arrangements, the kinds of ideas that challenge student’s reasoning and problem solving abilities, not just rote memorization. Real education. Some even dispense with high school. I keep hoping there will be some brave legislators who will approve some exploratory programs in districts around the state so we can see what works and what doesn’t. Time for fresh air and sunshine in our education system. We have great teachers and outstanding students, but we’re stuck in a traditional rut. (In my humble but correct opinion.)
And speaking of innovation, how about a one-university system in Idaho, with a campus in each sizeable city? Each campus could specialize rather than compete. Surely it would save money. What do you think?
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0 0 When I worked at a small high school, we tried to overcome this issue by BEGGING the seminary heads to hold at least one early (0 hour) seminary class, mostly to allow room in the schedules for high honors students who were trying to take all the high level and best classes they could, but still needed seminary. I felt we had a legit argument.
The local seminary teacher was for it, but when he went to the heads that be, whoever they are, they shot it down and continued to do so every year we tried. We had taken the time to poll students to see if we would have enough for a 0 hour, and had also considered where one period a day would absorb back into the classrooms. (keeping in mind seminary teachers had a prep hour or two) We were ready if they were. The exact reason for saying no was never relayed to us but the seminary teacher hinted it was pretty dumb.
Yes the law does allow for one release time each day, but a good portion of students want to take seminary to get into any BYU campus. I can respect this b/c admission into especially BYU Utah is very competitive now. Others are forced to take it by their parents. I did not enjoy parents and students in my office arguing over seminary, each trying to get me to help them, and all I could say was “sorry, I have to stay out of this one, it’s your decision.”
There must be something the church heads can do to alleviate some of this problem.
But remember everyone, it’s not just seminary. Drama, musical, fly tying, and more need to be looked at when the requirements go up.
I actually had to debate a student why taking more math and science was necessary for college when she insisted on drama and sewing every semester so she wouldn’t have a hard schedule. This from a girl who wanted to be a doctor. Yikes!!!!
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0 0 I am glad to hear you advocate education geared towards producing students that can think, because most of the NCLB and ISAT tests are geared towards that rote memorization you mention.
I imagine we’ll have to leave the experimental stuff to the charter schools. Most public school parents won’t want radical experiments on their children until those are proven methods.
I don’t know that a one-university system would save that much money, and there is money to be made in their unique identities and cultures (sports tickets, alumni donations, etc.)
I’ve always wondered why the state doesn’t consolidate the school payroll systems to save money?
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0 0 Just Wondering - When I attended Seminary in 2001, our building had two classrooms. I attended Idaho Falls high school.
I just don’t see how the argument of class crowding can hold any water - Seminary was not created to alleviate classroom crowding, and this argument stinks of rationalization and begging the question! If you moved seminary to before or after school, you would not see more class crowding, you would more likely see lower class sized (my logic here: if a student has seven credits in the day rather than six, the student will be able to spread his classes out, rather than clump his/her core classes in order to accommodate seminary. On the whole, this will lead to smaller class sizes, and thus, a better learning environment. Think of it as spreading peanut butter, okay? If you have a larger piece of bread (7 credits in a day), the peanut butter will be less thick (lower classroom sizes) than if you were spreading on a smaller piece of bread (six credits per day).
Besides, we still haven’t really addressed the constitutionality question - isn’t the state allowing for religious instruction during state-provided school time against the separation of church and state?
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0 0 isn’t the state allowing for religious instruction during state-provided school time against the separation of church and state?
Well, if that’s what was happening, it might be unconstitutional, but you’re begging the question.
AFAIK, there’s nothing in Idaho statutes to provide a basis for “state-provided school time”. School Boards are required to set “the hours of the day when schools shall be in session.” Their only real constraint is that they need to provide at least the minimum number of instructional hours for graduation. So there’s nothing preventing them from scheduling intra-day breaks, and campuses aren’t required to be closed.
And the release time law very clearly allows for “religious or other purposes” (emphasis mine), prohibits the use of school facilities, personnel, or equipment for religious instruction, and prohibits giving credit for religious instruction (credit may be given for non-religious instruction). So there’s no entanglement between the religion and the goverment there.
Nobody’s forced by the state to participate in release time - parents or students of majority have to apply for it. The law simply requires school districts to make reasonable scheduling accommodation of up to 5 periods per week for anyone who asks.
The peanut butter analogy is unrealistic. Since funding is based on the required instructional hours, the alternative to release time is simply a shorter scheduled school day. That could conceivably hurt students, especially those taking advanced classes, since with fewer periods, scheduling would have to be less flexible.
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0 0 Not according to the U.S. Supreme Court. In Zorach v. Clauson, a case heard before the court in 1952, the court upheld the constitutionality of “Released Time” programs in public schools. Read about it at this link:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/browse2002.html#2004
This is from the (US) Government Printing Office, which publishes, among many other things, Supreme Court interpretations of the Constitution. Scroll down the page and read the PDF concerning the First Amendment. Look at pages 35 and 36 of the PDF for the relevant court cases.
As far as the conflict between elective courses — religious or not — versus required courses, I think the addition of required courses in math and science is great. Even at the expense of seminary and choir. The US has a deficit of people trained in these disciplines. We ought not to fall behind.
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0 0 Is the Mormon Church that powerful? Just think if Idaho eliminated Seminary (aka Release Time), and add math and science courses for these LDS students. They will save us from the Chinese and Muslims taking over the world. WOW what power the LDS Church has.
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0 0 Is the issue of whether or not we should add more required courses in Math and Science being clouded by prejudice against the LDS church? The District 25 administrator’s comments were unfortunate, but I have to wonder if they were quoted in context. Our elected and appointed officials are supposed to represent the will of the people, and if, in his area, he is receiving a lot of pressure to maintain choir and seminary, one can understand his remark. On the East Coast, many of the elective courses in choir, art, drama etc., were cancelled out of the curriculum for monetary reasons and it was learned over the years that the loss of these courses was detrimental to the student’s education. Musically inclined students tend to do better in math, that’s been proven in various studies.
I would hope our discussion on this topic, which should be solely about whether or not to add these courses, will not be tainted by the obvious animosity towards the religion that finds itself in conflict with the issue. The people I have spoken with about this, many of whom are LDS, have no objection to adding the courses. HOWEVER, they do worry about the loss of religious instruction that would be the inevitable result. I can’t blame them for their concern. I find their dedication to their faith admirable and sympathize with the tough choice they face in determining what to do.
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0 0 Far be it from me to beat a dead horse, but for the sake of accuracy, there are currently 23 seminary classrooms in the two school districts in the Idaho Falls area–four at Idaho Falls, Jeremy.
Aside from all other arguments, which I would love to weigh in on, but won’t, this is a genuine consideration. Ask your local administrator.
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0 0 Buzz - I failed to catch the point of your reply. I don’t think we need to be “saved” from the Chines or Muslims (I should note that I disagree with your hateful tone here), but we should focus on providing a quality education for our children, as provided in the constitution. It’s not about nationalism, it’s about the state fulfilling its duties.
Brian Davidson - interesting read. I disagree with the conclusion, but precedent is precedent, so I guess the unconstitutional argument has been settled - “released time” is constitutional.
However, as a future educator, I still can’t feel like it’s wrong. I believe in schools, and I believe that public schooling has the ability to create fine, upstanding citizens, and I feel that allowing 1/7th of a student’s education to be taken away and replaced with religious instruction is just a travesty. I don’t believe that allowing religion to instruct students is more important than even the most liberal of arts humanities class.
[I should note that I am Christian and am also against Christian Seminary "released time" classes while a student is on State time. It's not a Mormon thing, it's about what is right and best for the student!]
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0 0 JeremyPlo, does this imply that you are studying to become a public teacher/educator, or something other than that…
why is religious instruction a travesty?… or are you saying it is wrong to use religious instruction in place of math, science, english, etc. a travesty?
does religious instruction have no redeeming value in your opinion?
and are you an expert in knowing what is “right and best for the student”
and if you are an expert in this field, what are your credentials and experience?
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0 0 JeremyPlo, I was responding to a statement made by Joe Vandal in his original article:
“Seminary and choir classes are great for personal enrichment, but will do little good to helping Idaho and America in the global economic race. If this administrator is so concerned about seminary and choir, then she may as well start teaching Islamic religion and Chinese hymns. Those two cultures will soon dominate our world because they have been emphasising math and science while we traded for seminary and choir.”
I was simply trying to point out how incredible it is that LDS Seminary and Choir in Idaho is some how the cause of the piss poor education system in America. I think the focus was sifted to Seminary when is should maybe be we have to many “elective courses” or do we need elective courses as a whole. If I take seminary, woodworking, auto shop, or what ever other elective is available be of course it takes away from math and science. Why are we putting the microscope on seminary? My guess is just some deep seated bias. And how was my tone hateful? And if it was, whats that to you? Please dont’t give me the mantra of the 90’s “I am offended”!
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0 0 I think the microscope got focused on seminary because of that Blackfoot school official used seminary as one of her arguments against increased math and science courses.
She really could have described any elective as an example of her opposition to more math and science courses, however she chose to wave the potential loss of seminary as the evils of increased math and science courses. Curious?
Guest_1948, Jeremy is offering his opinions, like everyone else. Nobody needs ‘credentials’ to offer their viewpoint. The quality of individual observations are more important than the credentials of the person.
And by your statement, I would say “it is wrong to use religious instruction in place of math, science, english” keywords: IN PLACE OF
Now did you really mean “in place of”?
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0 0 My “credentials”:
1) Recently graduated from High School (Six Years Ago) so I have first-hand experience with the current education system.
2) Junior at ISU with a major in History, minor in Political Science with intent to teach secondary education.
3) Voter.
4) Tax Payer.
Does my opinion count now?
As for religious instruction, yes it has value, as I’ve alluded in my replies, but its place is in the private sector, not the public schools which I supply through my taxes.
I am not an expert (whatever that means) in knowing what is right for the students, but like I’ve said, I recently went through our education system, and my opinions are formed by that, my study of the constitution, my study of our tax system, and my inside knowledge of how the education system works (albeit on a student level.)
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0 0 geez, things are getting a little heated here, I only asked about creditials because there was mention of being “…a future educator,” and I was curious if he was going to college to be a teacher or a future father in his home, they are both educators of children in my opinion… I have children and I believe I am an educator of my children…I believe all parents are.
Joe, the statement “in place of” was just the way I worded it, from what I understood when I read the post it sounded as though he was saying in place of… just one of those wordage and interpretation issues I suppose.
Anyway, I just get a little interested when someone says they know what is rignt and best for my children, which is what I read at the bottom of post #27…
is there another way to read that statement?
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0 0 Ahhh, I didn’t catch that. Yeah, that statement “it’s about what is right and best for the student!” can be construed to be the authority. Probably would have been better worded as “what i think is best…”
Maybe I misunderstood you on something. By ‘in place of’, you don’t really mean the bible could be used to teach world history, geography, english grammar, math, government, or science, right?
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0 0 of course not Joe, I was trying to re-iterate what I read in that post, however, I didn’t make it clear… gosh this whole communication stuff is interesting… hey, how about some more classes on communication, articulating in written and spoken language…
would that be considered an elective?
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0 0 Oh. I’m dumb then. derrrr 8^)
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0 0 Good luck Jeremy once you become a teacher. Are your plans to teach here in Idaho Falls? If they are your comments here will make for some interesting discussion topics for your future classes.
I’m sure you will counter the religous studies your students receive with your own view on things. I can imagine you can’t wait to get to those skulls full of mush that are out there.
If we really want to improve our math and science scores then as John suggests we will need to hire more qualified instructors. The best way to hire those qualified instructors would be to modify and lessen the entry requirements for prospective teachers. It’s a shame that we have many expert engineers and scientists that have worked at the site that have real world expierence but according to the teachers unions and teaching colleges those experts aren’t qualified to teach in our schools. What a shame. These same experts can teach in a university setting at the drop of a hat but for some reason can’t teach our skulls full of mush in our public schools unless they attend and get certification via some teaching college.
Why is this???? If they can teach at the university level why extra requirements/certifications to teach at a lower level????
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0 0 I know that this is veering from the posted topic, but… I think that decreasing entry requirements for prospective teachers is one of the worst things we could do for the state of the education system. Teaching takes special training, even at a university level it is my understanding that to do more than a guest lecture requires a Master’s of some other type of graduate studies and/or degree.
We don’t need teaching to become a professional dumping ground for those who cannot get into their first choice program, simply because its easy to do. We need teachers who are well qualified (which experts such as engineers and scientists would be) and well trained IN TEACHING (which experts such as engineers and scientists are not, generally speaking)
This is what will help our education system. Oh, and massive salary increases for teachers. If our society can tolerate $10M annual salaries for athletes, why not livable wages for teachers? But, I think that is another post, for another time…
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0 0 I agree with Rich - actually, the qualifications for teachers are quite a bit more relaxed than I thought before I applied. I am required to take 32 credit-hours of my major (history) and 15 of my minor (political science) as well as a handful of specialized teaching classes in order to be certified by the state.
Our education system could do well by the following:
1) Revoking No Child Left Behind and allow that States, as per the Constitution, to manage education, not the Federal Government.
2) Removing military and standardized testing from schools and making them voluntary for those looking to get into schools that require them.
3) Employing more counselors and student advocates.
4) Increasing teacher pay while setting caps for administrative pay. Kids aren’t taught by bureaucrats, they’re taught by teachers!
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0 0 In addition to the elective concerns and how they will fit in, be mindful of the situation with Mexican students in schools (FYI - they told us they preferred to be called Mexicans and not Hispanics). These students have so many language and behavior issues in school it boggles
my mind how they will not be more tempted than they are already to drop out. Of course I agree the requirements should go up in math and science, but these are 2 areas along with history and English classes I saw them struggle in to no end. Most didn’t make it past Algebra 1 and Biology.
Not to mention the behavior problems teachers deal with daily, parents who often have less than a 6th grade education, a language barrier, and the status of illegal students (we can’t ask if they are illegal, we have to enroll them anyway if they show proof of immunization and a birth certificate)
A disproportionate number of Mexican students end up in Special Edc classes and ESL classes, and “graduate” high school with limited capabilities, although the ISAT is changing that.
How happy I was to see several of these students try so hard to learn and hang in there despite many obstacles. The new math and science requirements will be interesting to see how they pan out with this population.
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0 0 I gotta say, as much as I am still upset that Tom Luna won’t address his blatant resume lie, I was impressed with his recommendations last week.
It makes me laugh that both our dem and rep superintendents plainly ask for more money, but only the rep is the one seen as ‘creative’ and might get funded. I guess if that’s how it works then so be it, so long as our kids get better educated.
flyonthewall: I hear your rationale, and it sounds good, but there is more training required for teaching to younger kids. Adults can relate to other adults much easier than they can to kids. We’ve all heard that people great at their trades are not necessarily the best teachers at that trade. One of the hurdles to get certified for teaching kids includes background checks, and that’s an extra requirement I wouldn’t get rid of.
The idea is nice, and maybe there’s a way to introduce these industry experts as ‘guest lecturer’s in more schools?
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0 0 I am more conserned about the quality of the teachers teaching our children then the number of credits that they take of a certain class.
I have always struggled with math. My first high school math class was Algerbra I. I had a horrible teacher. His idea of teaching was to write some numbers on the board draw some arrows and then go sit down. I learned nothing that way. Additionally, during one class this teacher went on a rampage and physically assulted several kids in the class. Ask for extra help from this guy? No way! He was put on some type of leave for a couple of weeks but after that he did finish out the school year teaching his normal classes. What is was the school boards/superintendents thinking behind that? I still don’t understand it.
Don’t get me wrong we do have some excellent teachers in Idaho Falls but some of the best educators are going to other states where the pay is better. If the schools were able to pay for better educators then the children would come out of this as winners.
On another note, I did use the release time during high school. I had it as my last period of the day so that I could go to work and get “on the job training”.
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0 0 Roxy must have had Casper as well.. lol.
My point with some of the brilliant minds that come from the site that have advanced degrees are that their talents are being wasted when they retire. Many i’m sure would love to teach high school chemisty or calculus. Some of the best college instruction I have ever received were from instructors that had real world expierence and could translate that into making complex ideas easier to understand by giving you real world applications to their instruction.
If you look into reasons why were so behind in math and science (this is nationally not locally) you will find that it’s because you have teachers teaching outside their fields in subject areas they are not proficient in. Districts accross the country have huge problems getting the qualified instructors in the complex maths and sciences.
So my point? I would rather have an over qualified real world instructor teaching my child then an out of field instructor that is so far over their head that they are not coming close to teaching even a modicum of the needed curriculum.
Anyway that’s where I was coming from.
Jeremy not to get personal, but I think your nuts to think we need more student advocates??? What the heck does that mean? You think there are not enough people in the system already not advocating for student? Brother.
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0 0 Roxy - I believe we need student advocates to help kids understand how the education system works. I remember being in high school without a clue as to what I should be doing to prepare for college - and as a result, I didn’t. I had to schedule a 5-minute appointment weeks in advance just to meet with my assigned counselor to find out which classes I still needed to graduate High School.
The problem also extends to our college system, though.
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0 0 I think this discussion is interesting. When I was in high school I took math and science and english all 4 years of high school, and I had release time during school hours. I had plenty of time to do all of it, btw, so did my husband, and the majority of our friends were the same. It was a CHOICE! I think it would be interesting, since some of you appear to believe that release time is a waste, to look at the percentage of seminary graduates, or other worthwhile release time activities. How many of those went on to college, in comparison? I would bet these kids are way more serious about their education. I believe to be great at school you need to love school and overwhelming students will not make them love school. My husband and I insist our children take as many higher level courses as they can, AP courses included. They will still have time for release time. I hear the blaming of release time for the downfall of education, but I believe that it is the emphasis that is put on education in the home that makes all the difference, not the amount of time a student spends doing an activity of choice. Maybe parents education is where the money should be spent!
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0 0 Wow Joe! You went against your own rules and brought religion back as a topic of discussion. Way to go! We’ll definately see more “heated debates” now. I mean look…it brought JeremyPlo back out of retirement! 
Interesting debate.
So is religion back on the table for open discussion, or is this a one time only religous discussion?
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0 0 Maybe you’ve already realized your initial misconception? This article was published about a year and a half ago, well before we had to stop discussing religious topics. Actually I meant this topic to be about public educators making excuses for shrugging off tougher standards. I try to be a little more careful in topics since this article.
Regarding that subject, I guess Idaho was about to enforce a tougher science test for graduation requirement, but then the board backed off to give schools more time? What do you think of that?
Or perhaps what do you think of the majority of Idaho schools not meeting Annual Yearly Progress (AYP)? One one hand, most art failing it, on the other hand everyone gives the excuse that a school fails completely if they only fail by one kid in one subject.
So what’s the point of the AYP, and perhaps more importantly, of NCLB?
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0 0 My mistake! Doh!
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0 0 Hi I am a senior at Idaho Falls High School and a consistent student in the LDS seminary. I have read your article and I believe that you have made a fine statement but you have assumed too much and lacked in the amount of research on the average Idaho LDS teen. You would suppose that seminary is simply a ‘break’ period from school and that the majority of students in seminary believe that is the case. I can assure you that majority of the seminary students don’t abuse the period to go ‘goof off’ and attempt to get kicked out. the view you showed the readers was a very distorted and warped version of the truth because in fact the majority of students that go to the LDS seminary say that, there seminary class is the most entertaining and education class of there whole schedule. Yes I do thing raising the required math and science credits would be a fine improvement but not every growth of a teenager’s life can be graded. What about there social growth or there discovery of ethics and morals. And to end this response I would like to quote one of the s
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wow! Who would ever think that seminary & choir would be more important than math and science. I grew up with early morning seminary. if our parents wanted us to take it they had to get us there then get us to school. we didn’t have the option of a free period during the day. maybe we should remove religion from our schools in idaho. we also had a closed campus for lunch. As a kid i thought this practice to be unfair adn inhumane. As an adult I would love to see that here in IF